Members yureal Posted August 5, 2009 Members Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hey guys, my brother and I are hopefully getting a new drum set soon; the kit will be used a lot in our home studio for clients and for ourselves. We pretty much know what kind of wood we want, what kind of bearing edges... The biggest thing we're still undecided on is the size of the kick drum. We record almost exclusively punk and metal. I think we want a 24" kick (diameter). While I know I need to just go play a few (and we're planning on that) - I wanted to know what experiences, good bad and ugly, you guys have had with large kick drums in the studio. I suppose large should mean any kick that is of a greater diameter than 22". Thanks in advance for the insightful, respectful, and often hilarious responses I have come to expect from this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Visually, a large kick drum might work for metal, but IMO, a 24" kick isn't always ideal musically. For any style that uses tons of double kick drum stuff, I'd recommend a 20 or 22" kick. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yureal Posted August 6, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2009 Thanks Phil. It seems so counter-intuitive; perhaps I should be considering a 20" or 22". The search continues...! I konw I'll probably regret opening this can o' worms but........ Has anyone heard the newest Propagandhi album "Supporting Caste?" I absolutely LOVE that kick sound! OR, has anyone heard one of the more recent Volbeat albums? They have a huge, nice kick sound as well. I know that the room, the mics, the room, and again the room have a lot to do with capturing that certain sound. I do wonder, though, what kind of drums made those aforementioned albums. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Have you looked for any YouTube clips of them? That would do two things - give you a possible visual clue as to what they're using, and give us an idea of the type of sound they're getting. My apologies, but I'm unfamiliar with the music from the artists you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members loner22 Posted August 6, 2009 Members Share Posted August 6, 2009 modern metal bands seem to use 20' a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members VSpaceBoy Posted August 6, 2009 Members Share Posted August 6, 2009 Visually, a large kick drum might work for metal, but IMO, a 24" kick isn't always ideal musically. For any style that uses tons of double kick drum stuff, I'd recommend a 20 or 22" kick. YMMV. +1 You need thin and punchy for metal, a large kick is going to be harder to get to cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yureal Posted August 6, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2009 I'm thinking I'll stick with a 22"; will still look into a 20" though.. How about the depth of the bass drum? I've read through the Drum Tuning Bible, but I'm still not sure which way to go. What have your experiences been with shallow v. deep kicks? Really appreciate all this guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted August 6, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 6, 2009 I just finished an album using a 20. Best sound I've gotten so far. While it wasn't a metal album, I was surprised with how much apparent low end there was. It just KUNCHKed you right it the gut. I was trying to convince the player to use the 22. He told me, "just try it". He was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 How about the depth of the bass drum? I've read through the Drum Tuning Bible, but I'm still not sure which way to go. . Increase the cubic volume of the kick drum (larger diameter and / or longer length) and you lower the resonant frequency of the drum shell. With metal, that's not really what I'd normally want. The style frequently utilizes lots of rapid fire double kick passages, and if there's too much "boom", you'll have a hard time getting good note definition on those fast passages - it will tend to get too boomy and muddy on you. Of course, you can always EQ it later, or replace the kick hits with samples, but why make more work for yourself? IMO, it's always best to optimize the sound at the source itself whenever possible, rather than to try to "fix" it later. For those reasons, I would caution against a really large (diameter or "tube length") kick drum for metal. Of course, how you decide to tune the drum comes into play too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted August 7, 2009 Members Share Posted August 7, 2009 Personally, I love giant kick drums. Even for metal. The modern metal sound mostly has that tight click-y kick sound, but I don't personally like that sound at all. If that's what you want, though, go for a smaller drum. I have a 20" kick on my Gretsch kit which is what I have in the studio. It sounds great, don't get me wrong. But I'd love to also have a 24" kick for the massive sound. I love it, but it might not be too practical as the only kick drum in a commercial studio where people want to sound like what's on the radio. On the other hand, if you really want to go for establishing your own signature sound, it might be just the thing. Led Zeppelin really bucked the current production trend of the 70s, which was to make the room and the drums as dead as possible and close mic the drums for a super tight sound. Zeppelin did exactly the opposite, using big drums with no damping, in reverberant rooms, miked with only a couple of distance mics. And of course, people are still trying to emulate those sounds today. So it kinda depends if you have your own creative vision you're trying to achieve which happens to include really huge sounding drums, or you want to do what everyone else is doing, which is more likely to get you more $$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 I agree that a larger kick drum can sound great on certain things, and I also agree that it's cool to do your own thing and not what everyone else is going for... but OTOH, if they're going to be doing the rapid fire kick rolls, it's harder - not impossible, but harder - to get it to work with the track for the "typical" metal thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted August 8, 2009 Members Share Posted August 8, 2009 ... but OTOH, if they're going to be doing the rapid fire kick rolls, it's harder - not impossible, but harder - to get it to work with the track for the "typical" metal thing. Yeah, I agree, and that's why I said I don't know that a 24" kick would be good as the only drum in a studio that has to accommodate different requirements, including the "typical" modern metal sound. It's just that I say that with great reluctance, because a 24" kick is such an awesome sound and IMO we don't hear it on recordings nearly enough. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alcohol Posted August 8, 2009 Members Share Posted August 8, 2009 In my humble studio I have a one kick drum kit. It's a 24" kick. Honestly, with the the tools of my humble studio, I can make that kick sound pretty much anyway I want without samples. I bet it's easier to take away than to add though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Personally Lee, I'd rather hear a great sounding 24" kick drum being played musically and tastefully, rather than a smaller one that was just being played as fast as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted August 8, 2009 Members Share Posted August 8, 2009 Personally Lee, I'd rather hear a great sounding 24" kick drum being played musically and tastefully, rather than a smaller one that was just being played as fast as possible. You and me both! I'll bet alcohol's is badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ThisIsExile Posted August 8, 2009 Members Share Posted August 8, 2009 Just throwing in a little bit of my own input as a member of a Death Metal band, a lot of these guys don't even use the real bass drum recording in the studio.They use triggered kick samples, and that's why it is real clicky sounding, it's an actual click. However, some bands use both and mix them, which to me is best because you get a big bass drum sound, but you get the cutting qualities of the triggered sample. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted August 8, 2009 Members Share Posted August 8, 2009 Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Very good point ThisIsExile - a lot of drums on metal albums are either triggered samples, or sample replaced via tools like Drummagog, Sound Replacer, TL Drum Rehab, etc. I own those tools, and they're fantastic for doing that, but I normally tend to reserve their use for fixing problems, rather than going into the session with the intention of replacing stuff. IOW, I prefer to try to capture what we're after naturally, from the source, and changing the source to suit what we want whenever possible. Rather than using whatever snare drum the drummer happens to bring in, and then "replace" it with a piccolo or deep dish later, I'd personally rather try swapping out snare drums on the actual drum set in the tracking process until we hit on what we think works best for the track. It's just my personal bias - I'm a believer in fixing things at the source whenever possible, as opposed to fixing them later. Of course, if you need to fix something later, or if replacing something later for musical, sonic or artistic reasons is required, I'm fine with that too... but I tend to think of "sources" before I think of alternative fixes. Of course, that's not a really common approach for a lot of Metal, but it does have the advantage - when it works - of giving you a unique sound; the drummer's sound, as opposed to a pre-packaged sample sound that might not be as unique and individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ThisIsExile Posted August 8, 2009 Members Share Posted August 8, 2009 I definitely agree with all that has been said. Messing with the drum sound post production can really kill the "organic" feel that I love in drumming that seems to be missing in a lot of metal bands. However, THIS band just slays in that department. The new Behemoth album has THE BEST production I have ever heard in a Death Metal context. It's quite amazing. [YOUTUBE]TKWp_4358VE[/YOUTUBE] However, this is EXTREMELY doctored drums that IMO, totally work for the context in which they are used. The drums are incredibly over the top and sound like a machine gun, and works out stylistically for the music. [YOUTUBE]SbqIn36DiSY[/YOUTUBE] In the end, it really all comes down to context and the taste of listener. I would never put the drum sounds in the second video in any other type of music, it would just sound wrong. Sorry about the rambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nerol1st Posted August 10, 2009 Members Share Posted August 10, 2009 Visually, a large kick drum might work for metal, but IMO, a 24" kick isn't always ideal musically. For any style that uses tons of double kick drum stuff, I'd recommend a 20 or 22" kick. YMMV. I agree with this. Large kicks suck in the studio IMO, just large and muddy. Plus a 24" kick can be cumbersome to play around if your dealing with a drummer that has never used one. I would go 20" personally, but 22" is also great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 10, 2009 Members Share Posted August 10, 2009 I agree with this. Large kicks suck in the studio IMO, just large and muddy. Not always. The Bonham recordings sound great, and he was using a very large kick drum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Not always. The Bonham recordings sound great, and he was using a very large kick drum. 24" Ludwig Vistalite IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nerol1st Posted August 10, 2009 Members Share Posted August 10, 2009 I touche' I should have said "IMO I think they sound muddy on modern recordings". One of the Atreyu albums had a 24" BD on it. Just doesn't do it for me personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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