Members andyville99 Posted December 12, 2017 Members Share Posted December 12, 2017 Hi Folks,I just received a new 2016 LP Traditional HP Desert Burst from Sweetwater. I had the robo-tuners replaced with Grover nickel tuners before they shipped it to me. This model has the titanium zero fret nut, which I thought sounded like a good feature, given nut issues I've had with 3 prior LPs... however.... I'm having a tuning issue though that I've never seen before. If I tune the guitar low E to high E (using an electronic tuner), when I get through the low E and A have gone sharp, significantly. It's proving nearly impossible to get all of the strings in tune at the same time. Tuning the higher strings seems to have the most effect on the lower strings, making them go sharp. My suspicion was that the nut was being depressed by tension when tuning the strings on the high side, pushing it up on the low side and therefore making the lower strings (low E and A) go sharp. Called Sweetwater and talked to their support team who said they didn't believe the nut could be moving. But if that's not it, I'm at a loss. Increased tension on the neck from tuning up other strings would make strings already tuned go flat rather than sharp. So, anybody have a clue on this? The setup on the guitar was decent when I got it. Relief looks proper. I tried lowering the nut a bit because it was higher than I liked, but the problem still happens. Bridge looks ok and intonation is ok for each string. Tuners seem solid and installed nicely. Just seems really weird that strings are going sharp rather than flat. I'm to the point of wanting to install a more standard nut, but haven't gotten to the point of sorting out what the proper size would be to fit in the nut slot. Looks like the Graph Tech TUSQ XL nuts would be good but I need to determine which one has the proper string spacing, width, and thickness. And I'm a little concerned about whether a standard nut would give me the same distance from the nut to first fret as the zero fret nut?? Never had problems setting up a guitar myself before, but this one has me beat... anybody who's experienced this and has a potential solution would be awesome! Thanks,Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted December 12, 2017 Members Share Posted December 12, 2017 If it's doing what you're suspecting (sounds likely) then it should definitely be taken out and reseated properly. I'd probably use a few tiny dots of glue too. You really want that solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted December 12, 2017 Members Share Posted December 12, 2017 Actually - it doesn't look like glue is an option, but would pay to take it apart and make sure it's all tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted December 12, 2017 Members Share Posted December 12, 2017 Found this one the Gibson site. Someone asked if it was supposed to fall off when you change strings. This reply might help. "Hope you got this one figured out. It has a "Locking" screw when you get the height adjusted as you want that will not only hold the nut on to the guitar but also stabilize it or, keep it from moving." That said I would check that it is locked in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 12, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 12, 2017 Thanks for the replies - the 2016 nut is different than the 2015 version, because it has a center screw that supposedly locks it to nut slot. I've made sure it's securely tightened, hoping that was the culprit, but that wasn't it. it behaved exactly the same after tightening the screw. I'm going to take the strings off and remove the nut to see exactly how it sits in the slot. The upper, adjustable portion of the nut has an adjustment screw close to each end of the nut so each end can be raised or lowered independently. What I'm wondering is what those adjustment screws are pressing against? I don't know if they are simply pressing against the wood underneath, which wouldn't be very stable, or if there's a housing or plate underneath that it rests on... at any rate if it's not the nut, then I'm really wondering what the cause might be.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 13, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 13, 2017 Last night I loosened and pulled the strings aside and unscrewed the top portion of the nut to see how it fit into the lower channel. Well, it really doesn't seat very securely into the lower channel - it has a lot of movement and play when just sitting in the channel without being screwed in. When I then re-secured it with the center screw it seemed reasonably secure to the touch, but I'm not really convinced that under the tension and pressure of six strings that it isn't moving a tiny bit, which could cause pitch differences. I put some string lube on the slots and put the strings back in place and retuned the guitar. It seemed to tune a bit better than before, but I didn't get to spend enough time checking it out to see if the problem was really solved. Will report back after I get to check it out further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted December 13, 2017 Members Share Posted December 13, 2017 Have you checked the tuner nuts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted December 13, 2017 Members Share Posted December 13, 2017 Did Sweetwater send you the robos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 13, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 13, 2017 Tuners are all properly installed and snug. Yes I have the robos... If the tuners weren't snug wouldn't that tend to make a string go flat rather than sharp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 13, 2017 Members Share Posted December 13, 2017 I have no experience with the titanium nut but I'm kind of interested in the outcome of this. In theory the combination of the zero fret plus nut should be a good thing assuming its height is properly set. Forumite Etienne Rambert recently had one installed in his Lester (with G-force) - I know he is impressed by it. His tech should be able to talk about how to set it up./ As far as your question about replacing it with a convention nut, my humble suggestion is always to hand make a nut rather than trying to find one to fit. That way you can get the nut to fit the neck perfectly and both the spacing and heights of the strings will be perfect. However, I thought thats what the Ti nut was supposed to do. edit to add - it is my understanding that the ti nut has one part fixed to the guitar and the zero fret which can be adjusted up and down (one add says its simple to play slide on your guitar). That sounds kind of wonky to me, but have you measured the string clearance at the first fret and measured the back fret clearance? For the strings to go sharp that means the nut would be moving UP - is that possible? And another post script - it has been my experience and I can't explain this, that new strings frequently will go sharp when they set a while. Logic says that once they are brought to tune they should stretch and go flat (nylon strings are notorious for this). However often when I pick up a guitar that has been sitting (in its case with a humidifier) it will be a few cents sharp - I've always put this down to humidity shifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 13, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 13, 2017 I agree - the concept of the zero fret nut with the adjustability is a great idea. So far, though based on what I'm seeing I'm wondering if the top part just doesn't sit firmly enough in the bottom part. You are correct that there is a part attached to the guitar in the nut slot, and then the top part rests in that channel, and is adjustable via a set screw at each end of the top part, with one screw in the middle to hold it in place (the 2015 version did NOT have the middle screw). My suspicion is that the low E side of the nut is indeed moving UP when the strings on the high E side are tightened/tuned up to pitch. I would have hoped the center screw being tighted down would prevent that from happening, but something has to be moving to cause those strings to go from being in-tune to going sharp. And you'd think that most anything that would move on the guitar would cause strings to go flat rather than sharp, unless the nut is moving up or somehow pulling on those strings... perplexing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted December 13, 2017 Members Share Posted December 13, 2017 Tuners are all properly installed and snug. Yes I have the robos... If the tuners weren't snug wouldn't that tend to make a string go flat rather than sharp? Want to sell them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 13, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 13, 2017 If I end up keeping the guitar I'll sell them - if you can wait a week, I should know if I'm keeping it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted December 13, 2017 Members Share Posted December 13, 2017 PM me when you decide. I am looking for a set of Les Paul GForce. Tks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 14, 2017 Members Share Posted December 14, 2017 Try a little Loctite on the threads. I'll ask again, have you measured fret clearance to see if its changing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 15, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 15, 2017 Freeman - I haven't measured with a feeler gauge yet. Just eyeballing it it's hard to tell if the string height has raised, but I will do that this weekend. Just haven't had time to do that yet... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 15, 2017 Members Share Posted December 15, 2017 I'm still struggling with how the nut could move up which would be required to sharpen the pitch - you would think break angle and the adjustment screw would not let it move, but again, I haven't actually seen or worked with one of these which is why I'm interested in your experience. You haven't stated how much the strings go sharp - a few cents? Five cents? More? Do they all go sharp at the same time? You are absolutely sure that the bridge end is OK - studs are tight, you've got good break angle over the saddles, all that stuff. I'm going to add a couple of comments that I've said before on other LP threads. I've been particularly unimpressed with the QC coming out of Gibson lately on setups on new guitars. I don't care if they've been Plek'd or whether the quality sheet in the case has been dutifully checked off - I've had two very expensive Les Pauls lately that were simply unacceptable. Both of these guitars had manual tuners and standard synthetic nuts. I also know that ER who loves his GForce did have the nut replaced by the factory (brass with ti I think). So I would be very inclined to do the complete measurement thing - all of the setup parameters including nut slots and clearances. Btw - I do remember reading somewhere that Gibson can Plek the zero fret part of the Ti nut, which seems to defeat the purpose of its adjustability but if it is true then the nut should be perfectly on the fretboard plane. Your feeler gauges will tell you that too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted December 16, 2017 Members Share Posted December 16, 2017 Are you sure the issue isn't being caused by the neck tension? Maybe the nut is properly secured and its just the relief that needs to be adjusted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 19, 2017 The relief looked pretty good when I received the guitar. I tightened it just a smidge to reduce the relief a tiny bit. The truss rod seemed nicely installed - no looseness or sloppiness. The tuning issue occurred though, both before and after the truss rod adjustment, so I feel like that wasn't the culprit. And if it was, it would seem if anything strings would go flatter, not sharper as others are tuned up. Could be wrong, but that's my guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted December 19, 2017 Members Share Posted December 19, 2017 Any progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 19, 2017 Not yet - have been out of town for the last 4 days... hope to get to try it out in the next couple of days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 19, 2017 Members Share Posted December 19, 2017 Yes, as you bring one string up to pitch it pulls more relief into the neck, reducing the tension on other strings and making them go flat. Relief is not the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 27, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 27, 2017 here's the latest update... I decided to strip everything down and put it back together again, and changed from 9-46 to 10-46 strings. Once I had the strings off and was checking everything the main observations were that the nut seems to be pretty solidly in place now. What isn't very solid is the bridge - without any strings holding it in place it was very loose and wobbly. When I lifted the bridge itself off the posts, the posts themselves are loose and wobbly in the holes they screw into. It's been years since I've had a LP (this is my 4th) but I don't remember the bridge and posts being that loose on my previous LPs. Is that normal? Anyway, after checking everything and then putting new strings on, I did a complete setup. The setup from Sweetwater was actually very disappointing. The tailpiece was all jacked up on the low E side out of alignment with the bridge - not sure why they would have done it that way. And the action was way more than twice as high on the low E side as the high E side - again, pretty surprising. I certainly wouldn't expect anyone else's setup to be an exact match to my preferences out of the box, but man, it was like it just came off the wall at Guitar Center! But, after restringing and setting it up (nut adjustment and bridge adjustments for action, proper relief setting with truss rod, and intonation adjustments) it's now set up quite nicely. And I will say, the neck on this guitar is superb - no dead or buzzy spots anywhere at all. As for the previous problem of tuning being affected on some strings when tuning the other strings, that seems to no longer be happening. I think the cause was the center screw in the nut not being firmly tightened down. The only nagging thing right now is how loose the bridge and bridge posts are, and whether that's going to cause a lack of stability. The little bit I've been able to play it so far, it hasn't seemed too bad, but I really haven't gotten to play it too much since I set it up. Time will tell I suppose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted December 27, 2017 Members Share Posted December 27, 2017 here's the latest update... I decided to strip everything down and put it back together again, and changed from 9-46 to 10-46 strings. Once I had the strings off and was checking everything the main observations were that the nut seems to be pretty solidly in place now. What isn't very solid is the bridge - without any strings holding it in place it was very loose and wobbly. When I lifted the bridge itself off the posts, the posts themselves are loose and wobbly in the holes they screw into. It's been years since I've had a LP (this is my 4th) but I don't remember the bridge and posts being that loose on my previous LPs. Is that normal? Anyway, after checking everything and then putting new strings on, I did a complete setup. The setup from Sweetwater was actually very disappointing. The tailpiece was all jacked up on the low E side out of alignment with the bridge - not sure why they would have done it that way. And the action was way more than twice as high on the low E side as the high E side - again, pretty surprising. I certainly wouldn't expect anyone else's setup to be an exact match to my preferences out of the box, but man, it was like it just came off the wall at Guitar Center! But, after restringing and setting it up (nut adjustment and bridge adjustments for action, proper relief setting with truss rod, and intonation adjustments) it's now set up quite nicely. And I will say, the neck on this guitar is superb - no dead or buzzy spots anywhere at all. As for the previous problem of tuning being affected on some strings when tuning the other strings, that seems to no longer be happening. I think the cause was the center screw in the nut not being firmly tightened down. The only nagging thing right now is how loose the bridge and bridge posts are, and whether that's going to cause a lack of stability. The little bit I've been able to play it so far, it hasn't seemed too bad, but I really haven't gotten to play it too much since I set it up. Time will tell I suppose! I agree about Sweetwater’s set-up being disappointing. I just bought a Jazzmaster from SW. I paid the $45 for a set-up. I think my local guy does a better job. My 2 LP’s play like a dream. I know nothing about guitar physics. But I can’t help but think a Guitar that was PLEK’d for robos, might have problems w/regular tuners. Maybe I am way off-base. Here is what my titanium nut nut looks like [ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\tZFAN_600.jpg Views:\t1 Size:\t96.5 KB ID:\t32128575","data-align":"right","data-attachmentid":"32128575","data-size":"full","title":"ZFAN_600.jpg"}[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members andyville99 Posted December 27, 2017 Author Members Share Posted December 27, 2017 Etienne - I tried to PM you an hour ago about selling my Gforce tuners but it said you aren't accepting PMs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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