Why Don't I hear the Genius in these new bands?

[kurdy]

And this is a bad thing because??? I'm thrilled with the correction of pop music back to where it belongs: Disposable shlock with a half life of days or weeks. The idea that the music that comes out of the radio should have some kinda high-minded or socially redeeming artistic value is some bull{censored} baggage thrust upon the culture by dope-smoking, draft-dodging Baby Boomer's that took Sgt. Pepper's way to {censored}ing seriously. Popular music is not important. Adult people understood that four or five decades ago. But you morons were tricked into thinking otherwise by some of the most {censored}ing brilliant marketers this planet has ever seen. Pop music is and should be the Pixy stix of mass art.

 

 

I agree with this to a point. But I don’t necessarily want pop music to be disposable, mindless drivel about partying, getting laid and dancing the night away. To me, that can be just as boring as anything. I like to hear that the songwriter put some thought into what they are trying to say. I appreciate clever lyrics or turns of phrase. I don’t think a song with deep meaning or a socially conscious message is a bad thing. Listen to Stevie Wonder’s ‘70s output for examples of how to do it right.

 

The problem comes in when it forgets to be entertaining. I’m not interested in a guy strumming an acoustic guitar and pontificating about the state of the world for six minutes. I want to feel like moving, clapping or at least singing along. If the music doesn’t make me want to do that, then I’m not interested in hearing what the artist has to say. So this is where I agree with you. To me, the correct idea should be that pop music must be entertaining, first and foremost. Then, if an artist wants to throw a message on top of it, that’s just the icing on the cake. As long as the lyrics aren’t overtly dumb, I’m fine with it. But if the music’s boring, there’s no excuse for that, IMHO. Otherwise, you might as well be listening to someone recite poetry.

[flatfinger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesterday_%28song%29

 

 

 

"Yesterday" is the most recorded song in the history of popular music; its entry in Guinness World Records suggests over 1,600 different cover versions to date

 

 

 

 

All the other performing artist who have recorded this song for instance, did it simply because because they thought they "had too". And ; they were of course , all sell-outs..........

 

 

.

[daddymack]

And this is a bad thing because??? I'm thrilled with the correction of pop music back to where it belongs: Disposable shlock with a half life of days or weeks. The idea that the music that comes out of the radio should have some kinda high-minded or socially redeeming artistic value is some bull{censored} baggage thrust upon the culture by dope-smoking, draft-dodging Baby Boomer's that took Sgt. Pepper's way to {censored}ing seriously. Popular music is not important. Adult people understood that four or five decades ago. But you morons were tricked into thinking otherwise by some of the most {censored}ing brilliant marketers this planet has ever seen. Pop music is and should be the Pixy stix of mass art.

Your historical perspective is off again, Maxie...

 

The perpetrators of the high-minded socially-aware thinking toward popular music rests squarely at the feet of the media pundits...the reviewers who made their nut writing about pop music. Yes, those jag-offs at Rolling Stone, the Robert Hilburns, those guys...they foisted this 'artier than thou' schtick on the masses...not the musicians, not the listeners. They learned it from the movie reviewers who decided that it was not enough for films to entertain, they had to be art...and have social value in order to be truly worthwhile...and of course, they in turn had learned this from the book reviewers...

[richardmac]

Correct as usual, King Daddymack. It WAS the critics. I noticed the hypocrisy at a very young age - when Rolling Stone put out books of critiques and the critiques of, say, The Doors changed from year to year to reflect the resurgence in their popularity. I learned not to trust critics at all. I have more to say but I have to leave to go run a 5k at USF. More later.

[flatfinger]

Critics are to artist as dogs are to fire hydrants !!

[richardmac]

Back. Ran crappy in the 5k - I obviously need to train more. Anyway, when we talk about pop music we are really talking about two different things sometimes - pop music as in popular, as in the Billboard Top 100, or pop music as in the upbeat, disposal, beat driven music with candy coated melodies. Metal bands have gone #1 before and were very popular but not pop. It's confusing to have a genre and a different classification with the same name.

[Greg_L]

All the other performing artist who have recorded this song for instance, did it simply because because they thought they "had too". And ; they were of course , all sell-outs.......... .

 

 

Pretty much. And everyone knows that mass appeal equals good. I mean, hell, Britney Spears sells lots of records. She must be a great songwriter and musician. Miley Cyrus too. Lol.

 

There's no reason for anyone to be offended over my total dislike and disrespect of the Beatles. You weren't in the band and have nothing to do with them. I understand that everyone feels they need to like them, but I'm not that guy. Your feigned outrage is dumb.

[richardmac]

 

Pretty much. And everyone knows that mass appeal equals good. I mean, hell, Britney Spears sells lots of records. She must be a great songwriter and musician. Miley Cyrus too. Lol. There's no reason for anyone to be offended over my total dislike and disrespect of the Beatles. You weren't in the band and have nothing to do with them. I understand that everyone feels they need to like them, but I'm not that guy. Your feigned outrage is dumb.

 

 

People weren't offended because you don't like the Beatles. People are offended because of the way you express your opinions. Such as the above quote where you call everyone "dumb." You can't come into the forum and just start insulting people. Well, you can, but you'll end up banned.

[flatfinger]

Of course you didn't quote the most relevant FACT of the post ...

"Yesterday" is the most recorded song in the history of popular music; its entry in Guinness World Records suggests over 1,600 different cover versions to date

You can't argue with the success,
( well actually, you can if......)

1.) you have ever matched it , or

2.) you just want to come of as a troll )

[flatfinger]

Pretty much. And everyone knows that mass appeal equals good. I mean, hell, Britney Spears sells lots of records. She must be a great songwriter and musician. Miley Cyrus too. Lol.

 

 

 

 

The weakness of this spurrious analogy lies in the fact that there will never ever be anything like 1600 artist who feel compelled to interperet a cover of those songs .

You are simply proving what I said to begin with , that is that short term commercial successes are not as releveant of a measuring stick as the test of time .

 

Go ahead and hate the beatles , I don't know why you think any one cares if you do . Just don't make the stupid jump of concluding that their compositions have lasted this long and have been successfull ( NOT JUST IN $$$) because people are sheep .They have a greater artistic merit , and , they will be rememberd and played long after any britnet Spears or M . Cyrus tune ever will . It's just a fact .

[Greg_L]

Go ahead and hate the beatles , I don't know why you think any one cares if you do . .

 

 

Because people like you get angry about it and then go ape{censored} trying to prove me wrong. I don't know why you guys act this way.

 

I hate the Beatles. They were a girly pop group that consistently ripped people off. It's nothing to get mad about.

[Greg_L]

People weren't offended because you don't like the Beatles. People are offended because of the way you express your opinions. Such as the above quote where you call everyone "dumb." You can't come into the forum and just start insulting people. Well, you can, but you'll end up banned.

 

 

I didn't call anyone dumb. I said "feigned outrage", which is exactly what it is, is dumb. READ THE ACTUAL WORDS. Don't let your emotions screw up your reading comprehension. It's just words on a screen, but if you wanna react, read and understand them first.

[richardmac]

 

I didn't call anyone dumb. I said "feigned outrage", which is exactly what it is, is dumb. READ THE ACTUAL WORDS. Don't let your emotions screw up your reading comprehension. It's just words on a screen, but if you wanna react, read and understand them first.

 

 

You're still insulting. You're missing my entire point. I give up. I'm going to ignore you now, so say whatever you want to.

[Greg_L]

You're still insulting. You're missing my entire point. I give up. I'm going to ignore you now, so say whatever you want to.

 

 

Lol. How am I being insulting? I just don't want you to misinterpret what I'm saying. I know how things can be misconstrued through the cold anonymity of the internet.

[richardmac]

Fortunately I'm not the grammar and spelling police.

[Greg_L]

Dont mindd Rmac he's the polite police...

It's cool. I'm not bothered by his passive-aggressive attempts at insulting me. I'm a man. I just laugh it off.

[richardmac]

OK, here's the summary, since you asked. I'm not trying to insult you, by the way. I'm trying to make you understand why four different people in this thread were annoyed by you.

Short Version:

You said the following about various forum members - their opinions didn't matter, they couldn't think for themselves, they had dumb opinions, they are clueless, probably suckasses, crybabies, made dumb statements, and didn't actually read posts.


Long Version:

You started by saying that the music I'd listed as liking was "Total garbage" and "total {censored}." I didn't like that and I said so. Then instead of disagreeing with sventvkg, you simply told him that he was biased and his opinion was flawed and didn't matter. (Insulting)

Then you implied that the people in the thread liked the Beatles because think they were supposed to and couldn't think for themselves. (Insulting)

Then you got back to me and told me to "Get off of the ledge." (Insulting or perhaps just rude)

At this point a second person, Poker99, told you to take your {censored} elsewhere.

Then you said the entire discussion was stupid, which actually might be the one thing I agreed with. Then you suggested we all had dumb opinions. (Maybe not insulting so much as just rude.)

At this point, sventvkg suggested that you keep posting your opinions because they were outlandish and it was entertaining him. That was him insulting you, probably in retribution for when you told him his opinion was wrong and didn't matter. A third person had essentially challenged you.

Then you told sventvkg that he was clueless. (Insulting)

Then a generic comment about the fact that you are not a suckass - a general insult to perhaps some people in the thread? Hard to tell.

Then you implied that some of us in the thread were internet crybabies. (Insulting)

Now a fourth person challenged you (flatfinger, the Music Biz Resident Cynic.)

So you told flatfinger that his feigned outrage was dumb. (Insulting. Telling someone their thoughts or actions are dumb is an insult.)

Next I suggested that you were annoying people. You responded by telling me that my emotions were screwing up my reading comprehension and I didn't understand what you were saying, which wasn't true. I will take that one back - that's not insulting, just annoying.

So four people told you that you were insulting or annoying and you still don't get it. Take any one of the above scenarios and it's not really all that bad. But you did them all in the same thread!

If it was just me being overly sensitive, three other people wouldn't have also complained. I don't know what else to say.

[flatfinger]

I appreciate the heartfelt concern , but I'm not angry ;


In addition to being the resident cynic , I have been rewarded for my stellar performance in that capacity around here ................


Now , I am given the additional duties of being the cluttered rhetoric-logical fallacy police ..... I can already guess who will be spending the most time in the lock up


.

[sventvkg]

Greg is a funny dude..Definitely has a contrary opinion to most and that's cool. The only thing that bothers people here about that is the fact that he should just realize he's on the edge and most people aren't going to agree with him but instead he chooses to fight everyone and try to prove that he's in fact the enlightened one. The rest of us are somehow clueless...I find this amusing as I told him:)

Greg, I say chill brother..

[flatfinger]

Greg is a funny dude..Definitely has a contrary opinion to most and that's cool. The only thing that bothers people here about that is the fact that he should just realize he's on the edge and most people aren't going to agree with him but instead he chooses to fight everyone and try to prove that he's in fact the enlightened one. The rest of us are somehow clueless...I find this amusing as I told him:) Greg, I say chill brother..

All Hail the Enlightened one !

[richardmac]

Greg is a funny dude..Definitely has a contrary opinion to most and that's cool. The only thing that bothers people here about that is the fact that he should just realize he's on the edge and most people aren't going to agree with him but instead he chooses to fight everyone and try to prove that he's in fact the enlightened one. The rest of us are somehow clueless...I find this amusing as I told him:) Greg, I say chill brother..

Don't forget insulting everyone and then saying "What did I say?" He comes across as a bit of a bully, and can't tell the difference between people disagreeing with his opinion vs disagreeing with his personality. Which is combative. I tried to take myself out of the conversation, but that whole "what did I do" routine made me list it out. When four people complain about you in the same thread, there's not much to debate. In the face of being presented with the evidence, will he continue to not be able to see his error, or will he want to continue debating it? Or will he keep annoying everyone until he gets banned?

Ironically he had a few points I almost agreed with. The Beatles might be the most important "rock" band ever, and some of their songs WILL be around 100 years from now, but they also had more than their fare share of fillers and stinkers. Some of their songs are borderline awful. The punk stuff in the 70's was not appealing to me at all but it was very important because it sort of challenged the whole rock and pop scene. I feel the same way about Nirvana - I did not think Cobain was much of a singer or musician, I didn't buy the album, I did not agree with the hype. But it served the same death blow to big hair metal that punk had served to rock in the 70's. As a music fan I can dislike the music but appreciate it's role. It's kind of interesting stuff to talk about.

I'm more mad at Pearl Jam, actually. Ever since Pearl Jam we've had thousands of gravel voiced singers trying to sound like them.

[daddymack]

[flatfinger]

LOL! While I try to remain sensitive to that touchy subject called musicianship , I gotta say there is a big gap between it and technicianship. I hear a lot of the latter, if not most of it, and if I'm interpreting sventvkg right, it scratches at my soul but doesn't embrace it. Tommy Emmanuel is a helluva technician but he has yet to show me soul. I'll probably get drawn and quartered for saying that but while his skills are remarkable, he puts no fire inside me. I give him 5 minutes and I'm done. I chose him as an example because AFAIK he's at the top of that technically proficient hierarchy of players who dominate with technical prowess from the head and hands and yet leave all but the guitarists/musicians in their audiences adrift of emotion. Come down to the band level and, lyrically, the same occurs. The technical aspects are covered at the expense of, what amounts to, audience fulfillment. I'm chalking that up to a couple things. First, there's a general lack of heart in much of the music and I think it's from the lure of money. Technically astute players, who don't have anything but that, are chasing wealth with skills. Now is a great chance to do that because, second, emotional expression, which is the basis for writing songs, is becoming an optional aspect of writing. Music is following society's example and as people become further and further splintered and isolated from each other - friends, neighbors, families, communities - the old emotional commitments and their open displays of expressing them begin to ebb. This latest generation, the wobble butts, are happy to sit all day long texting, gaming, web surfing and generally anything that can be done on their butts rather than their feet. Meaning, if you aren't with people anymore, you won't have the opportunity to express emotion face-to-face or observe it. Sitting all day reading or typing text is almost wholly isolated from that kind of emotion and when you're raised on a keyboard you become adrift of person-to-person emotional contact, and even prefer it. My kid (17) made that statement to me just a couple months back regarding that last part. So, the music follows the pattern. It's okay to vocally or instrumentally growl, and the louder you are the more you'll be heard above the apathy. Louder apathy is the result and that doesn't require musicianship. Technicianship suffices.

 

 

Other than the lost art of the paragraph ; Spot on.

 

 

Music , and songwriting ( the worlds second oldest profession ) should be about communicating emotion ............................ Otherwise , we should just program algorithms to generate random music according to mathmatical equasions . There's no reason to have humans involved in generating music if it has no emotional content .

[kurdy]

LOL! While I try to remain sensitive to that touchy subject called musicianship , I gotta say there is a big gap between it and technicianship. I hear a lot of the latter, if not most of it, and if I'm interpreting sventvkg right, it scratches at my soul but doesn't embrace it. Tommy Emmanuel is a helluva technician but he has yet to show me soul. I'll probably get drawn and quartered for saying that but while his skills are remarkable, he puts no fire inside me. I give him 5 minutes and I'm done. I chose him as an example because AFAIK he's at the top of that technically proficient hierarchy of players who dominate with technical prowess from the head and hands and yet leave all but the guitarists/musicians in their audiences adrift of emotion. Come down to the band level and, lyrically, the same occurs. The technical aspects are covered at the expense of, what amounts to, audience fulfillment. I'm chalking that up to a couple things. First, there's a general lack of heart in much of the music and I think it's from the lure of money. Technically astute players, who don't have anything but that, are chasing wealth with skills. Now is a great chance to do that because, second, emotional expression, which is the basis for writing songs, is becoming an optional aspect of writing. Music is following society's example and as people become further and further splintered and isolated from each other - friends, neighbors, families, communities - the old emotional commitments and their open displays of expressing them begin to ebb. This latest generation, the wobble butts, are happy to sit all day long texting, gaming, web surfing and generally anything that can be done on their butts rather than their feet. Meaning, if you aren't with people anymore, you won't have the opportunity to express emotion face-to-face or observe it. Sitting all day reading or typing text is almost wholly isolated from that kind of emotion and when you're raised on a keyboard you become adrift of person-to-person emotional contact, and even prefer it. My kid (17) made that statement to me just a couple months back regarding that last part. So, the music follows the pattern. It's okay to vocally or instrumentally growl, and the louder you are the more you'll be heard above the apathy. Louder apathy is the result and that doesn't require musicianship. Technicianship suffices.

I think you are right on about technical prowess often coming at the expense of emotion–not that there isn’t a place for that stuff, but you do risk alienating much of your audience. Most people are interested in music that communicates an emotion, not showing off how fast you can play a bunch of notes.

However, I think that is the opposite issue that most mainstream music has. (I admit, I had to google Tommy Emmanuel, because I’ve never even heard of him.) I think the trend in modern pop music these days is that there is less technical skill and musicianship involved, and it’s gotten simpler and simpler. I think that trend started sometime in the 90’s with the rise of hip-hop, and alternative rock bands like Nirvana, where technical virtuosity took a back seat, and it’s been going that way ever since. It’s similar to the effect punk had toward the end of the ‘70s. However, I don’t believe that’s been to the music’s detriment, because you strip that away, and it becomes easier to tell whether or not the song is any good. If the songs aren’t good, artists can’t rely on flashy musical tricks to cover it up. I hate to bring up the Beatles again, but they weren’t popular because they were great musicians. Their parts were relatively simple to play, but it was their songs that endeared them to such a wide audience. Their good songs, anyway.

Now if we can just outlaw all the unnecessary vocal melismas and acrobatics that so many singers seem to feel the need to use these days...

[Greg_L]

OK, here's the summary, since you asked. I'm not trying to insult you, by the way. I'm trying to make you understand why four different people in this thread were annoyed by you. Short Version: You said the following about various forum members - their opinions didn't matter, they couldn't think for themselves, they had dumb opinions, they are clueless, probably suckasses, crybabies, made dumb statements, and didn't actually read posts. .

 

I stand by all of that. Just my opinion. Put me on ignore or go curl up on the couch with a warm blankey and cry if it bothers you. How do you even function as an adult if stuff like this bothers you so deeply?

 

There's no way I'm reading your phone-book sized long version, but I'm gonna assume it's a bunch of whining, so it's probably best for your emotional well being that I don't read it.