lyrics

i was wondering what you guys thought about lyrics in songs and how important it is to really understand what a singer is talking about.

the singer in my band is a great singer and, in my opinion, writes some great lyrics. they're not obvious lyrics, but more metaphoric and quite dark and emotional. sometimes i don't know exactly what he's referring to cos of some of the words he uses, but you know he's writing about something dark and close to him. in amongst his lyrics, you'll find some amazing lines which stand out and really hit you. a friend has even said he wants one of his lines tattoed on him as he thinks its one of the best lyrics he's heard!

however, our manager has a massive problem with the lyrics. he says they're total nonsense most of the time, and our singer is trying to be too clever with his words. he says you can't understand what he's talking about and sometimes uses words that don't even make sense and thinks he needs to be more universal and accessible with his writing.

i disagree, as i think this is what makes him unique, and if he started writing more 'universal' lyrics that cater for every single person on the street, then we'd loose our identity and a massive aspect of our songwriting.

i can think of loads of bans who's lyrics weren't the most obvious, but still had amazing songs. a perfect example is nirvana. i never knew what the hell he was going on about but the lines just sounded good together and came in the form of great melodies.

what do you guys think about lyrics. do you really listen to what someone is saying or just go on a vibe. i know it's different for each style of music. but we're not trying to change the world and write the next anti-war song or anything. our guys lyrics are personal and portray situations or struggles in his own life that some people may connect to.

any thoughts on this?

thanks

I go off of vibe, and the feel I get from the music and singing combination, but then again I've never been very good with words. It probably depends mainly on your background.

:thu:your absolutely right, there are plenty of examples of songwriters with strange lyrics that don't make sense.

my instant thought was, dont listen to the manager. If you/the band change your music too fit what he wants, then its not your music. its his. IMO

You've already got a manager. That's impressive.

You have a "great" lead singer. That's impressive too.

Without hearing the words & music, I can't say who's right.

Maybe all of you are right.

Not everyone has a universal touch with lyrics like Irving Berlin had.

Your situation makes me think of the Doors & Morrison.

He was pretty incomprehensible at times.

Good luck. Sounds interesting. Maybe your manager should

suggest some word changes. Maybe your singer should be open

to suggestions.

aww.....

good point.

I can't stand morrisons lyrics.

First of all.. tell your manager to {censored} off. He came to you guys because he liked what you did. If he came with the intentions of molding you into a more marketable clone of the crap music we have going on today, then you guys need a new manager imo.

People said the same thing about Jim Morrison.. and maybe they were right in some sense.. some of his lyrics did seem weird just for the sake of being weird.. but they meant something to him and he put them out there with conviction and people latched onto him and the doors as a result.

In my opinion, great writers leave a bigger thumb print on the world than great singers or guitarists.. There are college courses that aim to dissect the lyrics of Bob Dylan and Woodie Guthrie.. The problem with music today is that lyrical importance has been buried by people on the marketing side of things.. to be fair, the fact that people take their music like they take their fast these days is also responsible. People don't sit around and listen to an entire album as entertainment anymore. Music has been pushed to back.. it's now just a soundtrack to most peoples lives...

Maybe some really powerful lyrics from some great writers that ask the listener to search their souls and really think about whats being said is just what we need to bring it all back.

You know I used to never care if I could understand a word the singer said or if the lyrics were nonsense, but more and more it really matters to me. In one band I used to play in, my parents would always complain to me that they couldn't understand what the singer was singing. Granted they're coming from a totally different place and time and are probably not in the audience you want to reach.

I'm not going to say that your manager is right, but he may have a point. If you want to reach the most people, having relate-able, understandable lyrics is one facet that can help gain fans. If your manager is hearing it then so might others. Chances are that your singer is not a poet and may just be writing whatever comes to mind. I'm surprised the manager is being so blunt.

I'm a lyrics-parsing nerd. My guess is that your manager is half right. MOST bands with singers who write "metaphoric and quite dark and emotional" stuff that is obscure and about "something dark and close to" the singer are dabbling in bull{censored}. If your singer is a top-tier bull{censored}ter (Morrison, some early Pixies stuff, Nirvana, Dylan sometimes) you don't have a problem. However, most people AREN'T top-tier bull{censored} professionals. Your lyrics are likely mush. On the plus side, most people don't care too much.

I'm guessing you manager would prefer that you write more "accessible" stuff with "appeal." This isn't bad advice, except you might not be the sort of folks who can do it (I for one have no idea what people like or why they like it). Usually people conflate "accessible" with "dumbed down." I'd be wary of treating your audience like they're stupid and need everything explained.

Then again a lot of popular-type songs that I heard on the radio have HORRID lyrics, so that says something about accessibility.

Meh.. don't trust your manager to judge your lyrics... bring them here and lay them on the forum.. people that have nothing to gain or lose by offering their opinions..

How many great artists would we have lost if they stopped doing what they did because of what a marketer told them..

Imagine if Van Gogh had just painted dead on portraits of beautiful people.. Imagine if Jackson Polluck (who was full of {censored} when describing the meaning behind his art..lol) had stuck with doing paintings with clear and clean lines instead of the explosion of colors he used. Maybe he would have made more sense... but we wouldnt know his name..

Following the pack puts you in competition with the pack.. Going the other way without fear of the consequences is the best way to stand out in the long run imo.

My advice.. just do what you do. If people dig it, great. If they don't, then that will become apparent from your crowd response.

Without hear your stuff and reading along, we'll never know.

I think lyrics are really super important. But that doesn't mean I have to actually understand them. Sometimes the mystique of not knowing what somebody is saying is more important than any literal meaning they may have intended.

Personally, I can't write vague lyrics. Mine have to tell a store or have a message and be understood very simply. I do admire those who don't feel constrained by their own internal pressure to be understood, tho.

Unless your manager is getting you the best gigs in town, tons of money, and a multimillion dollar recording contract, I'd tell him to shut up.

thanks for takin the time to respond.

to give you an idea of the kind of stuff our singer writes, here's the lyrics to our newest song:

verse

--------

Born on a common vitriol

Like water, it's running through my hands

The sober lights will judge us like chaos in reverse

Sunlight is tearin me apart

The corners are everywhere i look

The sky is rudimentary like violence from above

chorus

---------

They don't want to

But they have to

All pretending

To be statues

If you tremble

You will splinter

Like a statue

In the winter

verse 2

----------

Sinking (like) a stone cast to a well

it's harder to find the words to tell

A shadow of recollection hangs heavy on my mind

I'm rushing to take this acid test

To save the morning hour

To save the morning hour

chorus 2

If you want to be a lyrics-focused group, listen to your manager. If you're more the Radiohead-type focus on the sounds band, these lyrics are serviceable.

Here's the deal for me...

He writes an interesting phrase. But by not connecting the logic, phrase to phrase, he takes the listener for a ride then ditches them. So I think... he needs to do what he's doing, purge, get it out, then rewrite to say something without losing the feel and flavor of the way he's saying it.

As best I can tell, he's snowing me. I like it, but then I don't when I get mislead. Of course, maybe I'm just missing some of it, but my gut says he's just using haphazard non sequitors.

Why not be great and tighten up the message?

Lyrics are important to me. But so is the vibe/feel/gut sense of things. And that, as you note, is what helped Nirvana get their music over. One could seldom be sure precisely what Cobain was saying but you always got the impression that it really meant something to him -- in part because he really delivered the lyrics.

That said, there are bands that really, really should never, ever print the lyrics to their songs.

I have some old friends who made often gorgeous dream pop in a sort of post-Cocteau Twins gauzy fog of echo, 'verb and 6/8 time. It was pretty intoxicating and it sounded great often times.

But they had the wacky idea that they should print their lyrics.

And those lyrics were like a nasty explosion at the thesaurus factory. The were... let's say, supremely goofy. Mind you, you were seldom confronted by that on stage... the band might as well have been singing glossolallic lyrics a la the Cocteaus. But they should have left well enough alone and kept the air of mystery around those polysyllabic pastiches...

I have two basic modes of listening... one is oriented to straightforward lyrics -- and that's pretty straightforward itself -- and the other is a more slo-mo, osmotic absorption of the emotional sense of things, feeling out the emotion and tone of the music and the vocal performance and letting the lyrics come to me on their own, often finding a phrase or image or two at a time floating up to me.

When I was a winsome teenager, the first thing I did was reach for the lyric sheet if there was one. Nowadays, I let the words come to me and -- if I'm intriqued, then I'll go find the lyrics... or what passes for them.

I have to agree with tspit74. Sometimes unique and vague lyrics allow the listener to create a bit of their own story about the song. This makes it a personal experience for them, and in opinion a longer lasting impression.

As others have said, do what feels good to you, not what others want you to do, unless of course the two can find some useful common ground (or the pay is REALLY good)

If lyrics can paint a picture in your mind that can be rememberd, and they speak truth and can have multiple meanings, the pictures will be rememberd long, long after the words are forgotten. They dont have to have 1001 different pictures, one central theme can surfice. When they get to higher levels and can produce an intirely magical story they are often considerd to be great.

Disconnected lines can work well too. John lennon and Steely Dan come to mind. Some of their verses are full of disconnected snapshots. The key item that made them succesful were the choruses and bridges that are repeated.

I personally like writing lyrics that will take people on a jorney from point a to point b. While listening to only lyrics the feeling of the music will affect emotions much like a good movie sound track background music inforces the emotions of the actor. When listening to only the music, I like being able to hear the vocals as another instrument and the lyrics can slip by without understanding a word. As far as the content of the lyrics, it can vary alot. I can say this. I have a lyric collection where I downloaded the top 100 hits every month of every year from 1940 to the present. You'd be surprised how many idiotic, nonsensical and juvenile lyrics wound up being hits. Just goes to show you is usually how the words are sung, who is singing them, how their delivery is along with a solid backing of music, and not what is said that is going to make them popular.

Obviously theres alot more to it than this but its just my two cents.

Looking at the lyrics in question, I would keep an open ear to the manager.

I think that if lyrics don't make sense, they should make sense to the subconscious. Now I am not in a subconscious state right now, but I know that the subconscious is into simple, primal language.

I think that the chorus makes some sense to my mind and can create mental pictures beyond it's meaning.

I don't think this is true with a lot of the verse. I think that it doesn't only not connect to the conscious mind but also might be nonsensical to the subconscious miind.

It would be interesting to hear the music.

Look, I would bet that your lyricist cannot go to the beat of a different drummer. It might be impossible to change his lyrical style. Even if he's not capable, he might not want to. He might be convinced that he is a genius. Maybe he is a genius, and the problem is that the rest of the world is not.

Beakybird

I think that was the downfall of R.E.M. One of my favorite bands, and on the first album you could barely understand a word. Micheal Stipe even said about "Shaking Through" that he couldn't remember the exact words, but could approximate the sound. Then on their later stuff, you could actually make out what he was saying, and it turned out to be not that interesting after all.

Lyrics, to me, don't have to make perfect sense or be perfect prose. Take Bob Marley's "Oh, pirates, yes, they rob I. Sold I to the merchant ship." That's not proper grammar, and for years I wanted to meet these merchant sheep.

Other lines really bug me. McCartney's "this ever-changing world in which we live in" gets to me every time, and totally takes away from my enjoyment of an otherwise great song.

Same with the recent hit "Genie in a Bottle." Genies don't live in bottles, they live in lamps!

Well said...

I think that there is a big difference between writing incoherent "pretty words" and writing metaphorically to get to a deeper understanding of things. A good line written on 3 different levels is timeless. Unfortunately so is quite a bit of trite crap. I like what your lyricist wrote. I think the line, "The sober lights will judge us like chaos in reverse" is a great line.

But the best of lyrics don't mean a thing if they're served on a plate of unappealing music.

I meant to say Fast Food.. not just fast:D.. I type slowly and get ahead of myself as a result.

To the OP, I think your lead singer has some talent.. He seems to suffer from my same issue though.. I write great lines, but have yet to master the art of stringing them together.. often, I will simply build a bunch of fluff around a couple good lines.. sadly.. I'm working on it though... hopefully he does as well

That post was a great critique of the lyrics in question.

I like a song that delivers a lyrical message that weaves its way through the supporting music. That said, I want to be led to the lyrics by the music and I like it when I have to concentrate to get them rather than have them jump out at me.

Of course in more sparsely arranged material it's a different story.

If you make the commitment to have a Manager you should be giving some weight to his opinion.

In a group dynamic like this one every member needs to get behind the lyrics and have the opportunity to voice their opinions.......you may even need to listen to your bass player.

I like writing/listening to somewhat ambiguous lyrics.. I don't want people thinking about what the words mean to me, I want them connecting their own emotions and ideas to them. But I don't know how marketable that is. Frankly, it's never bothered me in the least.

some really interesting advice and comments you guys have given.

we've just finished recording the song in our rehearsal room so i thought i'd let you guys hear it and see what you think about the delivery of the lyrics and the song in general.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=18557

The band sounds excellent, the melody and music are very good. Great singer.

A couple of the words seem forced - too complicated for the song (i.e. the word "rudimentary"). I think after listening I can see perhaps the manager wants to hear something with more of an identifiable "hook". For me it would just mean repeating "Statues in the Winter" a bunch more times.

Boy do you ever sound like U2...