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Sony is installing 6 NEW lathes in Japan, has hired ex-retired vinyl mes/cutters, is prepping to mainstream its catalog 11 months from now- AND...owns ALL the MCI tape technology..AND.....

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bucksstudent View Post

    Not to mention, any album recorded digitally rather than on analog tape isn't going to sound good on vinyl anyway.
    Why not?


    **********

    "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

    - George Carlin

    "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

    - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

    "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

    - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

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    • #17
      Originally posted by bookumdano4 View Post
      There's no market? I don't need no stinkin' market. Give me 1200 brand new 2" machines at $75 grand retail each... and I'll FIND a way to sell them
      Why should I buy a new A827 when I can get a used one in terrific shape for a fraction of the price?

      For years now, every single time I go in to work in Hollywood, the hallways are lined with old Studer and Ampex tape machines that are sitting by idly while PT rigs are being used in the (relatively few) studios that are actually being utilized at any given moment.

      I'd be like that guy from 1973 who had his own airplane and flew around the country, personally setting up studio equipment sales to individuals, totally working everywhere but IN major centers with major studios. I think he sold ten bazillion MCI setups. It would give me an excuse to eventually buy a jet.

      In fact, if I can figure out who the hell built the new Sony and Abbey Road lathes, I'd hit on them too.
      Are you referring to Jeep Harned? Jeep didn't have to work very hard to sell the early MCI's - they were the only 24 track machines around at first, and in really high demand.
      **********

      "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

      - George Carlin

      "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

      - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

      "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

      - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

        Why should I buy a new A827 when I can get a used one in terrific shape for a fraction of the price?

        For years now, every single time I go in to work in Hollywood, the hallways are lined with old Studer and Ampex tape machines that are sitting by idly while PT rigs are being used in the (relatively few) studios that are actually being utilized at any given moment.



        Are you referring to Jeep Harned? Jeep didn't have to work very hard to sell the early MCI's - they were the only 24 track machines around at first, and in really high demand.
        No, Jeep sold direct to the guy with the plane and for three years, he outsold all the other MCI dealers.... from his house and flying to clients. Although, there weren't that many MCI dealers at that blip of time.

        As to why John XrayDelta in Laguna won't buy an a827 or pieces of an a827 on ebay? Because John doesn't do that. He wouldn't even want to do that. He wouldn't even feel confident with doing that as he has no experience. And you know what....John basically doesn't buy anything on ebay and never has. He's not even a real good bargain hunter when it comes to groceries. And he doesn't care. There are some things he considers trivial.

        He has more money than he or his kids will ever spend. He's had it with his 19 years of doing loops on his portable gizmos, he's enthralled and starry eyed about what he's been taught (by people like me) as to the PROCESS of what one can do with tape...and...He wants one NEW. Like when he bought his $80,000 car. And $8mil house. He wants to be immersed in the process. He is 36 years old, rich and secure, loves music, has just had two months of learning how many old records were created...step by step....he is in starryville over a new API console he just saw.... and he wants in NOW.

        And guess what? There are by my count, at least 310,000 John XrayDeltas around the country. And that's a low guess on my initial look-sees into what's what here. They weren't going to buy a blowout new a827 in 2002 because, face it... John(s) were only 21 years old and just exiting college for life in Law, silicon valley, Hollywood, Dental land, doctor land, realestate entrepreneur-inventor land, and chainstore ownership. And at the time, being content with their Nintendos and iPods.

        These people are now approaching almost middle-age territory and don't go out looking for compromise when their left-right brains want something so bad, they can taste it.

        They want new. And they want training. And they want it now.... they just don't quite know how/what to ask for yet. This is the time to grab those people imo. Like I say, I'm just trying to figure out some logistics as I see the wave coming. It can't be stopped. imo

        These are not going into studios. The faster one blanks out the image of "commercial studio", the clearer this becomes. And in fact, you then have the 1973 image of who the guy with the plane was selling all the MCI stuff to. The vast majority of those $100,000 sales (you could get a turnkey Mci 24-2-console for that) never opened a door to the public in any way/shape/form.
        Last edited by bookumdano4; 07-03-2017, 03:37 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by MikeRivers View Post

          Introduce me. I'll be happy to do their recorder maintenance for a $150,000 per year retainer. 2% annually for maintenance is a bargain.
          I don't think you'll get the gig. There are four major service centers currently around the US that will fix most anything with turning reels. With the possibility of machine X returning to production (along with parts accessible to those 4 service centers), they'll be REALLY happy. For parts especially. Historically, it's not a common need to truck in a 380 pound 2" machine to a service center.

          And the even-happier guys will be local guys who will love being the support contact point for the locally placed "new" machines. They won't be asking for $150 grand.... nor will their eager intern helpers. There are a lot of cool ways to structure support for Bill's 24-trk machine over in Dallas or Betty's two machines in Big Bear.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

            Why not?

            I own new LPs from artists who have never even used tape. The mastering sounds atrocious on the LP versions versus the CDs, and the LPs cost way more.

            The Foo Fighters recorded Echoes Silence Patience and Grace on tape, but transferred it to Pro Tools. I have no idea why, because the vinyl version is awful.

            Also, a lot of these reissues are not the original album masterings but rather the remastered versions, and they also sound bad on vinyl.

            You also have to consider, most of the vinyl pressed in the past few years was done on old machinery. That's one of the reasons why Sony investing in new machines and hiring old employees is a big deal, because the new vinyl has been really hit or miss.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by MikeRivers View Post





              There are a few different potential markets, and each makes sense in itself (well, to the "warm tape sound" fans anyway). Someone who just wants to lo-fi a track can be just as happy with the result using Grandpa's TEAC rescued from the attic before the estate sale.


              Then there are those who absolutely need a DAW for its production power, but want to mix to analog. For them, a 1/2" 2-track mixdown deck makes sense. The caveat here is that a relatively small proportion of mastering houses have a suitable playback deck.

              The availability of a multitrack analog tape deck might bring the "record the drums on tape" production back into favor, but I think that there are just a small handful of aritsts and producers who will be willing to put up with doing a full projects on tape.


              There will always be places where they'll want to edit within a track, and even where there were still people who knew how to do it, "window edits" were always risky. You have to be a certain kind of nutty in order to be willing to say "Oh, OK, let's just do another take."



              I think that there are enough new disk cutters for those who want them. These aren't individuals who want to have vinyl records pressed. Most of them are one-offs, club DJs making custom dance music disks to take to the club that night, or novelties. There's a guy in the LA area who does a good amount of business setting up at conventions and cutting disks at an evening's dinner/entertainment event. Drive home from the airport in your Tesla with a vinyl disk of your karaoke performance. These guys are legimate and conscientious, and they've been exhibiting at the NAMM show for the past couple of years, so they must be getting some business from the music industry: http://www.vinylrecorder.com/index-e.html


              A new Studer A827 won't be going to a guy experimenting on Grandpas attic portastudio. But maybe check back with that guy when he is a 46 year old neurosurgeon with an ache to go further based on what he heard on that portastudio that day years back.

              For a daw user who happens to want to mix down to a 2-trk machine rather than his daw, he's not in the equation at the moment. Let him get a 2trk on ebay. There's too much blurr (at the moment) for there to be an onslaught of 2-trk tape machines. That's what a lot of people blow too much time trying to figure out how to make work profitwise...... it's not time for a new 2trk. It's... not...time...for...a...2track. A divide must be created. No new 2-track machines!!!! Go to ebay or Mara if you want one. That's the bookumdano scenario rule at the moment. A new 2trk will be frosting.....later.

              As far as mastering houses not having a 2track for the daw guy who owns an ebay (etc) 2 track and wants to proceed to ...maybe...vinyl. Well... the mastering house doesn't have a 2trk? BS. Grundman does have 2track machines. As do others who also have cutting lathes. If a mastering house does not own a 2track, that's a great indication that the ME or place is perhaps not experienced enough to consider using if you are REALLY following your desire in the form of a quarter-inch final mix.

              I disagree with the dj topic and people not getting mass records pressed. Every single plant I know of in LA and OC are hopelessly backed up and are routinely pressing thousands of copies for each client... not just a few for dj use. And massive independent stuff. Non major lable, non signed. Now, some of that quantity stuff is due to pricing being lower in the thousands but still..... the plants are backed up, even with (finally) a few new ones coming into existence. It's almost untenable. Hence, I stay interested in where the new cutters and duplicators are actually coming from.

              As to the vinylrecorder....not good imo. Doesn't sound good either. And it would burn up if you tried to use it for any decent run size.
              Last edited by bookumdano4; 07-03-2017, 04:25 PM.

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              • #22
                To continue my post from above thanks to my phone interrupting me...

                Vinyl is a dated technology. It's a lot like the tube amp. I'm currently recording my music with a Digitech RP 150 guitar processor that's over a decade old, and I own a Vox and Marshall. The Digitech sounds better than micing the tube amps, and it's a decade out of date. I love my tube amps, and I would totally use them for gigging if I were in a band, but they're not the best sounding product or technology available. The CD is not only capable of lossless music, but it's also unmatched in the digital market in terms of sound quality. I'm not knocking MP3s, but they still can't match CDs. FLAC files are not totally lossless either. Of course, Spotify offers adequate quality without the need of a physical format all together, and I signed up back in March. Does it sound better than the vinyl I own? Hell yes. Better than my CDs? For the most part, not really. Spotify also doesn't have all the mastered versions of various albums.

                Vinyl is selling, as I said before, not because of the sound quality. It's nostalgia, aesthetic, and a fad. I love my vinyl, but I don't own an audiophile quality turntable or sound system. Even if I invested thousands into one, it wouldn't surpass a well mastered CD ripped losslessly on my laptop with my Sony headphones. In fact, the tube amp, such as the Macintosh, that audiophiles swear by literally distorts the sound much like a guitar amp, which they refer to as "warmth."

                Yet, whenever I played the Byrds, John Mellencamp, or similar produced artist, they sound like nails on a chalkboard compared to their digitally mastered counterparts.

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                • #23
                  Your dream reminds me of a promotion that NAMM created maybe 10 years ago that they called "Weekend Warriors." The picture showed four or five baby-boomer age professionals in their professional garb - a lawyer, a surgeon, a CEO, a professor - holding musical instruments. The caption was something like "This band's combined annual income is $2,500,000. You could be selling them their instruments." That promotion fell flat. I thought it was pretty clever. But one difference between selling guitars to successful professionals close to retirement age is that in five years, they won't have any trouble selling their guitars when they get bored with the band, or they can put them in the closet and give them to their grandkids.

                  As for mastering from tape, sure, you can find anything you want. My point was that there must be 25,000 people who do mastering, a good number of them pretty well known and easy to find, who do very good work. And about five of those have a high quality, well maintained analog tape deck. Your 310,000 stupid rich home studio owners aren't all going to be able to get Bernie to do their mastering. But they could send their tapes (even their pre-mixdown multitrack tapes) to Sonicraft and have them transferred to digital as transparently as possible and then get them mixed and mastered by people who know what they're doing.

                  Dano, I admire your enthusiasm, but I think your numbers are way off.
                  --
                  "Today's production equipment is IT-based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson, Resolution Magazine, October 2006
                  Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MikeRivers View Post

                    Your 310,000 stupid rich home studio owners....

                    Dano, I admire your enthusiasm, but I think your numbers are way off.
                    The percentage of jumpers in an arbitrary 310,000 pool? I can only go by my intuition and I'm still working that out in my head. I'm absolutely convinced of some things, such as this project must be kept far and away out of normal retail channels. As in no one sees it coming until it's already in the somewhat secret pipeline. And getting in once some word is out... is hard. In a way, this totally defies marketing 101.

                    And I directly, fully, completely, to-the-microscope-mode,take this approach from what was done with 90-16 in 1975. Yes, I'm stealing that entire approach because no one knows/knew/remembers how that marketing worked (apparently except for me).... and it was perfect.... for an entire 2 years. Under the radar. Demand that couldn't be filled. Momentum. And no advertising (well eventually as eol came around). And no dealers (for a long long time). And my gawd, the "proof" you had to come up with as to your ability to own one (more stringent than adopting a cat for sure). All for a circa 1975 measley $16,000 machine ($74,000 in today's dollars).

                    If I can get, say, an a827 happening now in that sort of dark area mode, the stakes get even more interesting. Especially when word gets out among the types of people qualified to buy in. It won't be about resale. It'll be about furthering the creative process in a way most of the population can't afford. It feeds the creative desire..... it feeds the ego..... it feeds the need to go somewhere different.... and it's new, off the factory floor.

                    Thanks for sensing the place I'm coming from. Sometimes, my enthusiasm is enough to get substantial momentum happening in some areas. And the gut feel for the details and a blueprint for how to make it work. Not to sound egocentric (which I am), but, it's true.

                    It feels like it's time. Even if I'm off on the schedule by a bit, this isn't not going to happen. For sure.

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