How much do you value meaning and coherence in songs?

[Lee Knight]

So I guess that I could say, for me , the lyrics in a song are virtually meaningless.

 

I believe you believe that. See, I always make the point about songs from your past. Stairway to Heaven! Those lyrics are trite but... the phrase, "And she's buying a stairway to heaven." We all know it. It is the song. You can not seperate one from the other. So... are lyrics important?

 

You don't have to be aware of every turn of phrase to be the benefactor of a good lyric.

 

Everybody must get stoned

I am Iron Man!

Mississippi Queen! You know what I mean...

I can't GET NO!!! Satisfaction!

Like a bridge over troubled water... I will lay me down

I left my thrill, on Blueberry Hill

Will you be my dixie chicken, I'll be your Tennessee lamb

[Etienne Rambert]

Lee Knight:

"You don't have to be aware of every turn of phrase to be the benefactor of a good lyric."

 

 

Do you mean beneficiary? A benefactor gives. A beneficiary receives.

[the stranger]

Lee Knight: Do you mean beneficiary ? A benefactor gives. A beneficiary receives.

 

How much do you value meaning and coherence in thread replies?

[phaeton]

I believe you believe that. See, I always make the point about songs from your past. Stairway to Heaven! Those lyrics are trite but... the phrase, "And she's buying a stairway to heaven." We all know it. It is the song. You can not seperate one from the other. So... are lyrics important? You don't have to be aware of every turn of phrase to be the benefactor of a good lyric. Everybody must get stoned I am Iron Man! Mississippi Queen! You know what I mean... I can't GET NO!!! Satisfaction! Like a bridge over troubled water... I will lay me down I left my thrill, on Blueberry Hill Will you be my dixie chicken, I'll be your Tennessee lamb

 

Well sure... However, all of those songs are just as recognizable without their lyrics as well, and in many cases just on one riff or note sequence alone. That first reverse bend in Iron Man, or the first couple of arpeggiated chords in Stairway, for instance.

 

Not also that in Satisfaction and Mississippi Queen that those phrases are accentuated by riffs.

 

stuff from the 1950s can be a little tricky though, because many chord progressions were rehashed, and (if you think about it) many lyrics and lyrical concepts were rehashed as well.

 

 

But I guess more my point is not that the vocal lines are pointless or unneccessary, but more that it doesn't matter to me what they're singing about. The voice in the song as another instrument, sure. The story being told, not always.

[Lee Knight]

Lee Knight: Do you mean beneficiary ? A benefactor gives. A beneficiary receives.

 

And I bet English isn't your first language is it? It's always a humbling experience to have my English corrected by someone who speaks it as a 2nd. Yes, thanks, I did mean beneficiary. There's not a real good embarrassed face smilie so just picture this guy red faced.

[offramp]

In essence, I don't really have the dilemma as prescribed in Magpel's first post.

 

 

 

I don't write lyrics.

 

This is because I suck at it. Despite being the son of an English teacher, and employed as one, for a year, in a past life.

 

 

I have my fondness for the occasional free-flowing/post-modern stuff--"goo-goo-ga-joob", anyone?--but I tend to prefer a good story. And on that point, I really like a lot of Billy Joel's work; he tells a good story (Ballad of Billy The Kid, Scenes From An Italian Restaurant) most times, or makes a story out of a feeling or a set of feelings (Rosalinda's Eyes, Big Shot). It's a rare combination, with him, of the music not getting in the way of the lyrics, and vice versa.

 

On the point of the Beatles, it occured to me last night, while cleaning house and letting my mind wander to more interesting things, that the Beatles really became amused at their own success, and that spawned the whole gibberish lyric thing, simply to see how far they could take it.

On the whole, though, I like most of their lyrics.

 

My favorite of all time, though, has to be Sting. I pretty much gave up on trying to write lyrics, after hearing "Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic", which wrapped up the beautiful turmoil of being in love so succintly that I knew I could never match it. He's also good at creating a painting from very few sentences.

 

"Well, it's 5 in the morning and the light has barely broken;

and the rainy streets are empty, for nobody else has woken."

 

I mean...holy {censored}... to paint that scene would have taken me at least 6 lines, 'cause I talk too much. He tells great stories (After The Rain Has Fallen, The Munificent Seven), and captures feelings in amazing detail and brevity (Walking On The Moon, Hole In My Life, A Thousand Years). I could never compete with that, or honor it, or whatever. So, he's got that all sewn up, in my book.

I'll just go back to working on grooves.

[Karma1]

I value meaning and coherence in songs unless I'm listening to Steely Dan.

Or maybe Yes.

[MichaelSaulnier]

Sometimes I reflect on pop culture as it relates to "art".

 

This thread to me... cries out for something from "pop tart land".

 

Oh baby baby, oh baby baby

 

Oh baby baby, how was I supposed to know

That something wasnt right here

Oh baby baby, I shouldnt have let you go

And now youre out of sight, yeah

Show me how you want it to be

Tell me baby cuz I need to know now, oh because

 

Chorus

My loneliness is killin me (and I)

I must confess I still believe (still believe)

When Im not with you I lose my mind

Give me a sign, hit me baby one more time!

 

Oh baby baby, the reason I breathe is you

Boy youve got me blinded

Oh pretty baby, theres nothin that I wouldnt do

Thats not the way I planned it

 

Show me how you want it to be

Tell me baby cuz I need to know now, oh because

 

Chorus

 

Oh baby baby, how was I supposed to know

Oh pretty baby, I shouldnt have let you go

I must confess that my loneliness

Is killin me now

Dont you know I still believe

That you will be here

And give me a sign, hit me baby one more time

 

Chorus

 

I must confess (my loneliness) that my loneliness

(is killing me) is killing me now

(I must confess) dont you (I still believe) know I still believe

That you will be here (I lose my mind)

And give me a sign...

Hit me baby one more time!

 

I've always felt the poignant aching of these lyrics... and noticed the impact of them in advancing the career of the vocalist performing them.

 

Funny isn't it.

 

M

[rasputin1963]

I love the lyrics to Joe South's "Games People Play", especially this strophe:

 

 

Watch 'em while away the hours

In their ivory towers

'Till they're covered up with flowers

In the back of a black limousine

 

 

pretty clever!

[kurdy]

I like both approaches. Coming up with a story that has a beginning, middle and end, taking the essence of it and condensing it into a four-minute pop song that packs an emotional punch is something that takes a lot of skill. I admire writers who do it consistently. Robbie Robertson of The Band was great at it. Harry Chapin, of course. Country music has a long tradition of that approach as well. If you want listeners to pay attention to lyrics, this is a great way to get them to do it.

 

The other way is equally fascinating. Sometimes just stringing a bunch of words together that sound good can make for a really compelling song, if done well. I Am The Walrus is a great example, of course. Another one of my favorites is "Take Me To The Pilot" by Elton John/Bernie Taupin. "Through a glass eye, your throne/Is the one danger zone/Take me to the pilot for control/Take me to the pilot of your soul". Great imagery throughout, yet according to Taupin, the lyrics mean absolutely nothing.

 

So yeah, I like both approaches. It's like ice-cream--sometimes you feel like chocolate, sometimes you feel like strawberry. Depends on what you're in the mood for. Just one flavor gets boring after a while.

[Lee Knight]

Oh baby baby, oh baby baby Oh baby baby, how was I supposed to know That something wasn't right here Oh baby baby, I shouldn't have let you go And now you're out of sight, yeah Show me how you want it to be Tell me baby cuz I need to know now, oh because Chorus My loneliness is killin me (and I) I must confess I still believe (still believe) When I'm not with you I lose my mind Give me a sign, hit me baby one more time! Oh baby baby, the reason I breathe is you Boy you've got me blinded Oh pretty baby, theres nothing that I wouldn't do Thats not the way I planned it... ...I've always felt the poignant aching of these lyrics... and noticed the impact of them in advancing the career of the vocalist performing them. Funny isn't it. M

 

Max Martin. Martin is a great excuse for not having too much meaning or coherence in songs. I love his stuff. NOTHING gets in the way of the song hitting at all the right moments. We can make fun of this song above, but the reality is it really hits the mark. So many people have covered as a joke. Fountains of Wayne, Panic at the Disco, Dweezil Zappa, Travis. But the reality is, they dug it as they were making fun.

 

So Hit Me Baby is a perfect example of tossing out any deep meaning or real coherence in exchange for having the song do what it's supposed to do.

 

My loneliness... is killing me

 

The softness of the L's in loneliness are perfect for the meaning of loneliness. Then that great tiny pause... after the word loneliness. Then the S in "is" and the K in "killing" are great. More to the meaning of her pain... is killing me. More desperate.

 

The song's such a joke because it's so great in a Max Martin way. I must confess, I still believe. Even more caustic because the rhythm of the phrase must confess really digs into those consonants and ss's. Must confess.

 

So many people cover it for fun because it's so fun. Max Martin is my biggest guilty pleasure. Imagine it sung in Swed-glish accent. Ace of Rox-Abba.

[slight-return]

 

So Hit Me Baby is a perfect example of tossing out any deep meaning or real coherence in exchange for having the song do what it's supposed to do.

 

 

hmm, maybe we are talking about different aspects - I find the song highly coherent (to me the narrative seems really concrete and linear with little ambiguity)

[Lee Knight]

 

hmm, maybe we are talking about different aspects - I find the song highly coherent (to me the narrative seems really concrete and linear with little ambiguity)

 

 

You're absolutely right. I'm getting off topic. Depth vs. Impact. Not much depth there, but lot's o' impact. Though I always was thrown a bit by the "hit" reference. Hit me with your love? Your fist? What. Yet in the context of the arrangement it makes complete sense.

[kurdy]

Since we're talking about Max Martin, thought I'd bring up an even less coherent lyric:

 

"I Want It That Way"

 

Yeah

 

You are my fire

The one desire

Believe when I say

I want it that way

 

But we are two worlds apart

Can't reach to your heart

When you say

That I want it that way

 

[Chorus:]

Tell me why

Ain't nothin' but a heartache

Tell me why

Ain't nothin' but a mistake

Tell me why

I never wanna hear you say

I want it that way

 

Am I your fire

Your one desire

Yes I know it's too late

But I want it that way

 

[Chorus]

 

Now I can see that we're falling apart

From the way that it used to be, yeah

No matter the distance

I want you to know

That deep down inside of me...

 

You are my fire

The one desire

You are

You are, you are, you are

 

Don't wanna hear you say

Ain't nothin' but a heartache

Ain't nothin' but a mistake

(Don't wanna hear you say)

I never wanna hear you say

I want it that way

 

Tell me why

Ain't nothin' but a heartache

Tell me why

Ain't nothin but a mistake

Tell me why

I never wanna hear you say

(Don't wanna hear you say it)

I want it that way

I want it that way

 

Now it's already been about ten years since this song was being played on the radio every five seconds, and I'm still recovering from it. But there's no denying how infectious the song was/is. The lyrics don't really say anything, or even make sense (He wants what what way?) I remember hearing somewhere that the lyrics were nearly rewritten, but they decided to leave it the way it was, because it just sounded so good. The meaning doesn't matter, because the melody and the hook is strong enough to make up for it. Almost. The song's never been a favorite of mine, but you gotta give credit where credit is due.

 

Another great example I just thought of is "Bad Day" by Daniel Powter. (Radio ran this one into the ground as well.) Everyone thought they could relate to the song, thinking, "Yeah--I have bad days too!" However, go find the lyrics sometime. (I'll refrain from printing them here.) It becomes apparent the only line in the song that makes any sense is "You had a bad day". But damn if that song didn't get stuck in your head. It's just a really well-crafted pop song with a great hook.

 

People often say "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts", and I think that's especially true when it comes to songwriting.

[Lee Knight]

I Want it That Way is a great example of foregoing coherence to create impact. The words sound great and mean nothing. ABBA did the same thing. Their songs actually do mean something, but in a weird translated to English kind of way.

 

This Swede to English thing always pointed out to me that, yes, the lyrics are important, but they need to serve the medium first, not the page. I Want It That Way, that phrase sounds great sung. And it sort of makes sense if you're not paying attention.

[Rabid]

I like lyrics that have meaning on two levels. I think my first lesson in this was Brown Sugar. Songs that do that make listening an adventure. I also like phrases that I wish I had written.

 

[slight-return]

"I Want It That Way"

 

Yeah

 

You are my fire

The one desire..

 

 

Man, this is funky [i wonder if we are thinking about "coherent" in totally different ways] - I find those lyrics really coherent (and the theme not too different from "hit me")

 

Depth vs. Impact. -- Lee Knight

 

I guess I'm not really seeing "coherent" as a depth v impact issue - but as an intelligibility or self consistency issue

like coherent light of a laser

[Lee Knight]

Well, man... the Swede-glish gets me every time. It does make sense, but it is so awkward that as I listen, it really sounds wrong. And strangely very right for a pop song. The wording gets mixed up in my mind.

 

I want it... It = love. Yeah, it's all there, but sometimes confusing in that Swede-glish way. I honestly listened to that song for a long time and had no idea what it was about. Love and some other gobbly gook. But it never connected. Ain't nothing but a heartache. Ain't... What ain't? Love. Oh, I get it. It's all mixed up and very non English.

 

But it still works for me because of the sounds of the words and their intrinsic rhythm and cadence. Appreciation of their sounds from someone who speaks another language first. A different and interesting perspective.

[kurdy]

 

- I find those lyrics really coherent (and the theme not too different from "hit me") Depth vs. Impact. -- Lee Knight I guess I'm not really seeing "coherent" as a depth v impact issue - but as an intelligibility or self consistency issue like coherent light of a laser

 

 

OK--I'll give you that. The song's theme appears to be--he wants to be close to her, she wants to stay far away from him, and he's bummed about it.

 

I guess the issue is less about coherence and more about depth--the lyrics just provide very little information. But I still would say the lyrics could be completely random, and it probably wouldn't matter. The hook and the melody is what carries it.

 

I guess those lyrics just create the illusion of incoherence, because of the language change--some of the lines just don't sound quite right in English. On closer inspection though, you can kinda tell what they are trying to get at.

[Lee Knight]

What Kurdy said... except that I don't think the words are interchangable as the Swedes, or at least Max Martin in this case, have a very good ear for the sounds of words. The things the words do to the singer's lips and tongue that facilitate performance. That bring interest. It's overlooked a lot. The Swedes get it.

[slight-return]

 

O But I still would say the lyrics could be completely random, and it probably wouldn't matter. The hook and the melody is what carries it.

 

 

That's cool - I mean I'm not addressing the worth or value or if the piece aesthetically "works" - I was just interested in the "coherence" aspect of it.

 

I think that may be part of the disconnect, I'm not really looking at that part at all, so my thoughts on it aren't really containing depth of message, artistic impact, aesthetic value components at all

 

 

[oof - know what? -- this is going to sound really contrarian, I swear I'm not -- just thought I'd offer my impression/perspective and I think this might be tied back into that I'm looking at coherence itself, as opposed to the artistic impact

I'm not finding the swedlish hard to parse...esp if you are preped to look at at it as poem instead of formal prose. Reads almost like informal monologue - like I don't think that I could peg it as swedlish.

Does bring up an interesting point fo shizzy about use of dialect and idomatic expression and how, outside of the culture, that can just not play...happens sometimes in Localization]

[aeon]

 

How would you characterize your tastes in song lyrics? 1. In your humbop, do the best songs really hold together on the thematic level and have that great poem-like quality where every cliche-free image and detail supports a strong theme or dominant image? On some levels are song lyrics arguments or propositions? Do they hold up to analysis and reveal a well-integrated theme? 2. Or do you allow, enjoy, even encourage more free flowing, associative, post-mod lyrics where the demands for clear meaning and coherence are pretty slight, but you sorta judge the lyrics on the cool vibe factor, the evocations and references, clever snippets, a really cool striking phrase or image here or there, maybe a global mood or character to the song

 

 

I appreciate #1, but in general, I prefer #2.

 

If I consider it from the perspective of Jungian cognitive function use, it makes sense. My top 4 functions are Fi, Fe, Ni, and Ne, in that order.

 

 

cheers,

Ian

[JailTime]

I love the "If it sucks, it sucks, and if it's good it's good," responses. Way to offer nothing. I fall into category 2. It just has to grab and not turn me off with a lyric. That's a big deal, cause a tune can be pretty good, have decent lyrics for the most part, but contain one line that sticks out (either by stupidity or repetition (George and 'I got My Mind Set on You')) and the song can be ruined for me. But if the lyrics fall into category 1 - I may not even notice for a while. when I do, that's when a song has real staying power for me.

 

Great question and great post.

[rasputin1963]

Want to hear just how anal I am about lyrics? Here's one that I took issue with this morning whilst hearing it on online radio: The old Drifters hit "Save The Last Dance For Me" (Shuman/Pomus) from about 1961 or so.

 

Watch how this Verse segues into the Chorus:

 

(VERSE 2)

Oh I know that the music's fine

Like sparklin' wine, go and have your fun.

Laugh and sing, but while we're apart

Don't give your heart to anyone.

 

(CHORUS)

But don't forget who's takin' you home

And in whose arms you're gonna be.

So darlin' save the last dance for me

 

 

To issue a command like, "don't give your heart to anyone."

 

....then follow it with another negative command starting with "but", like "But don't forget who's takin' you home...." etc.

 

Sounds really ungainly to me. Perhaps substituting "and" instead of "but" might've placated me.

 

Rare that you'll find me picking on a Brill Building number, though: they're usually beyond reproach.

[Hard Truth]

I don't mind nonsense songs that just sound musically cool. I don't mind using fairly abstract words to create a vague impression. But if a song is meant to have a literal meaning, I much prefer normal grammar and a lack of cheap easy rhymes.

 

I hate it when the structure of a sentence is turned inside out just so the rhyming word is at the end of the line. I also hate it when the lyric writer just picks the first rhyme that comes into their head rather than doing the work of finding one that makes more sense. I hate songs that list things instead of actually having something to say.