Members rasputin1963 Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 To a degree, Texas is going through the same thing--- lots of new development with nobody thinking too much about the water table and the despoilation of the environment. It's kinda sickening. The Texas nouveau-riche would suck dry the water table for themselves to keep their golf courses green. It's been said that we are living still in the shadow of The Industrial Revolution, still doing old, dumb things that once worked but not so much anymore. The Next Big Thing has to be the Power/Resources Revolution... the way we harness and deploy energy and natural resources has to change in a BIG way. And fast. But humans are stubborn. they wait 'til things get REALLY bad before they act... I wonder if anyone born before 1955 or so really gives a big whiz.... they have old ideas still in their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jackpine Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 He's tired of us not listening. We're the ones who have to help ourselves. I wasn't trying to be naive here, Craig, I was just feeling a bit week at the moment. You're absolutely right .... it's up to us. Right now, between my brother and I, we are experimenting with self composting toilets, low flow water systems, alternative wastewater systems and of course alternative energy systems, mainly solar but were now partially through a wind turbine project. The State of Wisconsin has even given us a variance in greywater treatment. Had the main Hydrologist from Madison come up, look at what we we're doing and basically give us a blank permit. As individuals, if we don't take personal responsibility for our own environmental footprint, then I'll stick with God help us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 the water cant disappear can it? its just somewhere else right? i know people are what 80% water? but we all eventually die. i know water is becoming more polluted by us through fertilizers and waste, but will the ground eventuall filter it out... i just want to know where its going, if its disappearing... Oh boy, now you're getting right in my area of expertise here. No it's not disappearing, it's just returning to the ocean. Basically we're doing a lot of dumb things to ensure that more of it returns to the ocean than needs to before we can use it. Because too, that's really all we're doing - using the water on its way to somewhere else. And hopefully not screwing it up so badly that it's not usable by us or any other living thing by the time it gets where it's going. You probably learned about the water cycle in elementary school. We have fresh water because the sun heats up the oceans and a lot of water rises into the air as water vapor (clouds and fog), which then gets carried over the land by wind. As it rises, it cools, eventually to the point where it turns back to liquid and falls to the earth as rain. The rain then seeps into the ground and flows down creeks to larger rivers and streams and eventually returns to the sea. Our mission, should we decide to accept it, is 1) to make sure we provide an environment for the water to collect instead of simply evaporating and blowing over wherever it is we live, and 2) once it gets here, to make sure we can intercept it for our use before it runs away. These are the big things they don't teach you in school about the water cycle. Once clouds blow inland and get away from the coasts, the only way any appreciable amount of local precipitation can happen is if there is a "host" environment for it to be stored - that is to say, soil, reservoirs (depressions and holes in the soil whether large or small), and trees/woody plants. Much of the water that evaporates and falls as rain inland comes from the ground, not the ocean. So if you have a flat piece of impermeable ground (e.g. pavement, or soil that has collapsed from over-farming), any rain that falls onto it is simply going to run off it and go somewhere else. It can't be stored in the ground or re-evaporate when needed. If there is a big enough expanse of such surface, local precipitation around the area will actually decrease, even if the general area still records a decent amount of rainfall. Even if water is able to seep through the soil, it has to be able to collect and not just evaporate right away. That's where plants and animals come in. Trees collect and store up huge amounts of water - they literally rake water vapor out of the air as it goes by and pump it into the ground. Then they transpire it back into the air as the air gets drier. Of course they use a lot of that water for themselves, but they also store much more than they need, which means all the rest of the creatures around them get to use it, too. They also shade the ground underneath them so that the ground water doesn't evaporate, and deposit leaves and needles on the ground to further suppress evaporation. Root holes from plants, and animal and insect burrows, also create lots of small depressions in the soil that store water. When we disturb that process by tilling, grading, covering stuff over with pavement, the soil can't store water anymore... and most people severely underestimate the amount of water that is stored this way. THEN... whatever rainfall we do get once we've cut all the trees and paved everything over runs right off our rooftops and into storm drains. Or runs off the pavement and goes away without our being able to use it. It's silly, and it's conceptually not hard to fix because all of the things nature does to store water can be encouraged and imitated by humans. The most obvious things are to use permeable surfaces instead of pavement, stop cutting down trees and take aggressive measures to plant new ones and protect the ones we have, and start capturing more water off our roofs in storage tanks. Swales (basically ditches on contour) can be dug in large flat areas and on hillsides to capture runoff. Instead of having massive, tilled, unshaded fields for growing food, adopt agricultural methods that don't require tilling (yes this exists) and grow more food locally in back yards and neighborhoods, on small plots surrounded by other more diverse kinds of plants. People can contract out "small farmers" to maintain their gardens just like they do now with lawns (and suburban lawns waste more water and use more chemicals, per acre, than commercial agriculture). We can have gardens that are beautiful, healthy and produce food for us as well as flowers and trees and other pretty stuff. There won't have to be massive infrastructure built to store water and carry it where it needs to go because it will be collected and distributed and stored locally. None of this is pie in the sky, it works today and is being done today in places where people are more open minded out of necessity. But as usual, the biggest hurdles to progress are cultural/mental hurdles... well, that and the loss of profit for the huge agribiz companies. They'll do anything, and I do mean anything, to ensure we DON'T ever wise up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 you know i get TAXED for rain now?!? seriously. they have a rain tax here... and we are in an extreme drought, i think my tax should be refunded this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 the water cant disappear can it? its just somewhere else right? i know people are what 80% water? but we all eventually die. i know water is becoming more polluted by us through fertilizers and waste, but will the ground eventuall filter it out... i just want to know where its going, if its disappearing... I'm doing my part for overpopulation. I have no kids. It's gonna stay that way. BTW, people are composed of over 90% water and a couple of bucks of cheap chemicals. And Lee's answer is good, provided that someone doesn't take a few gallons of water up to the moon and then spill it or whiz out the space station... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 i also was watching about the diversion of rain, like take atlanta in a drought, makes it more difficult to now rain there than if they werent... and the cycle can take a long time to change. if they had enough water, instead of discouraging people to water their yards, it would be more benficial if they did to allow for more cloud formation and more rain. it was an eye opening concept but one that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 Watering yards. We'd save a lot of water in Southern California if houses didn't have LAWNS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 yeah, you guys have the whole sprinkler thing happening there built in. at least the neighborhoods i have been in. lots of stucco houses with terra cotta roofs and green lawns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 We should all have plants that grow here naturally, not Kentucky bluegrass. Such a waste of water!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 i also was watching about the diversion of rain, like take atlanta in a drought, makes it more difficult to now rain there than if they werent... and the cycle can take a long time to change. if they had enough water, instead of discouraging people to water their yards, it would be more benficial if they did to allow for more cloud formation and more rain. it was an eye opening concept but one that makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense so long as the water has somewhere to go and it isn't just going to evaporate and blow away. People who have a lot of tree cover in or around their yards would be helping things by watering... if you have a big flat expanse of lawn, or the water's just going to run down a hill to a creek and get carried away, or the area is surrounded by huge expanses of pavement... then it will hurt not help. That's the problem, it's kind of selective so they just say "don't water". But yeah it's true, once you have drought conditions and the ground is dry, that makes it very tough for it to rain again. Urban areas really suffer from that problem. Deep rooted trees can help pump moisture out of the ground and collect what water vapor does go by, but if there aren't enough of them or enough permeable surface it's a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 I guess y'all have heard the recent gross stories: freshwater fish in the USA now contain high levels of Viagra, Prozac and birth control pills in their system... because of runoff from human sewage into their habitats. Ugh! Been fishin' anytime lately, boys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 2180 Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 I noticed from an article the other day that 50% of the water goes to electricity production in Atlanta, 25% to industry, and 25% to the general population. So we are looking at a situation where not only do you not have water to flush a toilet, you don't have electricity either, not to mention no-one can go to work. I read about the sewer systems on another forum, they are designed to have a constant flow of water pushing, "you know what down stream" and if the flow of water stops that stuff hardens and blocks the passage of anything meant to be sent somewhere else. I'm going through Atlanta next month to visit relatives east of there, I may change my plans if anarchy breaks out! Seriously, if I lived there, I'd be thinking about moving somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 i just wonder, since this is a closed system [earth] the water cant disappear can it? its just somewhere else right? i know people are what 80% water? but we all eventually die. i know water is becoming more polluted by us through fertilizers and waste, but will the ground eventuall filter it out... I'm doing my part. I'm trying to pee a little more than I take in every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 I'm going through Atlanta next month to visit relatives east of there, I may change my plans if anarchy breaks out! Seriously, if I lived there, I'd be thinking about moving somewhere else. Well it wouldn't hurt my feelings if a bunch of people moved out of their McMansions and left them vacant. Might discourage developers from building more, and discourage people from buying them if they don't think they'll be able to sell them at a profit. I don't think there's any reason to think we're going to have anarchy here though. It's a serious problem but a lot of people are also over-reacting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 I'm doing my part. I'm trying to pee a little more than I take in every day. This is the key, right here. If you don't drink any fluids in the first place, you'll barely have to urinate. And probably not the other, either... And that will cut toilet flushing down to just what's absolutely necessary to get rid of nail file clippings and and cat and dog fur from the flea comb. :D Wait... what am I laughing at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 Lee - thanks for the long informative thread. Seems obvious now that I've read it. Watered lawns do contribute to the water shortage and water pollution. If we didn't use processed drinking water sprayed into the hot daytime air to water the lawns, and if people would xeriscape, plant more trees and not abuse the chemicals, watered lawns would not be a problem. They do serve some useful and aesthetic functions, after all. I don't think they deserve the heaps of fashionable contempt they receive. But doing things the way they've always been done is not going to work, clearly. Water won't be the next petroleum simply because it's a renewable resource, a permanent part of the cycle of life. Petroleum is a one-time shot, use it up, it's gone - it's not part of the natural cycle of life as an energy source, it's a temporary cache. Water issues can be managed indefinitely (altho' maybe with difficulty). Petroleum issues boil down to merely deferring the inevitable. But in the short term, the water issue will be a bitch, no doubt. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 2180 Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 I also study survival tactics, and one of the worst possible things that could happen to Atlanta, would be fire, with no water to stop it. If there was even a outbreak of civil disobedience, you could have a Detroit type issue to deal with. There wouldn't even have to be a full-blow water catastrophe to start the masses showing disapproval, and riots, etc. The one thing I would do, right now, is hoard water in my basement in large containers while there is still water coming from the tap, just throw some chlorine in there and you could have good water for a few months and do-it before everyone-else starts thinking PANIC. It's difficult to imagine that 3 million won't have water in the USA, but just look at New Orleans and ask yourself if you want to survive, because the gov. isn't going to help you, it's all a facade of trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 Don't forget to stock up on ammo so that you can blow away those starving children who are going to try steal your water when the revolution comes, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 I've got a pretty big lot (about 1/3 acre) and a large percentage of it is covered in grass. There's also about 2,800 sq. ft. of buildings, and a similar amount of concrete covered areas, but that still leaves a lot of grass. We do have quite a few trees around the perimeter of the property. My wife thinks it would be better if we paved more of the yard and extended our long driveway all the way back to the studio. It would probably mean less watering, but I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do - does the world need more pavement and concrete? What would you suggest Lee? Our grass is largely Bermuda, and dies / goes dormant in the wintertime, and doesn't get watered except in the spring / summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Sayers Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 After 7 years of drought Australians are changing their gardens from the water guzzling European style to the water hardy native species gardens with bark chips replacing lawns. All our major cities have water restrictions - no washing cars and driveways, no sprinklers, only hand held hoses for one hour after 6pm every second day. People are storing the grey water from their showers and washing machines to water what garden they have left. The government now gives a rebate for the purchase of water tanks and the major cities are all building desalination plants driven by wind power.. It looks like we all just have to get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 My wife thinks it would be better if we paved more of the yard and extended our long driveway all the way back to the studio. It would probably mean less watering, but I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do - does the world need more pavement and concrete? No... and it can have the opposite effect in your climate because it creates heat radiation which promotes more evaporation. And of course, there's less soil to store whatever rainfall does come along. If you really want a driveway going to the studio, a permeable surface would be better. Gravel is better than solid pavement, although it still promotes heat radiation more than I'd want if it were me. There are rubber mulches they make now out of recycled tires, and those work quite well too. Ideally though, you'd have a mix of trees and shrubs, beds (of drought tolerant plants), drought tolerant ground covers, and mulches. Sedums (hen and chicks) look pretty and are a good ground cover, ditto Atlas daisies, greek yarrow, woolly thyme, and ice plant. Many culinary herbs like sage, oregano, thyme and rosemary also actually like hot, dry, crappy soil, so you get the advantage of having fresh herbs as well as a good ground cover. Russian sage and hackberry are nice ornamental shrubs. California poppies, lavender, nasturtium, moss rose are some nice ornamental plants that are drought tolerant and attract beneficial birds and insects. What I would do is cover the perimeter of the property plus the areas around the buildings with beds of shrubs, flowers and herbs. If you mulch the beds with say bark chips, and put drip hoses under the mulch, you've got an inexpensive irrigation system and the drip hoses allow you to use even less water than a hose - although once established these types of plants should need outside water only rarely. So if you can get a lot of the perimeter area planted with that stuff, then you have a smaller area that you need to maintain for foot traffic (like BBQ's ). You can use one of the ground covers I mentioned above if the traffic will be relatively light... and use turf grass only in the heavy foot traffic areas. There are also some turf grasses that use less water than Bermuda, such as buffalograss or tall fescue. Well there are a few ideas... feel free to give me a call if you have other questions or need more ideas... I recall that your property is pretty much entirely flat so that limits some of your options but I'm sure there's a lot of stuff I'm not thinking of at the moment. Our grass is largely Bermuda, and dies / goes dormant in the wintertime, and doesn't get watered except in the spring / summer. Yeah that's not too bad, although it's better to have some plants mixed in that don't go dormant and are able to "breathe" water in and out all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 They do serve some useful and aesthetic functions, after all. I don't think they deserve the heaps of fashionable contempt they receive. Well... in most places, yeah they do actually. Lawns originated in the UK, where it rains plenty with little water lost to evaporation, and the lawns were kept grazed by sheep. It makes sense to have them there, as well as New England and some other northern temperate areas (although even there it's questionable if you have to keep them mowed and fertilized). Otherwise, although sure it's better to have a lawn than to cover your whole yard in concrete , there are usually better alternatives and a lot that look really pretty too. Also, suburban houses (mine included) have mostly been built on old farms - we're using some of the country's most productive farmland to (in many cases) just have a lawn. It doesn't take much space at all to grow all of a family's produce as well as lots of flowering plants and trees mixed in to act as mulch, fertilizer and keeping pests away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rabid Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 Where I live in SE Kentucky is has been the worst in the nation. It has rained at my house 1 day in the last three months. Rain has come through Kentucky but the clouds seem to split when they get to my area. We have less than 30 days in the water supply. The one rain, which happened last week was less than an inch. It was supposed to rain tonight but I think that has been delayed until tomorrow. And yet, last weekend I went to the grocery and saw a school ball team having a car wash to raise money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 If you really want a driveway going to the studio, a permeable surface would be better. Gravel is better than solid pavement, although it still promotes heat radiation more than I'd want if it were me. There are rubber mulches they make now out of recycled tires, and those work quite well too. It actually used to have gravel going all the way back there, but it did radiate a lot of heat, and the grasses and weeds kept springing up through it, meaning I either had to use weed killer (which I prefer to avoid as much as possible) or spend tons of time weeding, so I pulled the gravel and put it into my rosebush planters along the side of the yard and just let the grass overtake the area. As far as the shredded tires, it's also a great surface for martial arts training - seriously. Lots of good suggestions for us to chew on - thanks Lee. :phil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted October 21, 2007 Members Share Posted October 21, 2007 One of the real causes is urbanization - - In less congested areas, each house has a leach field, where sewage is fed underground, naturally decomposed, and the water returns to the local aquifer. But with all the households on a common sewer system, water is flushed through purifying plants right into the nearest river or ocean. So every time somebody does a load of wash, or flushes a toilet, several gallons of water are removed from the aquifer & ends up ultimately in the ocean. Such are the wonders of our technological fixes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.