I Finally Decided To Take Matters Into My Own Hands

After a good 13 years of over the top compressed CDs, I have decided to stop complaining and move on. This month I am celebrating my birthday and I have decided that I would treat myself to a record player and start collecting records.

As a kid, my folks had record players and I even own one. In my first 2 years of recording, I was asked to produce an entire record for a friend who repaid me with a brand new record player and around 30 records of jazz and classical music.

Me, in one of my cleaning tirades decided to give them all away several years with the record player... I`m not regretting giving any of it away because I know the person is enjoying the player and albums but I want to start my collection again out of pure frustration over the sound of CDs.

Now, believe it or not, I never purchased a record players before, remember, my folks had one and a friend gave me a new one so I never knew what to look for so I turn to you my HC friends for your input. What features should I be looking for?

Thanks and I look forward to hearing music sound good again.

doesn't matter, but buy a turntable with a built in compressor

Doubt I am ever getting used to this.

EB, what kind of amp/preamp are you going to connect it to? Is this going to be a super hi-fi deal. If so, obviously you need to look at audiophile type stuff.

I was going to say that if you are using decent to good amplification, perhaps you could look at the USB turntable offerings out there today. I have a Numark TT USB. It cost under $100.

http://www.numark.com/product/ttusb

It is pretty decent. I have been meaning to buy a really nice cartridge/stylus or even a tone arm if you can get such a thing as a replacement. I feel a much better stylus will make a difference.

You could go up and get a Stanton at around $300

http://www.stantondj.com/stanton-turntables/t55usb.html

There are so many and some offer retro styling, some with built in amps for iPods as well.

Here is a site that compares. Some nice looking Audio Technica's for not too expensive......scroll down for images.

http://www.knowzy.com/computers/audio/digitize_your_lps/usb_record_player_turntable_comparison.htm

Best of luck with it.

Might be an idea to check into whether to go belt drive or direct drive, I think the go years ago was to buy a belt drive if going for a cheaper one, to minimise vibration noise from the motor.

Belt drive is preferable at the low end and at the high end, but once you get into the $250 range, the "cogging" of a direct drive motor is pretty minimal. I saw a few really nice turntables at CES for $10,000 on up but you don't need to spend that much. Of course if you just want a "record player" that's a different story.

The Needle Doctor offers a lot of choices. Don't be tempted by the $50 ion USB turntables unless you just want something to spin records. You can do better than that.

Yesterday on the radio I heard Roll The Bones by Rush. Great song.

But it nearly sounded like white noise. The track itself is ridiculously brickwalled, and it was being played on a local station that is notorious for overcompression.

Its good to have a built in strobe and variable speed.

Different record thicknesses will vary the load on the drive system and run

slower with more weight. hjaving the strobe lets you tweak the speed.

It also helps tune the pitch of the recording. Many records have no standard

speed and the pitch of a recording can be off quite a bit. It helps if you ever want to play

along to the recording. You tune the record vs tuning your instrument.

besides the drive system, the cartridge is the biggest factor.

I knew many audiophyles growing up. The one guy I knew had no EQ system

for his setup. If he wanted to adjust the tone he would either tweak the crossover for the speakers

or he would change the cartridge. Different cartridges are like different mics. They all have different

tonal flavors, presences and gains. Some are warmer and some are brighter.

hjaving interchangable cartridges is a good option.

I still have my record collection that dates back to the 60's. I also inherited allot of albums from

my dads collection. Its neat to go back through all those songs you learned to play over the years.

You may hear the hits on the radio but its all the other songs on the albums that makes the band great.

Even when I played in bands full time I'd often choose the lesser known tracks to play live.

I can say records do suffer from noise and scratches. You quickly memorize them all and how thay get scratched is often a mystery.

you do need to keep albums clean to play well. That part along with turntable maintainence is something I dont miss because its a pain in the ass.

It is funny though, because i had been planning to pull out my original set of Spike Jones 45's. I have about 25 of them that my folks had from

before I was born. Spike was the Frank Zappa of his era and the songs are the extreme of satire. many wouldnt make sence to this generation

of course, but the timing of a live band like that without the aid of multitracking is astounding. You can tell they were all live radio performers

who performed background music for all the comedy shows. Guess you could consider them a tonight show band on steroids.

I did transfer the recording to tape once. I didnt have the setup I do now to really fix all the pops and scratches the recordings have collected

over a good 60 years. I'll likely digitize them and make CD's for all the family members and let them reminiss hearing the Knock Knock song and

Beatle Bomb. Most can easily visualized as slapstick cartoon tracks. They really have no talent today that can come close to pulling that stuff

off live, Monty Python may have been the closest by todays standards but thats mostly oration.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I`m not looking to spend anymore than $250. Any brands I should heavily consider? I was considering Stanton and Audio Technica.

Turntable brands:

Thorens (TD models, second hand about $100)

Lenco (second hand, about $100), plays from 16 RPM to 78 RPM

ION PROFLASH (with CD recorder built in, about $140)

I guess you own a hi-fi amp.

Either one of those two in the $250 range should be decent for listening to records occasionally. One of the variable is straight tone arm vs curved. I guess straight is better for DJ scratching stuff. Maybe the Audio Technica or a Technics would be fine. You don't need a DJ laden TT really. I recall my dad's audiophile turntables and my own more than decent, from back in the day and they did not have variable speed and strobes etc and they sounded awesome through a good amp/receiver and speakers.

One thing to watch for is that on most non-USB TT's they have Phono output level. You will have to get a phono preamp to match the output so that it works into a DAW or other stereo /receiver amp that does not have Phono input. I got one of these http://www.samash.com/p/Rolls_VP29%20Phono%20Preamp_-49962604?cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Turntable%20Preamps-_-VP29%20Phono%20Preamp-_-RVP29 when I ran my regular TT into a line level mixer.

The USB TT's of course do not need it.

Most of the USB one's come with some kind of basic software to edit out scratches etc and bounce to mp3 etc. You could also pop for Izotope RX2 if you have some killer old albums you want to digitize, that are scratched and noisy.

Lenco

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lx49Qclikco/TeYKsyqdSoI/AAAAAAAAAKA/Wl4r9DMSpbk/s1600/DSCN5413.JPG

Thorens

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/4/1378970/thorens%20over.jpg

Unless you're one of those nostalgia buffs (who typically never owned turntables before) who think that scratches and groove noise sound 'cool,' you're going to want to get a good table and a good arm and cartridge and take the trouble to set them up properly.

Typically, this was done by the shop you bought from in the case of hi fis. But, of course, regular consumers -- even high end ones -- got the short end of the stick -- typically after paying something like $400-$700 (in huge 60s dollars!) for crap consumer gear shoved in a cheezy 'mediterranean' console cabinet. (After the 'component stereo' craze fostered by GIs buying good quality Japanese hi fi gear at PX's for crazy low prices, some of the remaining American nameplates like Fischer and Scott sold themselves out and started making crap consoles, too.)

Anyhow, if you can't pay to have someone set up the cartridge and tonearm properly, you'll want to read up, buy yourself a good stylus gauge, bust out the jeweller's screwdrivers, etc, and do it yourself. A properly set up cartridge, with the needle in precisely the right spot at precisely the right angle, with the stylus weight in an acceptable range (too heavy or too light will grind up your records) and with the appropriate anti-skate mechanism settings is the very thin line between enjoying your records as they sound new and... you know. Nostalgia, at the best.

Oh, and, from what I read at GS, you're going to want to read the release reviews for the pressings you are looking to buy -- because it is apparently now common practice to simply take the master for the CD and cut that into the disk... complete with ~20 kHz bandlimit and whatever horrid squashing the label mandated.

(This is parallel to the apparently common phenomenon of "HD" digital releases on DVD-Audio or SACD that are simply the CD masters moved into a "HD" format -- but still frequency bandlimited to 20 kHz and with an effective S/N ratio of ~ 90 dB.)

Variable speed turntables were usually 4 pole conventional motors, as I recall. There wouldn't be much point in putting the typical turntable strobe on an hysteresis synchronous (even if you went through the trouble of setting up a varispeed on it) because the same power line frequency was what drove the strobe and the hysteresis synchronous motor. (That said, I suspect you could use an onboard crystal clock circuit to fire your strobe. Mike would know more about that stuff and how it worked on studio decks, I suspect.)

To calibrate a turntable you best get a calibration vinyl which contains all the tracks and grooves, as well a plane area with no grooves to calibrate the antiskating

for old 78 RPM shellacs you need an extra stylus

"Spike was the Frank Zappa of his era and the songs are the extreme of satire."

Beware cartridge prices......about a 99% mark up. Used to sell some hi-fi in the '70's. My Micro Acoustic cartridge retailed at around $700.00...our cost was @ $29.00!!

And his daughter Leslin Ann Jones is a Grammy-award winning engineer And a cool person, too.

Really?

I totally get the interest in vinyl. In a sense, you're removing a stage between the original music in the air and what hits your ears. In this case, A/D and D/A. True, it's replaced with lathe and later the needle to surface repro stage... but it does have the effect of getting closer to the source.

So I got a "Victrola". Actually a 1920's Sonora table top model. And I went about picking up recordings that were recorded without any electricity. The effect of removing those stages is uncanny.

Caruso singing into a very large cone along with accompaniment, that sound pressure cutting grooves. Those groove later being "amplified" purely by the needles contact to the vinyl, and a horn on this side. The effect is not what I would've thought. I assumed it would be a very crude reproduction. Granted the bandwidth is reduced, physical noise is high, lots of other artifacts and yet, you are closer to a singer who has been dead for almost 100 years. The acoustic to acoustic chain is really something. not just a fun novelty, but an engrossing musical listening experience.

Anyway, my point being, modern vinyl as you're intending to experience, is a step "back" in that direction. Very cool.

A measurement/calibration platter contains:

1. RIAA (DIN 45541) cut characteristic cuves, time constant 3180, 319 and 75 microsecond:

- 1 kHz L channel, 0dB, 8 cm/s

- 1 kHz R channel, 0dB, 8 cm/s

- 1 kHz L channnel -10dB, 2.528 cm/s

- 1 kHz R channnel -10dB, 2.528 cm/s

- Fix frequencies from 20 khz to 11 kHz, -16 dB

- Fix frequencies 10 kHz to 1 kHz, - 10 dB

- Fix frequencies 1000 Hz to 20 Hz, -10 dB

2. Phase test

- Noise, changing from opposite in phase to mid-phase.

3. Side and balance test

- Noise, left, right, both channels

4. Rumble test

- 315 Hz at 0 dB (5,4 cm/s), -10 dB, -20 dB, -30 dB. Al test grooves in Seitenschrift, Kennrille and Leerrillen.

5. Frequency response

- Sweep from 30 Hz to 12000 Hz left channel

- Sweep from 30 Hz to 12000 Hz right channel

- Left channel: Frequency marker 62.5 Hz, 125 Hz, 250 Hz. 500 Hz, 1000 Hz, 2000 Hz, 4000 Hz and 8000 Hz.

- Right channel: Frequency marker 62.5 Hz, 125 Hz, 250 Hz. 500 Hz, 1000 Hz, 2000 Hz, 4000 Hz and 8000 Hz.

All frequencies RIAA characteristic (DIN 45541), cut with Br

I still use my Thorens turntable that I bought new in '71; original belt. B&O cartridge.

I have around 400 albums on vinyl, several hundred on CD, and listen to both. I remember when CD first came out and they touted the dynamic range. Wow, that's gonna be great..! Then reality set in.

Hey, that sounds great, Ernest! I do really like the way LPs sound also.

I don't know the answer to your question with current models. I have a turntable that is about 34 years old, a Technics SL-D2 direct drive with quartz strobe. I don't remember the exact cartridge, but it's a Stanton. I love the turntable. I love that it's lasted this long and has always been very reliable!!! I still have over 400 LPs. I used to have 1000, but they were taking up too much space when I moved to a much smaller house, so I had to let some of them go. Cleaning house.

And yet the signal from the phonograph is so much less accurate. Go figure.

But it's certainly a lot closer to a lot of folks' nostalgic memories. And that's not, of course, nothing.

I understand the sort of primal appeal of thinking the waves/vibrations from Caruso's voice actually pushed the needle through the master. The circumstances of listening on a Victrola can hardly help but put one in a reflective, contemplative mood. And those old Caruso recordings have a hauntingly distant quality... as though his voice is somehow echoing up from a long, long tunnel into the past...

But its the artifacts of the passing time as well as the limitations of pre-amplification record cutting that tend to lend it that quality. Having plenty of experience with (amp-cut) 78s and getting to know and love Robert Johnson's iconic recordings in the very scratchy, derived-from-78s release from the early 70s, I was certainly trepidatious about what would happen when they turned the restoration geniacs loose on the best Johnson sides they could find -- but I was pleasantly stunned at how much better the experience was. Nostalgia is nice at times -- but I'd rather hear the music.

I have 1200 vinyl lps, a couple hundred singles, and maybe a couple score 78s. And I have two nice turntables. But I find it much more satisfying to listen to nice, clean digital versions. I may know every little knick and pop in my favorite records -- but it doesn't mean I get any pleasure from reliving the pain of them. I loved my records, I took care of them. I used carefully adjusted, prosumer gear (think Dual manual), good cartridges, fresh needles, and, of course, I cleaned them before every play. I played them no more than once a day under normal circumstances. But they all started out a little bit noisy and just got noisier, if you played them. And it's really not that much different even when you try to only buy audiophile imports on good vinyl and you have a $10K turntable and a thousand dollar automated record cleaning system as one of my pals has. It's just the medium. If one likes the 'extras,' great. But I do have to call into question the oft-heard but nonsensical statement that vinyl records offer higher fidelity than CDs.

To what reality do you refer? CD's do offer a much greater dynamic range than LPs or tape. Now, maybe the 'reality' to which you refer is the sad one that sees label suits order ever-more squashed releases -- but that's a fault of the music biz and the types that collect at its upper reaches, not the medium.

I listen to classical music (among other genres) and the improved SNR (~90 dB as opposed to maybe 55-60 dB) is potentially stunning vis a vis the sonic limitations of vinyl -- not to mention that ever-diminishing spiral of fidelity as the needle moves ever closer to the center -- and, hence, ever 'slower.' And then there's the whole angular thing with conventional tonearms and the hinky servos of linear tonearms and... did they ever work out the kinks in the laser phono pick ups?

But, hey, definitely have fun with your turntable, Ernest. Not many people rely on horses for everyday transportation any more -- but they're still fun to ride.

I still own maybe about 2000 vinyls which are not released on compct disc yet, but anyway I would not give away my two turntables, for example so every two years I listen to some old EMI India ragas of the great north and south India artists

and when i don't want t to hear any music I listen to the test platters