Gibson 2017 Lineup... Spill It.

[Chris Loeffler]

Craig,

 

I know there's the whole "maintaining content neutrality thing" that is important to Gibson and yourself, but you're in the belly of the beast. Any chance you could spill the beans on what the 2017 lineup for Gibson is, or do we have to wait for NAMM? Based on the direction they headed in 2016, I'm interested to see what they've cooked up. Based on some of your recent articles, I know you've put your hands on at least a few of them ;-)

 

How about it... be our inside man?

[Anderton]

Sure, no problem. I've built up a pretty good relationship with the people at the Gibson USA factory, because I borrow guitars a lot for testing but also for sampling...I borrowed a Midtown bass, EB5, and Les Paul bass to do the Gibson Bass Expansion Pack for Cakewalk, and a Melody Maker in 2014 for when I really really needed a P-90 sound for a song I was doing. Being a guitar addict, this is a good position to be in

 

For the 2017s, we have a bunch of them here that are called "playable scrap." What that means is they have some flaw so they can't be sold, like a nick or scratch or something. Normally these get sawed in half, so there's no way they can end up in the outside world (just the thought of sawing any guitar in half is painful, but I know Paul Reed Smith does the same thing). However as long as they don't leave the offices we're okay.

 

I guess the place to start is that the 2015 models had the G FORCE automatic tuning on all the guitars and a wider fingerboard, and reactions were mixed. So in 2016 Gibson created two parallel lines, the Traditional "T" line and High Performance "HP" line. The T guitars were conventional guitars with standard tuners, hand-wiring on some guitars, etc. while the HPs had G FORCE although the wider neck was scaled back. 2017 refines the same basic idea.

 

Now, be aware that I have definite opinions about these guitars regarding what I prefer. But, I wasn't hired by Gibson to say "yes" to everything, I had consulted to Gibson for years before joining because they valued an objective voice. And when Gibson bought Harmony Central, Henry specifically said I could tear something apart if I really felt it sucked...which I did in the case of the brass zero-fret nut on the 2015 guitars. It was a great idea for reasons I'll get into later, but c'mon...brass?!? Anyway they're made of titanium now, which means you don't get grooves after doing lots of string bends (owners of guitars with the brass nuts can get replacements, so I guess all's well that ends well). However note that the zero-fret is only on the HP guitars, which is one of the reasons I prefer the HP models.

 

Some of my opinions are unpopular with other guitarists, too. For example some Gibsons have hand-wired electronics and some attach the parts to a circuit board that fits in the control pocket. Most players I know think the hand-wiring is cooler, and one advantage I see is that if a pot goes bad, you can just remove it and solder a new one in. But I would rather have a guitar with a circuit board, because you can carry a spare on the road and replace it in a minute or two if you have some pliers and a Phillips head screwdriver - you don't need a soldering iron.

 

Another area where I go against the conventional wisdom is about Orange Drop capacitors. Some players swear they improve the tone but I think it has nothing to do with the capacitors themselves - it's because they're precision parts with precise tolerances and aren't affected by temperature. If you bring your guitar in from the cold and it gets hit by spotlights, your tone stays the same. With ceramic capacitors, anything can happen. Realistically, any truly precision capacitor will do as good a job but the Orange Drops do have an outstanding reputation for reliability, so that's why Gibson uses them.

 

And I have to be upfront that I really like the 2017 guitars. So even though I have the green light to say what I want, I feel the need to restrain myself and stick to the facts. Frankly I'm more of an "HP" guy but having played all the guitars for several weeks now, I see the pros and cons of the different models. For example the Traditional Les Paul in the T line is your father's Les Paul - and that sucker is heavy. I'd play it in the studio, but not if I was playing a three-hour set. For that, I'd look at the guitars with what Gibson calls "Ultra-Modern" weight relief.

 

Actually it's kind of hard to know where to begin. What do you want me to cover...or perhaps more to the point, what do you want me to cover first?

[Mandolin Picker]

For the 2017s' date=' we have a bunch of them here that are called "playable scrap." What that means is they have some flaw so they can't be sold, like a nick or scratch or something. [/quote']

 

I thought that buying 'stressed guitars' was all the rage - that people were taking perfectly good guitars and messing them up so they wouldn't look brand new. Seems Gibson is missing out on starting a new line of 'stressed' guitars!

[badpenguin]

What about the "Zero" line I have seen in a few stores? I played 3 of them, a Firebird Zero and 2 SG Zeros, and felt they were one of the biggest POS guitars I have ever seen. Bad fret ends, a wrap around bridge that fully against the body, left the strings about a 1/4" above the 12th fret, and marginal electronics. Is Gibby going to release them fully? Or have they, and no one wants you know about them?

[Chris Loeffler]

Actually it's kind of hard to know where to begin. What do you want me to cover...or perhaps more to the point' date=' what do you want me to cover first?[/quote']

 

Obviously... some photos should happen. Of all the 2017s you've played, which is the one you most want to bring home, and why?

[Chris Loeffler]

 

I thought that buying 'stressed guitars' was all the rage - that people were taking perfectly good guitars and messing them up so they wouldn't look brand new. Seems Gibson is missing out on starting a new line of 'stressed' guitars!

[Chris Loeffler]

What about the "Zero" line I have seen in a few stores? I played 3 of them' date=' a Firebird Zero and 2 SG Zeros, and felt they were one of the biggest POS guitars I have ever seen. Bad fret ends, a wrap around bridge that fully against the body, left the strings about a 1/4" above the 12th fret, and marginal electronics. Is Gibby going to release them fully? Or have they, and no one wants you know about them?[/quote']

Looks like MF has the Firebirds. $500 for a US-made Gibson dropped my jaw for a minute, but the customer reviews do seem a little divisive.

[Anderton]

What about the "Zero" line I have seen in a few stores? I played 3 of them' date=' a Firebird Zero and 2 SG Zeros, and felt they were one of the biggest POS guitars I have ever seen. Bad fret ends, a wrap around bridge that fully against the body, left the strings about a 1/4" above the 12th fret, and marginal electronics. Is Gibby going to release them fully? Or have they, and no one wants you know about them?[/quote']

 

 

I haven't played those, so I can't really comment. I've only played the Les Pauls (and will be checking out the SGs next). I did look at the user reviews Chris cited, and it seems they could be summed up as "corners had to be cut to reach that price point." But then I found these reviews, also from Musician's Friend on the Firebird Zero, which are quite favorable. The user reviews on zZounds are all very favorable. So maybe Gibson is still refining the process for what is a new kind of venture.

 

When you have handmade guitars there will always be variations, which is why people have to do what you did - play a guitar for themselves. I've often played more than one guitar of the (theoretically) same kind before finding one I liked, and I suspect that would be an even more common experience with lower-priced instruments.

[Anderton]

 

Obviously... some photos should happen. Of all the 2017s you've played, which is the one you most want to bring home, and why?

 

 

Hmmm...well, let's separate which T line guitar I'd want, and which HP. Bear in mind that guitars are very personal animals, so there's a huge amount of subjectivity. Still, as to the T line, I think the answer would surprise you because it surprises me: the Les Paul Faded. Of all the articles I've written on the guitars, I allowed myself to get a bit subjective on this one because I really bonded with it.

 

I have a 2014 LP Standard on loan that never leaves the studio, so I'm covered for a "luxurious" guitar (it's the one in my YouTube videos). What appeals to me about the Faded is it's an "elegant punk," and the kind of guitar I'd want to take on stage.

 

 

One of the reasons I surprise myself about this choice is I do NOT like "distressed" guitars and guitars that fake being old, yet a lot of people describe the Faded in that context. That's not the way I see it at all. It's definitely not a figured top with a high-gloss finish, I get that, but I see it as a different type of "new" finish. The picture doesn't do it justice; it's less shiny and there's more contrast in the texture.

 

It's a guitar with an attitude, and I like attitude However I'm not a fan of the worn brown version, I much prefer the Cherry Red and the way the black pickups and pickguard complement the red body. I also like that there aren't covers on the pickups, the visuals are more "raw."

 

However I'm not just a slave to fashion, there are practical considerations. For stage use I'm totally on board with ultra-modern weight relief. Yeah, call me a wimp, but I like to move around with my guitar and lighter is better. The sound is a little more resonant than without weight relief, but that's neither a plus nor a minus for me because I do a lot of processing anyway. Similarly, I really don't care all that much about pickups. I'm an FRFR amp kind of guy, so I get my sound between the guitar and the amp. The pickups don't factor that much into it unless we're talking a really significant difference, like humbuckers vs. P90s. I'll probably get pushback if anyone from Gibson reads this but for my purposes, one Gibson humbucker sounds like pretty much like any other Gibson humbucker by the time the audio output has gone through my various "secret sauces." I adjust those to get the sound I want, I don't change pickups. I can even get a true single-coil sound out of humbuckers if I want.

 

Getting back to the feel, I totally love the feel of the neck and that's a huge factor in why I gravitated to this guitar. I don't know if that's a "happy accident" because of the satiny finish, but it feels glossy even though the finish isn't, and it also breaks with tradition to some extent by being a maple neck. I actually like maple necks, not necessarily "better" than I like mahogany, but because maple necks seem to hold tuning better on stage under adverse circumstances. It could be my imagination...I dunno, I'm not a guitar scientist, I just play the things. It's also a rolled neck, so it feels really smooth, and it's a SlimTaper profile.

 

If I could have designed it, I would want push/pull knobs to do the tuned coil tap alternate sound. Also I like the asymmetrical SlimTaper neck more, but that would add to the cost (I'm told they're tough to make) and one of the things I like about the Faded is it's selling for $799. This puts it in the running for taking to gigs where it will live under less-than-optimum conditions. I also prefer speed knobs but I could always retrofit the guitar with those. For anything else I'd change, the answer would be "Well then, get the HP version."

 

Some people might think "well, it's too plain. The inlays are dots instead of trapezoids, there's no binding, the top has no figuring, the tuners aren't locking, it's not glossy," etc. etc. However, that's what I like about the guitar. At the risk of making what some might see as a sexist comparison (sorry, I couldn't come up with anything better), it's like those women who look absolutely fabulous without makeup. Then again I drive a VW, not a BMW, so you get where I'm coming from - that's why I'd choose the Faded. I don't expect this to make sense to anyone else as to why I'd choose the Faded over something like the Tribute or the Classic, but you know how it is...sometimes you just click with a guitar, and it feels like you've played it forever. The fact that I love how it looks is icing on the cake. I'd be really interested to hear what anyone else who's played a Faded thinks of it.

 

 

[Chris Loeffler]

I remember the Faded series (obviously very different) in the late 00's when I worked as a buyer at Musician's Friend, so I'm not as surprised as you'd expect that you felt that way. I never understood how they sold for 2/3-1/2 the MAP of a standard LP or SG but had everything that made the guitar, sonically and cosmetically. I concur, the worn brown version had me scratching my head when compared to worn cherry, but still... even then there was that "raw" aesthetic you are describing that I loved.

 

That said, I've always felt Gibson might be unnecessarily "downgrading" these guitars (emotionally) by calling them "faded". I live in Southern Oregon, and Faded has nothing but negative connotations to my area. "Reliced" implies (to me) a guitar that has been through the paces in an almost abusive way. "Worn" suggests a guitar that has been lovingly used. "Faded", on the other hand... that's the day after a meth binge and almost sounds "diminished", to me (most thesauruses seem to support me).

 

Very interesting that, almost 10 years later, the Faded series has a significant allure. I WILL one day own a faded cherry SG... with P-90's! (Am I out of luck for 2017?).

 

But... Before we get too far into other things, you'd mentioned liking the zero-fret nut. Why? It just seems like one more thing to adjust, which most people would end up setting to pretty much the same height anyway.

[AlamoJoe]

I'm old and stressed...And I earned these wrinkles by God. I would not buy any guitar that was "Stressed" and didn't earn it.

[AlamoJoe]

I know that Mark Longworth has a "Faded" Les Paul and it's become his main guitar. In my humble opinion he's written and recorded some really good songs with it. Now another of my heroes has given it a good review. Sounds like a good choice! I don't buy many guitars. I average about one every 15 to 20 years. I've got a brand new Epi ES-339 Pro all wrapped up under the tree right now. I know...Not that impressive. But I'm pretty pumped. Still....I'm thinking...For $325 more I coulda had one of these faded LP's.

 

But that woulda required shorting the Missus and the Lad in the present department.....Na....I'm good....But mebbe someday...

[Chris Loeffler]

I've got a brand new Epi ES-339 Pro all wrapped up under the tree right now. I know...Not that impressive. But I'm pretty pumped. Still....I'm thinking...For $325 more I coulda had one of these faded LP's

 

Totally agree with you... that's quite a guitar you have waiting. I'd love to have one. I'm set on LPs, but yeah... faded series is very intriguing... especially when Craig Anderton reenforces my opinion by saying it's his darling of he 2017 line.

 

Not going to lie, though... I'd love to have a LP Supreme on my wall (when the kids are grown and moved out!).

 

[AlamoJoe]

 

Totally agree with you... that's quite a guitar you have waiting. I'd love to have one. I'm set on LPs, but yeah... faded series is very intriguing... especially when Craig Anderton reenforces my opinion by saying it's his darling of he 2017 line.

 

Not going to lie, though... I'd love to have a LP Supreme on my wall (when the kids are grown and moved out!).

I had a beauty of a Les Paul...A 1975 Black Beauty Custom...Had to sell it to keep a roof over me, the Wife and The Lad's head. While I dearly miss the guitar..I'd miss them more. Hang in there Chris...Dreams do come true... I just made my last mortgage payment...I may or not ever own a LP...But it's not as far away as it once was..

[Anderton]

I just made my last mortgage payment.

 

Break out the champagne!! Congratulations!!!!!!!!!

 

[AlamoJoe]

 

Break out the champagne!! Congratulations!!!!!!!!!

As a matter of fact..We did! It's been a long 30 years. My wife and I are the only people we know that still live in the first house we bought.

Not exactly upwardly mobile..But it's worth 3 times the original purchase price now.

Thanks!

[Phil O'Keefe]

When you have handmade guitars there will always be variations, which is why people have to do what you did - play a guitar for themselves. I've often played more than one guitar of the (theoretically) same kind before finding one I liked, and I suspect that would be an even more common experience with lower-priced instruments.

 

I've always kind of looked upon reviews as not so much a definitive guide for what to buy or not buy, but a way to narrow down the field - hopefully the review (whether written by me or someone else) will tell the reader the important details about the guitar so they can make an informed decision regarding whether or not it might be of interest to them. From there, you really do need to go try one out for yourself and make up your own mind.

 

Just one example - neck profiles. At 5'8", I'm not a big guy (growing waistline aside ) and I have smaller hands than Donald Trump, so I tend to be fairly picky about neck profiles. If I see in a review that a model has a "50's rounded" profile, that's a pretty good indicator that I should look elsewhere. For me personally, a SlimTaper / 60s profile is far more playable.

 

But while I'll mention the neck profile in a review, I don't ding the guitar if it has a profile I don't like, because I realize that many players prefer the meatier neck for a variety of reasons. It's a matter of personal preference and tastes, and mine shouldn't be what matters - it's the reader's preferences that matter in their purchasing decision. That's why I try to give them the details and let them make up their own minds.

 

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

That rocks - congrats Joe!

[Phil O'Keefe]

Craig, the 2017 model that has really piqued my interest is the 2017 Les Paul Tribute T - we were just discussing those the other day in another thread here. It seems to hit all the right buttons (for me anyway) - trapezoid inlays on a rosewood board with a SlimTaper neck profile, maple cap on a weight-relieved mahogany body, with traditional controls in the traditional locations... and all for under a thousand dollars "street."

 

Have you by any chance had the opportunity to try one of those out?

[Anderton]

But... Before we get too far into other things' date=' you'd mentioned liking the zero-fret nut. Why? It just seems like one more thing to adjust, which most people would end up setting to pretty much the same height anyway.[/color'][/size]

 

There are two reasons. One is that it allows for what I call "4-point Action Adjustment" - I wrote an article about it for Gibson so I won't repeat myself here, except to say that being able to angle strings at the nut as well as the bridge opens up more options in terms of setting the kind of action you prefer to match your playing style.

 

But what I really like is the "instant slide guitar" possibility, which no one else seems to talk about. Because the high-performance guitars have G Force automatic tuning (I'll open that can of worms later...), what I do is adjust the nut up as high as it will go, do an open tuning with G Force...done - slide guitar in under a minute. The only reason there's a lot of slide guitar on my "

is because this feature came along (t

takes you to a slide solo I did with a Les Paul Standard.)

 

The downside is that it takes much longer to return to normal because you need to adjust the nut carefully for the action you want. However, in practice it's more important that I be able to get into slide guitar mode fast and strike while the iron is hot, so I'm okay with that.

 

 

[Chris Loeffler]

But what I really like is the "instant slide guitar" possibility, which no one else seems to talk about.

 

Very cool! I wouldn't even have thought of that. Probably merits a "How to go from a standard tuned LP to an Open G slider guitar in x minutes" video.

 

[Chris Loeffler]

Another area where I go against the conventional wisdom is about Orange Drop capacitors. Some players swear they improve the tone but I think it has nothing to do with the capacitors themselves - it's because they're precision parts with precise tolerances and aren't affected by temperature. If you bring your guitar in from the cold and it gets hit by spotlights' date=' your tone stays the same. With ceramic capacitors, anything can happen. Realistically, any [i']truly [/i]precision capacitor will do as good a job but the Orange Drops do have an outstanding reputation for reliability, so that's why Gibson uses them.

 

Mojo explained away with science.

 

[Anderton]

Craig' date=' the 2017 model that has really piqued my interest is the 2017 Les Paul Tribute T - we were just discussing those the other day in another thread here. It seems to hit all the right buttons (for me anyway) - trapezoid inlays on a rosewood board with a SlimTaper neck profile, maple cap on a weight-relieved mahogany body, with traditional controls in the traditional locations... and all for under a thousand dollars "street."

 

Have you by any chance had the opportunity to try one of those out?

 

Yes, I wrote an article about it...to me the Faded and Tribute are complementary. I described the Faded as "Clash, not Clapton" and the Tribute as "Clapton, not Clash."

 

As to hitting all the right buttons, it's an interesting hybrid of the pure Traditional and something more modern. It has weight relief, but it's the original 9-hole type, so it's heavier than the Faded but lighter than the Traditional. Both the Faded and the Tribute have the same pickups, 490R and 490T, which many associate with the classic Gibson humbucker sound although the Faded takes off the covers. But the Tribute visuals are much more traditional than the Faded, down to the knobs...look at it from a distance, and you might think it's a remake of a '59. It also has trapezoidal inlays instead of dots, and I have to say that the satin gold finish is outstanding. I was always a fan of the gold finish.

 

Speaking personally, though, I don't have the same reverence for the '59 Les Paul as the rest of the world. When I first joined Gibson, a friend said "Okay, now you've had a chance to really check out the guitars, level with me...is the Custom shop '59 re-issue really as good as vintage '59 Les Paul? Wouldn't you buy the genuine article instead of a re-issue?" I said yes, I'd definitely buy the "real thing," and he looked at me with that look of "Yeah, I knew it." But then I added that the reason why was because I could sell the vintage one for a bazillion dollars, and then buy all the new guitars I could ever want The reality is that the QC on the original '59 pales compared to today's level of QC. You can find a magical '59, but not all of them hit that level by any means. All the re-issues I've played are consistently like a genuine '59 that did have good quality control.

 

But to bring this back to the Tribute, it was intended to bring the flavor of the '59 Les Paul in at a price real people could afford. Like the faded, the cost reduction comes from not having a super-high-gloss nitrocelluose finish (I was shocked when I found out how difficult/time-consuming/expensive that is to do), binding, chrome plating, or an asymmetrical SlimTaper neck. So really, the lower price doesn't compromise playability. People here go nuts over the Tribute, but in a Faded-vs.-Tribute shootout, I'd still take the Faded because it's such a different type of guitar. Then again if I had a well-paying gig lined up in a blues band, I'd go for the Tribute (as long as the sets weren't hours long--I'd need the Ultra-Modern weight relief) because it fits right into that kind of genre.

 

As always...play it yourself, and see what you think. You've mentioned having even smaller hands than Donald Trump (assuming that's even possible), so I think a guitar with a SlimTaper neck would be optimum for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chris Loeffler]

That's an interesting approach Gibson is taking... certainly easier product positioning for consumers.

 

I see on Sweetwater they are treating different colors of what appear to be the same model as unique SKUs... is that just something they are doing, or are there other differences? If it's just a color change, that kind of adds to the confusion of understanding each of the lines.

[Anderton]

I think each color is its own SKU but I'd have to verify.