Console-less = Clueless

[Ernest Buckley]

Last year at this time I sold my beloved Mackie d8b. With the proceeds I purchased a G5 and some software. Coincidentally, during this time I have recorded almost nothing. I have written plenty but I have recorded only one song.

 

I desperately miss having faders and a monitoring system in front of me.

 

I have considered purchasing the Mackie Big Knob and the Mackie Control Universal but have opted away from this because it does not address my input needs.

 

I have also considered purchasing the new Toft console but have refrained from doing so because I do not want to be a beta tester.

 

I have considered the Soundcraft Ghost but have heard from forums that it is not a great sounding console but then again for the price what can one expect?

 

Then there is the part of me that is considering going back to a digital console like the Yamaha O2R96 but I have refrained from this path as well because I want to avoid the complexity of the numerous windows on Yamaha boards.

 

I also heard good things about the Midas boards but they look like they are more dedicated to live sound. Are the specs on the Midas boards that good for studio recording?

 

Just for the record I sold my board because I honestly thought I could record and mix comfortably without one but time has proven my decision wrong. I do not regret purchasing a G5 but I do need the comforts a console gives.

 

Am I overlooking a console? Anyone have anything positive to say about the Soundcraft Ghost? Anyone in the same (or was in) predicament as me? What are you considering?

 

All feedback appreciated.

EB

[Ed A.]

 

Originally posted by Ernest Buckley Last year at this time I sold my beloved Mackie d8b. With the proceeds I purchased a G5 and some software. Coincidentally, during this time I have recorded almost nothing. I have written plenty but I have recorded only one song. I desperately miss having faders and a monitoring system in front of me.

 

 

I can't see how not using a mixer is keeping you from recording the songs you've written. If you said you're have difficulty in mixing songs because you're no longer using a hardware mixer, I could understand that. But if you can't get your ideas down initially in at least a basic form, then maybe it's time to give it a rest. Buying more gear probably won't help. Take some time off and come back to it when you feel inspired again.

[Ernest Buckley]

I guess what I should add is that I am not inspired to record my ideas without the ease of a mixer. Sure I still could lay down ideas, I just don`t enjoy the process anymore without a board.

 

Let me just clarify, writing is not the problem.

[Anderton]

>

 

I understand completely. This is why I still love my DA7

[kevinnem]

Originally posted by Anderton > I understand completely. This is why I still love my DA7

 

I have only used the D8B once, but I thought it was one kick ass platform.

 

when you say toft aduio, .. are you talking about an anlog console, .. or do they have a digital one I don't know about?

[blue2blue]

I don't use much of my mixer very often -- a few input strips (I've decided for the most part I like my board's mic pres better than the handful of Meek/ART/Bellari level pres I accumulated over the years), the insert(s), to route through a levelling amp style compressor (an ART, in fact), a few strips for monitoring or folding in other sources. I have some sends dedicated to outboard FX boxes I essentially never use.

 

All my mixing is done ITB, using plug in EQ and compression (I like the Sonic Timeworks CompressorX and EQ that came with Sonar 2... good thing they did, since ST wants an arm and a few toes for them retail-direct.)

 

I certainly don't need the 24 channels I have, but in for a penny...

 

 

[i've toyed with OTB submixing, since my MOTU gives me 12 analog outs, and it was amusing to mix on a board again -- but with the limited number of tracks my projects have (seldom if ever over 20-30 simultaneous tracks), any sonic loss from putative summing buss data jamming is not really noticeable.

 

 

I could certainly get away with something like the little Mackie 12 channel mixers like the 1202 (or whatever the current model is) for the most part.

 

But I definitely need straight, real-time analog monitoring. Though my MOTU has very fast in-box DSP cue mixing, I find that even that tiny delay bothers me when cutting electric guitar direct. (Which I practically never do, I'll admit.)

[Brittanylips]

 

Originally posted by blue2blue I don't use much of my mixer very often --

 

THAT's the ticket:

 

To figure out what parts of your traditional mixer you continue to use (or miss), and get the gear that gives you those functions, and Buh-Bye to the rest.

 

Why not get a Mackie Control Universal for faders, and something like the Big Knob (but not the Big knob) for monitoring?

 

There's more than than enough interfaciaeiaeiae out there, from cheap to expensive, to handle your inputs and outputs, and you can marry them to as many controllers (Mackie?? KORE??!! Icon????) as you like.

 

Personal Disclosure: I recently tossed my console and am building a console-less studio around an Apple Quad, some juicy outboard, and some nice long cables.

 

-plb

[Ernest Buckley]

 

when you say toft aduio, .. are you talking about an anlog console, .. or do they have a digital one I don't know about?

 

 

I`m referring to the new analog Toft. Right now there is a pilot program to about 100 users. I originally signed up and then thought better. i`m not a good beta tester candidate so I would have been useless to Toft.

 

And for $3000, I don`t want to deal with bugs.

[seclusion]

Yep I went from a Mackie 24 8 bus to 2 Tascam TMD4000 consoles to a FW 1884 console. My song writing went from busy to almost non-exsistence when I went to the digi consoles. I always had to think about what I was trying to do.

With the 1884 I find it covers all the bases, though I do want to get a high end 8 channel Mic Pre to adat converter so I can have 16 channel input!. The only issue is I really know Logic Audio, and my windows version doesn't do controllers. So I have to go Mac. I may end up getting a used G4 once Apple release's the Intel PowerMac. Hopefully by then a G4 dually will go for less then $1000. I don't like thinking while I Write and Record. It should just happen. With the training I've done on Logic all that just happens, with Sonar I find I'm always thinking! Grrr. I hear you totally. I feel like hiring someone to think while I'm creative... Is that wrong??

Later

[blue2blue]

 

Originally posted by Brittanylips THAT's the ticket: To figure out what parts of your traditional mixer you continue to use (or miss), and get the gear that gives you those functions, and Buh-Bye to the rest. Why not get a Mackie Control Universal for faders, and something like the Big Knob (but not the Big knob) for monitoring? There's more than than enough interfaciaeiaeiae out there, from cheap to expensive, to handle your inputs and outputs, and you can marry them to as many controllers (Mackie?? KORE??!! Icon????) as you like. Personal Disclosure: I recently tossed my console and am building a console-less studio around an Apple Quad, some juicy outboard, and some nice long cables. -plb

 

 

I have a bank of fader controls on my MIDI controller that I never use.

 

I never -- and I mean pretty much never use the console view in Sonar.

 

I know a lot of folks find the 'virtual console' thing reassuring somehow but I've never much seen the point... in Sonar's track view I can see the wave forms, the MIDI tracks, PB meters, automation envelopes... why give up most of that just so I can have putatively groovy animated faders?

 

Maybe it's just because when "3D realism" started popping up in the form of virtual mixers, etc, in DAWs I thought: man, why waste my CPU trying to "recapture" the old methodologies I'm trying to push beyond.

 

 

Anyhow, I do find it reassuring having a real mixing board, since when I tried working without it, it always seemed like I was hauling out my little Mackie for this or that... so I finally gave in and brought the 24-4 out.

 

The Big Knob looks like almost enough -- but as I read the product lit, it doesn't appear there's a way to blend the DAW mix with whatever you're tracking -- except through he DAW, which I find unacceptable for latency issues.

[UstadKhanAli]

I thought the Soundcraft Ghost was supposed to be really good sounding for the money. I suppose it's all relative.

 

I saw an Allen & Heath board a few NAMMs ago that looked promising. I think the model was a G3000 or something like that, and it had a built-in tube that you could run stuff through for different sounds, distortion, whatever.

 

I thought it was weird mixing completely ITB at first but have gotten used to it.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Anderton > I understand completely. This is why I still love my DA7

 

That's a good board.

 

I still keep and use a Tascam DM-24 for the same reason.

 

Terry D.

[Brittanylips]

 

Originally posted by blue2blue I have a bank of fader controls on my MIDI controller that I never use. I never -- and I mean pretty much never use the console view in Sonar. I know a lot of folks find the 'virtual console' thing reassuring somehow but I've never much seen the point... in Sonar's track view I can see the wave forms, the MIDI tracks, PB meters, automation envelopes... why give up most of that just so I can have putatively groovy animated faders? Maybe it's just because when "3D realism" started popping up in the form of virtual mixers, etc, in DAWs I thought: man, why waste my CPU trying to "recapture" the old methodologies I'm trying to push beyond.

 

IMHO... You hit the NAIL on the HEAD!

 

I ran into a Microsoft guy at a party last week who was chatting about problems at the mothership. One is the potroast syndrome. The potroast syndrome is based on an old joke:

 

A woman is making potroast using the family recipe she learned from her mother. she takes the piece of meat, cuts off its ends, puts it in the pan and cooks it.

Her husband, who has watched her make it that whay as long as he can remember finally asks "why do you cut off the ends?"

She says "because that's how my mother did it."

He replies "Well, why did your mother do it?"

So the woman asked her mother "Mom. Why do you cut off the ends of the potroast before you cook it?"

The mother replies "that's how your grandmother - my mother - always did it."

So the woman asked her grandmother "Grandma: Why do you cut off the ends of the potroast?"

And the Grandma answered "so it'd fit in my damn pan."

 

In other words, a necessary tweak or idiosyncrasy due to a real limitation in the past (physical or otherwise) gets grandfathered down even though the limitation no longer exists.

 

Thus, deep in multi-generational software, legacy code tweaked to accommodate limitations in the past lingers in current generations where it is not only no longer beneficial, but hampers performance.

 

In audio, analog production metaphors grandfathered into digital production retain anachronistic limitations and don

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by seclusion Yep I went from a Mackie 24 8 bus to 2 Tascam TMD4000 consoles to a FW 1884 console. My song writing went from busy to almost non-exsistence when I went to the digi consoles. I always had to think about what I was trying to do. With the 1884 I find it covers all the bases, though I do want to get a high end 8 channel Mic Pre to adat converter so I can have 16 channel input!. The only issue is I really know Logic Audio, and my windows version doesn't do controllers. So I have to go Mac. I may end up getting a used G4 once Apple release's the Intel PowerMac. Hopefully by then a G4 dually will go for less then $1000. I don't like thinking while I Write and Record. It should just happen. With the training I've done on Logic all that just happens, with Sonar I find I'm always thinking! Grrr. I hear you totally. I feel like hiring someone to think while I'm creative... Is that wrong?? Later

Well, I have to admit, my first generation studio (a Tascam Studio 8) was nice for the same reasons. It was just all there, simple, easy. Play, Record, Faders: what's not to love? And it sounded pretty good too.

 

So I hear you, seclusion dude.

 

As for the Apple thing, by the time Apple releases an Intel Desktop, there will be an Apple intel system that will smoke any G4 dually, work a million times better with Logic, and be available for less than a grand. (hell, a macbook is around a grand today).

 

But back to your main point, I think we're still in the transition period where the need to continue to include familiar metaphors derived from analog production in their digital counterparts is kludgy, and why we continue to fiend for our boards.

 

-plb

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by Brittanylips As far as the Big Knob itself, it seems like a good idea, but IMHO, it looks like a flawed product. It brings a spaghetti dinner of cables onto your desk and from what I've heard, doesn't sound all that great. A similar but better solution (without spending big bucks) looks like the Presonus Central Station which has cleaner circuitry and separates the cable i/o's into a neat rackspace box, away from the remote control that sits on your desk. It strikes me as a much more elegant solution without breaking the bank. -plb

 

 

First of all, I loved the pot roast story and quite agree with the point you two are making.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I have a Big Knob (the Mackie device, that is...), and it works great, but the weak spot is exactly what you say - I got a bunch of wires coming up on the desk. Not good.

 

The Presonus Central Station is a good idea, although it costs about twice as much as the Big Knob (which is why I have the Big Knob).

[joel Oporto]

maybe a mackie onyx will be the right thing for you, you just set up all the inputs to be ready anytime you need to track anything

[EnemyofSilence]

Earnest,

You don't mention what software you're using. Logic?

 

I agree with the comments about 'what is it you're missing?'. Not to talk you out of a console, but you may be missing how flexible and inspiring a well put together software + hardware component system can be.

 

Inputs? Monitoring? Mixing? just grabbing faders? Blinking lights?

 

What conveniences are you missing?

[Trick Fall]

I'm finally moving out of a small apartment and into a decent sized house where I'll have about 600 square feet in the basement to make a studio and one of the things I'm most looking forward to is tracking down my Allen & Heath mixdown 8 or buying a new board. Maybe I'll lose some sonics, but I'm doing this for fun and moving some faders and turning knobs for eq is more fun for me. It will also be nice to have a better monitoring sitch and it should be easier to use the couple of outboard boxes I have. At least that's what I'm hoping.

[MorePaul]

I'm sort of a magtape dino -- I don't record much at all (music for me is still primarily a live experience...nothing wrong with recording, wish I knew more abt it, just how things have played out) hardly ever these days and it' all to mag tape

 

I'm still using a Tacam 38 into a studiomaster "mixdown" console

 

 

 

Why don't I use computer recording?

 

Honestly, 3 reasons which are more curmudgeonly than anything

 

1) I cut my teeth pre computer recording, so, as some guys are into the "vintage" feel of instruments, etc b/c that's what they started on...so I am on the recording system

2) I'm on these damn boxes for a living (I'm here a lot, but guess what, that's usually b/c I've got some work thing going)...and I like to get away from 'em

 

3) I'm lazy lazy lazy

 

 

 

My needs, however, are pretty basic, more "recording" as in 'making a record of' than "tracking" in terms of contructing a 'production'...if that makes sense

 

I'm not one for overdub/puching in, I don't sequence anything (the only synth I use these days is my old pro one)

I guess I'm more interested in 'studio live' or 'pseudo-live' recording of small (chamber)ensemble, etc these days

 

 

 

so question :

 

question

 

I do hve a Fostex 108 that I'd like to start to use and would like to find a similar level of technology for (stereo) mixdown

 

[basically replacing the magtape components with digital recording component leaving the rest of the system basically the same]

 

any thoughts?

[Ernest Buckley]

I use DP and REASON. I don`t have much outboard except my 2 Avalons and 3 sound mods.

I miss having immediate access to several channels. Tracking and monitoring is a real pain. I`m still not getting it right.

 

Other than that, I may be able to live ITB.

[Extreme Mixing]

I think you just have to commit to doing a few songs in the box. You'll get to know where everything is that way. Mixing has to be intuitive to work. Hard to do that when you're always searching through the manual. Once you really learn the system, it will become easy for you to make it laugh and sing. Make the commitment to do 3 songs in two weeks.

 

Interestingly enough, I'm having a similar problem in reverse. One of my clients just got a new ICON console. $100,000 later and I'm hating life! Most of the functions are easier for me to do with the mouse and keyboard. I find myself cursing, and hunting, and pecking for things that I know exactly how to do with the K and M. The software controller consoles are hard to deal with because nothing is really anything, because everything can be anything and can be located ANYWHERE. Track names become pretty cryptic when limited to 5 characters. The master section has it's fader on the left, when I would prefer it on the right.

 

Like I said, I could do it all with the K and M, but I know that once I get over this learning bump, I'm going to like the console. For now I'm not so sure. But I have made a commitment to learn the system. You should do the same.

 

By the way, you have to have a volume control/ input/ speaker selector to make in the box mixing work. The Central station is a great choice for the money. I have the Coleman Audio M3, but I'd love to have the remote, talkback, and the digital inputs from the CS.

 

Good luck,

 

Steve

[Ernest Buckley]

Steve,

 

Thanks. So I should invest in a Mackie Big Knob? What are the other options?

 

Thanks,

Ernest

[jasps]

In response to your question about midas being a primarily live sound console--yes they are. However, IIRC, Even the venice has more headroom and a lower noise than the Ghost. If the venice has enough infrastructure (busses, etc.) to suit your needs...I wouldn't hesitate to try it out. The ghost can interface nicely with dedicated record decks, if desired (extra options purchased).

 

FWIW, tons of people are still using Mackie 32:8's to make music/perform live and can get a decent sound. A Midas, IMO, probably won't dissapoint you. Good luck with your decision!

[Ernest Buckley]

I don`t know...

 

I`m tossing around between going with a board and staying ITB. My primary frustration with ITB is monitoring while tracking. Its also nice to grab several faders at once...

 

My gut changes daily. We`ll see...

 

The ideal situation would be to have a room large enough to house a console and yet work ITB when the mood hit me.

 

I`m so confused...

[Anderton]

Well, I think of it this way...

 

I have a mixer, but I don't use it all the time. It doesn't cost anything extra to do ITB, so if you get a mixer, you can pretty much choose whatever work method you want for a particular project.