Members Billster Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 how does one play with ego? By always being the center of attention. Doing inappropriate things that call attention to oneself at the expense of the music. See: most guitar players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members coyote-1 Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 You're missing the point. HAW!!! That is the single most inaccurate thing I have ever read about Miles. He was a prick. I asked Mike Stern that in person once during a set break, "Was Miles really as much of a prick as everyone says?" and he just laughed and looked down. Didn't say no. Hee. Miles was the one who nicknamed him "Fat Time" (ergo song of same name) because he was a little chubby. Miles would push your buttons, he was a button pusher -- and a true egotist in the purest sense of the word. It was part of his genius. You need a HUGE ego to pull off what he did. And Miles certainly did not lack in that department... He was many things but "without ego" was not amongst them. He didn't say Miles had no ego. He said Miles did not let his massive ego get in the way of the music. Miles was once asked about his opting for a more spare style after having played in some of the seminal bebop ensembles. He replied (paraphrase): "People always bring me songs and charts now. I can't play them, there's too many chords." A typical "big ego" would never make such an admission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vbrook Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 I'm already a step ahead of you, as own every one of his releases on LP from that era (and others). I love Miles Davis, that's not the issue. I'm also not trying to knock down an enthusiastic discussion of our love of Miles Davis. I'm critiquing the article. It wasn't written tongue-in-cheek---it was written with seriousness, as a single-thread historical narrative, with the conclusion "genius". It's more designed to cement a view of history than to offer a genuine analysis. And, I think that's bad. It also sets up artificial distances between time periods, it implies completedness and, ultimately serves to drown out other narratives. It's un-intellectual. Listen to the Miles Davis Quintet/Sextet '55-'58 and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerry_picker Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 I'm sorry, but I just can't buy into these "genius" labels. It's too exclusionary and myth-driven. Considering someone the "ultimate" or "the genius" is absurd---and irresponsible history-making. While the article may be flawed, the conclusion "genius" stands. Sheer creativity, groundbreaking and influential, having effects that resonate for decades, producing sounds that define eras (plural) and create (not just participate in) definitive genres, undoubtedly contribute to a highly meaningful, intellectual, and proper application of the term "genius". Since you are so far ahead, please share your analysis of the period I offered and deconstruct it (the period) so that the rest of us can see how this oeuvre is not the stuff of genius. Thanks! The definitions in red certainly apply to Miles Davis: gen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Magpel Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 how does one play with ego? Let me count (some of) the ways! --Through volume--Through quantity or density of notes played in relation to the ensemble--Through an emphasis on speed and "degree of difficulty"--Through lack of receptivity or response (in real time we're talking) to what is being musically suggested by bandmates--Through an over-reliance on a repetoire of stock riffs (why is this ego? Because ego never wants to "look bad" and is as such averse to situations of real danger, where only those unafraid of "looking bad" will go). I mean, if you're talking the Freudian ego, well, yeah, we all play with it and couldn'tt play without it, but by ego, I believe we all mean an inflated sense of self-importance and self as THE driving concern and motive. Ego, pride, narcissism, etc. I know when I am playing "ego first." It happens. Sometimes it even sounds good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerry_picker Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 Let me count (some of) the ways!--Through volume--Through quantity or density of notes played in relation to the ensemble--Through an emphasis on speed and "degree of difficulty"--Through lack of receptivity or response (in real time we're talking) to what is being musically suggested by bandmates--Through an over-reliance on a repetoire of stock riffs (why is this ego? Because ego never wants to "look bad" and is as such averse to situations of real danger, where only those unafraid of "looking bad" will go).I mean, if you're talking the Freudian ego, well, yeah, we all play with it and couldn'tt play without it, but by ego, I believe we all mean an inflated sense of self-importance and self as THE driving concern and motive. Ego, pride, narcissism, etc. I know when I am playing "ego first." It happens. Sometimes it even sounds good! If it sounds good, it IS good. (Duke Ellington) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted August 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 21, 2008 Let me count (some of) the ways!--Through volume--Through quantity or density of notes played in relation to the ensemble--Through an emphasis on speed and "degree of difficulty"--Through lack of receptivity or response (in real time we're talking) to what is being musically suggested by bandmates--Through an over-reliance on a repetoire of stock riffs (why is this ego? Because ego never wants to "look bad" and is as such averse to situations of real danger, where only those unafraid of "looking bad" will go).I mean, if you're talking the Freudian ego, well, yeah, we all play with it and couldn'tt play without it, but by ego, I believe we all mean an inflated sense of self-importance and self as THE driving concern and motive. Ego, pride, narcissism, etc. I know when I am playing "ego first." It happens. Sometimes it even sounds good! Exactly. And I suspect that those that can't see this are players I'd never want to hear. If you can't understand this basic concept of playing without ego... what can I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 Let me count (some of) the ways!--Through volume--Through quantity or density of notes played in relation to the ensemble--Through an emphasis on speed and "degree of difficulty"--Through lack of receptivity or response (in real time we're talking) to what is being musically suggested by bandmates--Through an over-reliance on a repetoire of stock riffs (why is this ego? Because ego never wants to "look bad" and is as such averse to situations of real danger, where only those unafraid of "looking bad" will go).I mean, if you're talking the Freudian ego, well, yeah, we all play with it and couldn'tt play without it, but by ego, I believe we all mean an inflated sense of self-importance and self as THE driving concern and motive. Ego, pride, narcissism, etc. I know when I am playing "ego first." It happens. Sometimes it even sounds good! I would add to that "Not listening to the other musicians and playing your schtick no matter what" I guess that kind of synthesizes your 4th and 5th points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vbrook Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 I initially offered an opinion, which in my personal circles wouldn't be found very controversial at all. I'm very new to online forums, and I apologise, as I don't always appreciate what a big and diverse group of people Harmony Central represents. I'm not in group of 20 people I know personally, and I have to remind myself of that. I received a sarcastic reply from you (especially that darned 'bye bye' symbol). I answered sincerely, and tried to elaborate without going overboard. Now, I've received your latest post, with more sarcasm about 'deconstruction'. Well listen, buster, I don't think you really know what 'deconstruction' is. Moreover, that you're offering simplistic definitions of terms from something called 'answers.com' says quite a lot. Let's end this here. certainly apply to Miles Davis: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerry_picker Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 I initially offered an opinion, which in my personal circles wouldn't be found very controversial at all. I'm very new to online forums, and I apologise, as I don't always appreciate what a big and diverse group of people Harmony Central represents. I'm not in group of 20 people I know personally, and I have to remind myself of that. I received a sarcastic reply from you (especially that darned 'bye bye' symbol). I answered sincerely, and tried to elaborate without going overboard. Now, I've received your latest post, with more sarcasm about 'deconstruction'. Well listen, buster, I don't think you really know what 'deconstruction' is. Moreover, that you're offering simplistic definitions of terms from something called 'answers.com' says quite a lot. Let's end this here. So, you debate by "sincerely" dropping a brick, hurling a few insults, and running? (Not exactly "ending it here", are we?) You know, when you offer a contrarian opinion without substantiating it (and the onus really is on you to do so), and answer rebuttals with ad hominems and a dash for the door, you really don't build credibility. I'm a reasonable guy, and I am inviting a discussion. You seem to think yourself above/beyond the rest of us, apparently basing this status on your collection of recordings. FYI, the "wave" smiley is NOT restricted to bye-bye. It can also mean, "hey there!", "your play", "how about that?" You don't accept the definitions I offered (BTW from the American Heritage Dictionary)...perhaps you prefer the Oxford English Dictionary? More of the same: geniushttp://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/genius?view=uk /jeeniss/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 :cop:I'm not bringing dessert until everyone settles DOWN....... more :love: nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerry_picker Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 :cop:I'm not bringing dessert until everyone settles DOWN....... more :love: nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pop tarts Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 i'm glad you switched dictionaries, because britney spears qualified under the first. how would you define davis' genius? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerry_picker Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 i'm glad you switched dictionaries, because britney spears qualified under the first. how would you define davis' genius? Miles' genius: Sheer prolific creativity and originality, groundbreaking and influential, having effects that resonate for decades, producing sounds that define eras (plural) and create (not just participate in) significant definitive genres. See: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showpost.php?p=29723101&postcount=54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted August 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 21, 2008 Besides all of this aggro {censored}... how about that Miles character? To remind myself what we're talking about I just put in Sketches of Spain. Mmmm. Gil Evens was no slouch arranger either. What a wonderful meshing of talents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerry_picker Posted August 21, 2008 Members Share Posted August 21, 2008 i'm glad you switched dictionaries, because britney spears qualified under the first. It may be a matter of context and degree. Some seriously consider John Holmes to have been a genius in his chosen field. Outside that field, that assignment may be considered odd or irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vbrook Posted August 22, 2008 Members Share Posted August 22, 2008 I listened to Milestones tonight... Genius it is, then, yep. This round, on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted August 24, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 24, 2008 So Sketches of Spain is back in steady rotation in the car... that horn. The thing about Miles, no vibrato. None. And the starkness of his putting his horn out there like that, is the equivalent of Dylan saying, "turn that reverb off" To the virgin ear, some of the sounds that come out of his horn can be interpreted as... ugly? Too hard a word. Not ugly but... unpretty? Not to push any buttons, I do realize the control Miles had over his instrument was light years ahead of Dylan's command if his "instrument". Whatever, he was consciously working an in your face aesthetic that forced you to reevaluate just what "pretty" is. But it's more than pretty. It's soulful and deep, and beautiful. Sketches of Spain is a great diversion from what you're listening to right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted August 24, 2008 Members Share Posted August 24, 2008 Let me play it first, and I explain it to you later what it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kendrix Posted August 26, 2008 Members Share Posted August 26, 2008 As successful and influential as his playing was why is it that no body NO BODY has come even close to sounding anything like Miles? Im not aware of anyone - whether you are talking Bitches Brew or Kind of Blue or any of the other incarnations of Miles. Its way more than just his one. FWIW- I recently learned that Miles was Duane Allmans favorite musician. Miles was often polarizing and provocative. I think this was part of how he manipulated energy to get some music. Hes still polarizing - just look at this thread. Gotta give him credit for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members voodoochild89 Posted August 26, 2008 Members Share Posted August 26, 2008 As successful and influential as his playing was why is it that no body NO BODY has come even close to sounding anything like Miles?Im not aware of anyone - whether you are talking Bitches Brew or Kind of Blue or any of the other incarnations of Miles. Its way more than just his one.FWIW- I recently learned that Miles was Duane Allmans favorite musician. I also heard somewhere that, I believe it was Dicky Betts, sighted Coltrane as one of his favorite musicians. But, in terms of sounding like Miles, one of the definitive characteristics of his playing and overall sound is his incredible phrasing. Regardless of the era, he had this amazing natural flow that's just totally unique to him. He was able to completely embody his music. As far as people who sound like him, Dave Douglass' works have been sort of akin to Miles' style. I wouldn't say he comes near sounding like the genius of Miles, but when he plays it's incredibly obvious that Davis was a huge influence on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted August 26, 2008 Members Share Posted August 26, 2008 "Give this damn jazz to the white, and invent something new" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jimbroni Posted August 31, 2008 Members Share Posted August 31, 2008 instrument over the past decade... A *mind blowing* performer who Miles probably would have loved. Just found out James is playing at the Detroit Jazz Fest on Monday. Can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 31, 2008 Members Share Posted August 31, 2008 As successful and influential as his playing was why is it that no body NO BODY has come even close to sounding anything like Miles?Im not aware of anyone - whether you are talking Bitches Brew or Kind of Blue or any of the other incarnations of Miles. Its way more than just his one. This isn't quite what you're looking for, but whoever's playing trumpet on that recent album. "Miles from India: A Celebration of the Music of Miles Davis" that features Davis alumni and Indian musicians sounds a LOT like Miles. Now, of course someone might...they've played with Miles and it's on a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jimbroni Posted August 31, 2008 Members Share Posted August 31, 2008 This isn't quite what you're looking for, but whoever's playing trumpet on that recent album. "Miles from India: A Celebration of the Music of Miles Davis" that features Davis alumni and Indian musicians sounds a LOT like Miles. Now, of course someone might...they've played with Miles and it's on a I've heard this on XM and admittingly thought it was Miles the first time I listened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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