Making your Digi or MOTU suddenly sound a lot better (modification)

[UstadKhanAli]

I don't know these people and have absolutely nothing to gain by blabbing about them. I was perusing the TapeOp boards and saw several posts raving about modifications Black Lion did to their MOTU or Digi001 and Digi002 converters. I Googled them. They don't have very much on their web site, but I figgered I'd mention them in case this helps anybody.

 

Black Lion Audio

[Musibaldo]

thankx

[offramp]

I've been hemming and hawing about doing the BLA mod to my 896. The biggest reason I stall on it is because this is the second unit I've had...the first one had a major power supply failure, and I'd hate to drop the cash on this mod only to have something like this happen again.

The other side of this is external clocks. I've been eyeing a few of them, and I'm wondering if using one would improve my audio that much; seems to me that the 896 would never fully let itself be controlled by an external. I don't know, it's just a gut feeling.

[blue2blue]

I am VERY much not convinced by BLA and some other modders from what I've read. At first blush, it's intriguing. But read up.

 

They often do things like replace audio op amps with video op amps.

 

Why?

 

Because they have so much better frequency response...

 

Yep, exactly what I want kicking around my system -- 100 kHz RF crap.

 

The people who designed the gear that BLA and others make their money modding are actual experienced design EEs who presumably know what they were doing in the first place.

 

A lot of modders are simply guys with some soldering skills and a few catalogs of ICs, opamps, and so on.

 

 

Check out what digital design legend Dan Lavry has to say about some of these modders in his PSW forum some time.

[UstadKhanAli]

I didn't see the Dan Lavry's mention of BLA and other modders, but I did come across these two choice quotes, which I'll of course share:

 

 

bobkatz wrote on Sat, 02 October 2004 21:40

 

An external clock is a bandaid for a "cure" which can only be done properly within a good converter design. In fact, any converter which does not perform equally as good or BETTER on internal clock than external is also defective.

 

~~~

 

danlavry wrote on Sat, 02 October 2004 22:54

 

A mediocre internal crystal implementation is going to outdo even a good external clock implementation.

 

From whence the quotes came...

[blue2blue]

Yeah. Lavry's been at the front of the let's start getting real movement. You've probably seen Digidesign's whitepaper basically saying the same thing in more diplomatic language. Oviously, judging from the current adverts of a certain manufacturer, they're doing an end run around the science and going with celeb enorsers for their external clock product.

 

Lavry's also been a strong and clear voice against very high sample rates, arguing that it's foolish to extend the effective recording bandwidth to 80 kHz or above while potentially compromising the sampling accuracy of the audible band.

 

A voice in the wilderness.

 

 

 

PS... I just took a look at the tail end of the now years long thread on clocking implementation. I thought what the Apogee engineer said was hilarious. Unfortunately, it wasn't supposed to be. More magic fairy dust.

[offramp]

 

Originally posted by blue2blue Lavry's also been a strong and clear voice against very high sample rates, arguing that it's foolish to extend the effective recording bandwidth to 80 kHz or above while potentially compromising the sampling accuracy of the audible band . A voice in the wilderness.

 

 

 

With that said, then why would you be concerned about video opamps running 100khz, in your I/O?

[blue2blue]

Because they're optimized for video -- not audio -- perhaps?

 

 

These analog-digtial circuits in our pro level converters are not exactly saturday afternoon garage projects.

 

There is a LOT of research and design science that goes into them. Obviously not every design team is as well-grounded as every other team. There ARE undoubtedly companies out there who knock off OP's designs without necessarily understanding WHY they're set up the way they are. (And we probably all know who they are. Right Uli? )

 

But if you're talking about hardware from outfits like Digidesign, MOTU, and so on, I think you can rest assured that they have very professional design teams that have hundreds of years of education and experience between them.

 

When some "modder" flops open his IC catalog and goes shopping for "replacement" parts to "improve" the quality of these devices, I'm thinking it's usually pretty much the equivalent of some hobbyist making random changes in his gear in the fevered dream-hope of somehow stumbling on an improvement.

 

When I read that a certain modder replaces audio opamps with vid opamps to "extend the HF handling" I just had to say, "Whoa, Nelly!"

[Lee Knight]

 

Originally posted by blue2blue When I read that a certain modder replaces audio opamps with vid opamps to "extend the HF handling" I just had to say, "Whoa, Nelly!"

 

 

Who? BLA?

[blue2blue]

Hoo haah!

 

 

Er... wait... I guess that was a question.

 

 

It's my understanding that some of Black Lion's mods involve replacing audio-oriented opamps with opamps orignally purposed to video, yeah.

[UstadKhanAli]

Now, I remember what you wrote earlier about Lavry's comments about extending the frequency response and getting RFI and compromising the sampling accuracy of the audible band. But if this is the case, why do a lot of people seem to like the BLA mods? I would think that one would be able to hear RFI and compromised sampling accuracy...

[blue2blue]

Why do people like Ashley Simpson?

 

 

Why do people think their new toys are the best thing ever and then, 18 months later, they cant wait to get rid of them?

 

Why dont people do thorough research and personal testing before the invest their "true belief" in their latest enthusiasms?

 

 

 

I cant answer those questions.

 

 

 

 

[i ALSO cant answer why Firefox occasionally decides to freak out every time you hit an apostrophe, sending the text cursor flying out of the edit box. Sorry about the lack herein.]

[Phil O'Keefe]

I can't say if their mods are any good or not - I have never heard them. But from what I read on the website, it looks like they're doing modifications to the analog part of the units - improving the mic preamps and everything pre-converters, as well as doing some internal clock mods. The analog components is not an uncommon place to do mods, and if done by someone who knows what they're doing, CAN result in audible improvements to the sound.

[varakeef]

 

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli But if this is the case, why do a lot of people seem to like the BLA mods?

 

 

People tend to think (or convince themselves) that they're making good choices with their purchases. On the other hand people tend to bash products they don't use or know. And blue2blue has a good point made in a question:

 

Why do people think their new toys are the best thing ever and then, 18 months later, they cant wait to get rid of them?

 

 

When we're talking about preamps we're talking subtle differences anyway. Then it's even more easy to be convinced the change was good.

[Mike Andrade]

All of you guys are way more experienced than me. I have been reading these posts to figure out what kind of system I want to move up to (currently have a VS-1680). I have been very interested in the Black Lion Audio mods to an 002 rack and thought that was the way I would go in the future. They sound good to me. But, you guys all seem to think it's not a good choice. So, I've include the location of someone who did a comparison. Please check these tests out and tell me if I'm missing something. They sound like a pretty good way to spend $450.00 to me.

 

I searched on the Gearslutz forum: black lion 002 compared

 

They are on pages 4-6 of the thread.

 

Posted by commaKaze (the bananas icon)

 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=64111&page=4&highlight=c

o

____________________________________

[UstadKhanAli]

Well, do bear in mind that a lot of people on the TapeOp forums are raving about the mods. While a lot of the people on this forum don't seem to care for it, there are a lot of others who seem to really like it. So what does that mean? Somehow, ya gotta hear 'em!!

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli Well, do bear in mind that a lot of people on the TapeOp forums are raving about the mods. While a lot of the people on this forum don't seem to care for it, there are a lot of others who seem to really like it. So what does that mean? Somehow, ya gotta hear 'em!!

 

Hey Ken, is there someone here that's heard it and doesn't like it? I think Blue has a lot of very interesting info but, and may wrong here, hasn't actually heard the mod. I really want to hear from someone who's heard the mod and had a negative report. That may not happen as people have pointed out, we tend not to give a negative review to a choice we've made.

 

I've only heard positive from those that have heard it. It's killing me.

 

As a side note, I'll be picking an API A2D in January that includes a very good set of converters. I wonder how clocking to that would be effected by the mod... does it matter then?

[UstadKhanAli]

I don't know if anyone here on this forum has heard it or not, but the TapeOp people who have been raving about it have either heard it or actually had BLA do the mod.

 

I also believe that MOTU, Digidesign, and others design products that *can* be improved sonically through mods, as they are designing things for a broad range of appeal and for maximum profits at a particular price point, and not necessarily to have the greatest sound. I'm sure anyone who has heard the converters in a Digi001 can attest to this - it sounds like ass. I fail to see how you could NOT improve it...just about any components that were better than the converters in an answering machine would probably sound better. There are cheap microphones that are designed for a price point, and with some of these cheap ribbons, you can improve the sound by adding a transformer. Just about anything can be improved unless it is already so fastidiously designed (like a Gordon mic preamp or something like that).

[Lee Knight]

 

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli I don't know if anyone here on this forum has heard it or not, but the TapeOp people who have been raving about it have either heard it or actually had BLA do the mod. I also believe that MOTU, Digidesign, and others design products that *can* be improved sonically through mods, as they are designing things for a broad range of appeal and for maximum profits at a particular price point, and not necessarily to have the greatest sound. I'm sure anyone who has heard the converters in a Digi001 can attest to this - it sounds like ass. I fail to see how you could NOT improve it...just about any components that were better than the converters in an answering machine would probably sound better. There are cheap microphones that are designed for a price point, and with some of these cheap ribbons, you can improve the sound by adding a transformer. Just about anything can be improved unless it is already so fastidiously designed (like a Gordon mic preamp or something like that).

 

 

That is my suspicion as well.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Again, I have not heard the mods, but I suspect that if they are making improvements to the analog section of the units - preamps and everything pre-converters, and using better parts and working on faster transient response, lower noise, etc... then they may be on to something. I have heard some Audio Upgrades mods to analog desks, and they can make a noticeable improvement - I don't see why the analog sections of a Digi 002 couldn't be refined and improved. But again, unless and until I hear it, I can't make any subjective comments on the sonics, and neither can anyone else.

 

As far as the clocking, Lee, if you are using something like a API A2D, then the internal clock on the 002 / 002R is not in the picture - you'd need to set it to external clock via S/PDIF, with the API serving as the master clock. Since I also use external clocking, I'd be less interested - read that as "wouldn't need" - the clock modification to my Digi hardware.

 

Mike, thanks for the link. I'll try to cruise over to Gearslutzs and check that out later today or maybe tomorrow and get back to you.

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe As far as the clocking, Lee , if you are using something like a API A2D, then the internal clock on the 002 / 002R is not in the picture - you'd need to set it to external clock via S/PDIF, with the API serving as the master clock. Since I also use external clocking, I'd be less interested - read that as "wouldn't need" - the clock modification to my Digi hardware.

 

Thanks Phil.

[Mike Andrade]

FYI. BLA no longer mods the converters. They mod the pres, clock and other things they don't disclose. They said the mods to converters did not make much of a difference when compared to the other mods. There are 3-4 comparisons on the links I previously provided.

[blue2blue]

Sorry to sound cynical, guys.

 

But over the decades my carefully honed and nurtured cynicism has mostly served me very well.

 

 

For those of you swayed by the glowing reports on TapeOp's bb, let me assure you there are also many gushing testimonials for these mods from the posters on GearSlutz, just as there are people gushing about the "incredible improvement in accuracy" from attaching an external clock to their standalone converter or, for that matter, gushing about WHATEVER latest miraculous wonder product they just bought. And 18 months from now, many of them will, indeed, be saying "it sounds like ass."

 

I've been prowling online recording/audio boards for most of the 20 years I've been hooking my computer to the outside world. (Before the www, on Compuserve and as a pre-Windows beta tester for AOL.)

 

And some things NEVER change.

 

 

 

Caveat emptor.

 

 

 

PS... FWIW, I do think the mic pre's in the MOTU 828mkII are far from what I would consider widely usable pres; on my unit they are veiled to the point where I would almost call them muffled; the instrument input is useful, however. That said, having read through a number of BLA descriptions of their mods as well as the comments of gear manufacturers like Lavry whose gear BLA offers to mod, I have to say I remain... extremely skeptical.

[Mike Andrade]

Hey Blue2blue, I get that you're cynical and the biggest part of recording is the experience and knowledge of the engineer. But, have you listened to the comparison of the BLA modded 002 on Gearslutz as noted in my previous post? It seems to be a well documented and accurately done comparison. I can tend to be cynical also, but my ears don't lie to me.

[blue2blue]

No, I haven't. Which is, of course, why I haven't weighed in on the sound of the mods.

 

My comments relate strictly to what I read on the BLA website and to comments from users who've had the mod (most of whom are positive about it, as noted -- though not all), and the comments of a couple of people whose designs are being modded.

 

I used to often say that the most important test gear you own is glued to the sides of your head... but in the aftermath of the ascendancy of those who claim the ability to hear amazing differences between two similarly composed and constructed cables, I've backed off on that pithy piece of practical wisdom.

 

Not all of us have the resources or discipline for double-blind testing, of course, and that simply tells us what the subject prefers. Lab testing can tell us about certain aspects of the gear, too, but it's hard to conduct a full bank of test that will allow us to really objectify a unit's performance, and even then those measurements, some would argue, do not tell us the whole story. (Though I would say that deviation from ideal in those measurements can tell us A LOT.)

 

At any rate, I think I laid out my concerns above, if they give someone something to think about, that was the intent. If someone thinks it's tiresome hooey, that's okay, too.

 

 

PS... I first read about the BLA mods a long time ago. When I heard that this high end converter guy Dan Lavry was taking issue with them, my very first inclination was to go straight to "the little guy's corner," ie, BLA's side. But as I read the BLA site, read Lavry's comments and the comments of some others, I decided my innate cynicism and skepticism was initially directed the wrong direction.

 

I will say this -- it takes a lot to get me to "side with" someone who makes gear I'll never be able to convince myself I can afford. Some of Lavry's gear is just so incredibly expensive... having worked for a small electronics manufacturer, I can see how gear can get expensive when there's no economy of scale... but it is decidedly not my first inclination to side with (the price tag) "Goliath." (Of course, I also know from that manufacturing tenure that a high price tag on a short run unit does not necessarily make the manufacturer rich, by any means. Lavry IS David to some other company's Goliath in at least ONE spitting contest I've observed.)