Warm and full without mud?

[TheBoatCanDream]

What are your basic guidelines for creating a recording that has a warm and full sound without sounding muddy?

[UstadKhanAli]

Really fantastic arrangements.

 

Great musicians playing great sounding instruments.

 

Excellent mic positioning.

 

Great sounding room, or at least, judicious use of acoustic treatment.

 

High-quality signal chain.

 

High-pass filters.

 

Declaring war on the low mids, particularly with the drums.

[I was The Funk]

Hi pass filters, particularly on guitars.

 

But mostly a lot of forethought on what you are going to do and what you want each instrument to sound like. Communicate that to the musicians to inform their performances.

 

Tweak sounds for the mix before you record. Tune the instruments. Turn down the bass eq on the guitar tracks. Use a slightly brighter snare drum then you like in the room. Emphasize upper mids rather than lower mid.

 

Let the bass guitar and drums live in the lower mids and bass. Keep everythign else (except maybe organs) out of there.

 

The more of this done before recording the better off you are. Eq will help later, but the better it sounds going in, the better it will be going out.

[WRGKMC]

Besides having great tracks recorded first, which is a huge subject we'll skip over, Using great monitors and having the plugins needed are the tools.

Developing the knowlege and experience to use the tools is your real answer.

 

Its like asking a musician how they learned to play so well. Most will say, they either tool lessons, learned to read music, or put in uncountable hours developing their craft. they pool every idea out there and eventually develop intuitive methods of playing. Same goes for mixing when it really comes down to it.

[UstadKhanAli]

In my first post, I mentioned having a fantastic arrangement first. This was no mistake. It should be first. With an orchestra or big band, the arrangement can be so good that you could, if you wanted to, throw a stereo mic up in the front and it would sound balanced and full, with no mud.

 

Now, I've recorded plenty of projects where arrangements are not fantastic. But if they are, even within the scope of a jazz or rock or hardcore band, the music virtually mixes itself.

 

You can, of course, "create" better arrangements through judicious or creative use of EQ, panning, high-pass and low-pass filters and so forth, and often, this is needed with particularly dense mixes with lots of guitars and keyboards or whatever.

[Jimbroni]

In addition to things already mentioned I'll add.

 

Well tuned drums. Meaning tight sounding toms and kiks without the low ringing tails that mush up the lowend between the beats.

 

Also the bass player should concentrate on muting between his/her notes as well.

 

 

Now to be somewhat contradictory.

 

Even though alot of people will say to high pass the guitars to clean up the lowend, I will say that is true most of the time but not always.

 

If you want warmth sometimes the best place to get it is from the guitars. It depends on the part. Sometimes I find it better to as Ken sez declare war on the low mids with drums and bass. But I'll go even further and say sometimes you can take out even the low end of those instruments and let your guitar inhabit some of that space. Notch out some mids from the guitar and let the bass poke out there.

 

Obviously you can't take out all the bass from the toms, kik and bass but sometimes shelving them down and popping up the mids will actually make them poke out more.

[doug osborne]

Buildup happens in that 200-400 Hz range. It's inevitable. Almost all instruments have most of their energy in that area, and most small rooms have reflections that build that area. High frequencies add and subtract differently, mostly heard with discrete reflections or reverberation, and the bottom two octaves add and subtract in different ways.

 

If you are recording an ensemble (rock band, jazz band, orchestra, etc.) in a room with one or a thousand mics, you will choose the room, position the players, choose the mics, position the mics, etc., so this buildup is embraced but not exaggerated. Soloing mics will probaly show thin tracks that add together for the right amount of midrange buildup. You might insti

 

Recording instruments one at a time in the same room, or in a heavily treated room, might get you tracks that sound great soloed but put together, build up happens. We have to pull out the big guns, sculpting out what isn't in the sculpture.

 

This is more common in these days of unlimited tracks, doubling and tripling everything, etc. To my ears, it squares-off the subtle edges of the sound, inviting hot recording, mixing, and mastering levels, and devalues each individual sound. It's not good or bad, it just is.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Well tuned drums. Meaning tight sounding toms and kiks without the low ringing tails that mush up the lowend between the beats. Also the bass player should concentrate on muting between his/her notes as well.

 

 

Those are two really big ones for lessening mud. So much is about great playing and great sounding instruments.

 

 

 

Now to be somewhat contradictory. Even though alot of people will say to high pass the guitars to clean up the lowend, I will say that is true most of the time but not always.

 

 

Sometimes, it's easier to go in there and dip with EQ. Just depends.

 

 

If you want warmth sometimes the best place to get it is from the guitars. It depends on the part. Sometimes I find it better to as Ken sez declare war on the low mids with drums and bass. But I'll go even further and say sometimes you can take out even the low end of those instruments and let your guitar inhabit some of that space. Notch out some mids from the guitar and let the bass poke out there.

 

 

Yes, that's a common thing that is done, particularly with heavy rock. And it's essentially a form of arrangement, even imposed by the person mixing. You let the guitars inhabit that area, carving it out so you get less frequency overlap instead of having everything be really "bassy". So much of the bass sound/character comes from the mid frequencies anyway.

 

Boost one thing, dip another. Dip one thing, boost another. Sorta like a puzzle.

[Lee Knight]

I'll add...

 

HPF. It doesn't have to mean "tone control". A lot of time people, myself included here, equate using a HPF as a means of carving out some of the lows of an instrument. Well... step away from the eq, son.

 

Solo a shaker track. Something recorded in your room. Or maybe it's a loop recorded elsewhere. Solo it. Slap a spectrum analyzer on your master and look.

 

Frequently there's garbage down there. I mean, how much useful shaker info is down at 120Hz. Lower. Whoa. 50Hz? Yeah. Not much useful shaker info, but Captain! We have activity down below deck!!!

 

By using a HPF simply as a means of ridding your channels of low freq info that shouldn't be there in the first place, you're going to make giant strides in cleaning up mud.

 

I roll the HPF up until it eats into the signal. Then roll it back. I personally don't want to eat into my guitars or shakers... but the rest of it?

 

See ya.

[UstadKhanAli]

Yes, this is exactly how I think of an HPF as well.

[WRGKMC]

Low frequency noise can be cummulative and then you wind up boosting instruments above it. You also have the situation where instrument frequencies are masking eachother and you wind up boosting volumes so the instruments can be clearly heard.

 

heres a simple chart of how instryments should/can peak at their main resonant frequencies. I keep this posted above my mixing desk as a reminder. when I get a mix thats busting my balls it can help me refocus on my objective. I am guilty of getting lopsided mixes occasionally. it usually occurs because I have one track that sounds better than all the rest, either sound wise or performance and I'm biased in making it sound great and have streached its envelope with no chance of getting the other tracks to be as detailed or as easily heard. I catch myself and put the tracks back into perspective, even if its at the sacrifice of a great tracks sound quality to get it to blend with all the others.

 

Don't rule out the use of multiband limiting or a brickwall limiter on the mains.

I did some experimentation using these in the mains when mixing recently. You can get some nice balance on the channels mixing because the tracks can only peak so high. Then you can switch between processed and bypassed for a quick A/B sound check, and the tracks that are too loud with big peaks will be obvious. Once you get the problem tracks taken care of, simply remove the master effects (Or leave them there if it sounds better) and you're all set.

[TheBoatCanDream]

Thanks everyone, what you've posted has been very informative. I appreciate it.

[Cirrus]

Really great posts here, I've learned some stuff too! Jsut wanted to add a couple of things;

 

Been working on mixes recently for an EP, took them home and found they were sounding a bit sterile. I didn't want to boost the lows any more, but I found by rolling off the highs a couple of db, the mixes sounded much warmer without the boosted low end thing going on. It's all about balance, and I'm learning more and more that sometimes to get the effect you want you've got to work on other areas of the mix instead.

 

As an aside, WRGKMC, that chart is really great, but where does your snare sit in there? (I, perhaps insanely, think of the snare as the "nose" of the mix. A wierd nose can ruin an otherwise lovely face! )

[Lee Knight]

As an aside, WRGKMC, that chart is really great, but where does your snare sit in there? (I, perhaps insanely, think of the snare as the "nose" of the mix. A wierd nose can ruin an otherwise lovely face! )

 

That is a great analogy. But remember, a unique nose can turn just another pretty face into a classic beauty.

[WRGKMC]

That chart is only an example, its not a precise or detailed chart. Since snares come in all sizes and types, it can vary alot in the mix. It can also have a wide range to it. The bottem side snares tend to be in the cymbal areas, the top head tends to be between guitars and vocals.

 

I do have another chart that is simular to this one that covers the whole frequency range of instruments i found on the net. Its not one of those instrumental charts either that listes the entire orchestra. Those can be useful too, but this one was very cool. I went trolling for it a few times but didnt have any luck. i'll give it another go and see if I can find it.

[thefyn]

A good album to listen to for that vibe is

 

[YOUTUBE]6sdMotA69QQ[/YOUTUBE]

 

It is really easy. All you need are some of the worlds BEST musicians, worlds best studio, worlds best producer etc etc.

 

Yes the mics cost more than every penny you have spent since you were born but it is worth it.

 

[YOUTUBE]vRgH0Tm_BNg[/YOUTUBE]

[Jimbroni]

 

That chart is only an example, its not a precise or detailed chart. Since snares come in all sizes and types, it can vary alot in the mix. It can also have a wide range to it. The bottem side snares tend to be in the cymbal areas, the top head tends to be between guitars and vocals.

 

 

Snares can make or break a mix alot of the time. I'm starting to realize more and more that snare selection is critical.

 

I think the most important thing about your chart is not the numbers (freqs) listed but the notion of giving everything a place. Depending on how it all falls out will dictate how well the snare fits in. Unfortunately, I generally don't get a choice as to what snare will be used. But when recording my own band in the future I will be more demanding about, choosing the piccolo vs the 6" brass vs 6" wood, etc. Yes it would be nice to have about 3 more snares to choose from.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

I found by rolling off the highs a couple of db, the mixes sounded much warmer without the boosted low end thing going on.

 

 

 

And of course, this works with individual or sub-grouped tracks as well, not just with the whole mix. Good point.

 

I still think that the best and easiest way to start with this is to have a great arrangement. It's of course possible to do a great mix without a great arrangement, but it's sooooo much easier with a great arrangement because, in essence, it's already "mixed".

[WRGKMC]

Heres an excelent article on multiband.

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug02/articles/multiband.asp

[UstadKhanAli]

Multiband compression.

[Cirrus]

 

Snares can make or break a mix alot of the time. I'm starting to realize more and more that snare selection is critical. I think the most important thing about your chart is not the numbers (freqs) listed but the notion of giving everything a place. Depending on how it all falls out will dictate how well the snare fits in. Unfortunately, I generally don't get a choice as to what snare will be used. But when recording my own band in the future I will be more demanding about, choosing the piccolo vs the 6" brass vs 6" wood, etc. Yes it would be nice to have about 3 more snares to choose from.

 

 

That's one of the things I really envy about the big name bands who have the time and luxury to try different things - if a snare drum wasn't the right one for the song hey, no worries, we're in the studio for a month so let's re record it 'til we get it right!

 

When I was drummer in my band i had a Mapex Black Panther 14x6.5 hammered brass snare. That thing was an absolute monster. so articulate, perfect blend of excitement and depth, crisp and sat so well in the mix. I had to sell all my drum gear to get a guitar rig for my current project, and that's the only bit i really miss. I hope whoever has that snare now appreciates it, because it was special.

 

A bit off topic there, I'll try and bring it back... I guess something you could take from my lamentations about that snare is that as other people have said, the arrangement and tone choices are key to any effect you want to come through in the mix. When you find that special thing, be it a magical amp, guitar that plays like butter, snare that sits perfectly in a rock mix with hardly any work needed, hold on to those things because come tracking you're in much better stead if you know the instruments you'll be recording have the mojo you need. Warmth without mud isn't an eq setting, if you catch my drift.

[UstadKhanAli]

Warmth without mud isn't an eq setting, if you catch my drift.

 

And that's really a damn shame!!!