I Finally Decided To Take Matters Into My Own Hands

[Hush]

I still listen on my Denon DD table. I remember Grado cartridges being well thought of and affordable, back in the day. Check out this place http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Phono-Cartridges

[Lee Knight]

And yet the signal from the phonograph is so much less accurate . Go figure. But it's certainly a lot closer to a lot of folks' nostalgic memories. And that's not, of course, nothing. I understand the sort of primal appeal of thinking the waves/vibrations from Caruso's voice actually pushed the needle through the master. The circumstances of listening on a Victrola can hardly help but put one in a reflective, contemplative mood. And those old Caruso recordings have a hauntingly distant quality... as though his voice is somehow echoing up from a long, long tunnel into the past... But its the artifacts of the passing time as well as the limitations of pre-amplification record cutting that tend to lend it that quality. Having plenty of experience with (amp-cut) 78s and getting to know and love Robert Johnson's iconic recordings in the very scratchy, derived-from-78s release from the early 70s, I was certainly trepidatious about what would happen when they turned the restoration geniacs loose on the best Johnson sides they could find -- but I was pleasantly stunned at how much better the experience was. Nostalgia is nice at times -- but I'd rather hear the music. I have 1200 vinyl lps, a couple hundred singles, and maybe a couple score 78s. And I have two nice turntables. But I find it much more satisfying to listen to nice, clean digital versions. I may know every little knick and pop in my favorite records -- but it doesn't mean I get any pleasure from reliving the pain of them. I loved my records, I took care of them. I used carefully adjusted, prosumer gear (think Dual manual), good cartridges, fresh needles, and, of course, I cleaned them before every play. I played them no more than once a day under normal circumstances. But they all started out a little bit noisy and just got noisier, if you played them. And it's really not that much different even when you try to only buy audiophile imports on good vinyl and you have a $10K turntable and a thousand dollar automated record cleaning system as one of my pals has. It's just the medium. If one likes the 'extras,' great. But I do have to call into question the oft-heard but nonsensical statement that vinyl records offer higher fidelity than CDs.

 

No.

 

You're assuming I'm either taken in by nostalgia or by quaint artifacts. But what I'm hearing is very real and I didn't expect it. I'm not saying better or worse, but there are things, currently not being measured, that are present in those old, nonelectric recordings, that aren't present in modern recordings.

 

For reals.

 

Just because there are known metrics that fall under the current understanding of "high fidelity" does not mean there are things going on we either don't know how to, or more likely, haven't even thought about measuring.

 

 

Using your logic, I could say I understand the convenient clean, clear appeal of a digital recording. Of the thought that all measurable spec have "proven" a high fidelity experience, there it is, you're hearing it. Damn that's clean, when in fact it's the convenience of the digital medium that you're really responding to without fully realizing it.

 

By the way, I love digital audio. I'm just noting that my experience is telling me we're not getting some of the things I'm hearing in this more primitive capture delivery method. And I find that fascinating.

[Ernest Buckley]

Hey Guys,

 

Thanks for the links. This entire purchase is new to me. Fortunately I have a friend who knows all the nuts and bolts of this so he`ll be walking me through this. I`m done trying to listen to crappy sounding CDs...

[A. Einstein]

 

I`m done trying to listen to crappy sounding CDs...

 

 

maybe in one of your next lifes you stop to listen to recorded music, all those recorded stuff is not the real thing

[philbo]

 

Unless you're one of those nostalgia buffs (who typically never owned turntables before) who think that scratches and groove noise sound 'cool,' you're going to want to get a good table and a good arm and cartridge and take the trouble to set them up properly. Typically, this was done by the shop you bought from in the case of hi fis. But, of course, regular consumers -- even high end ones -- got the short end of the stick -- typically after paying something like $400-$700 (in huge 60s dollars!) for crap consumer gear shoved in a cheezy 'mediterranean' console cabinet. (After the 'component stereo' craze fostered by GIs buying good quality Japanese hi fi gear at PX's for crazy low prices, some of the remaining American nameplates like Fischer and Scott sold themselves out and started making crap consoles, too.) Anyhow, if you can't pay to have someone set up the cartridge and tonearm properly, you'll want to read up, buy yourself a good stylus gauge, bust out the jeweller's screwdrivers, etc, and do it yourself. A properly set up cartridge, with the needle in precisely the right spot at precisely the right angle, with the stylus weight in an acceptable range (too heavy or too light will grind up your records) and with the appropriate anti-skate mechanism settings is the very thin line between enjoying your records as they sound new and... you know. Nostalgia, at the best. Oh, and, from what I read at GS, you're going to want to read the release reviews for the pressings you are looking to buy -- because it is apparently now common practice to simply take the master for the CD and cut that into the disk... complete with ~20 kHz bandlimit and whatever horrid squashing the label mandated. (This is parallel to the apparently common phenomenon of "HD" digital releases on DVD-Audio or SACD that are simply the CD masters moved into a "HD" format -- but still frequency bandlimited to 20 kHz and with an effective S/N ratio of ~ 90 dB.)

 

 

I agree about the needle & tonearm setup. When my needle went bad, I sprung for another Shibata stylus for about $100, and it was worth every penny. (There are huge debates on the platinum-ear audiophile sites about them, but I like their sound lot more than conical ones). Also, the weight of the needle should be no more than 1 gram.

 

My turntable is an ancient '70s Kenwood KD-2055. The only other thing I've replaced is the belt, once. It's still going strong...

[Ernest Buckley]

That is the next step Rudy but at this time, but I have to be honest, I have not been too happy with the sound of live concerts in the last 10 years either unless its without amplification.

[A. Einstein]

amplification is not a music instrument and I don't like those machines, even thus I own the best studio amps available and the best high resolution monitors, it still sounds like an inflatable doll.... can you imagine what it mean for me as Italian to sit 18 hours everey day in front of a pair of inflatable dolls?

[Ernest Buckley]

I didn`t know you were Italian!

[A. Einstein]

Hobby Italian. My grandfather came to Switzerland in the 19th century. I live 150 kilometer from the Italian border. I spend every free minute in Italy, or France.

[Ernest Buckley]

Oh, that makes sense!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[A. Einstein]

the blondes in Switzerland love hobby Italians

[Huh?]

and when i don't want t to hear any music I listen to the test platters

 

Okay now for that I will allow myself a snicker......and a lower case lol!!!

[electrochrisso]

Might also be a consideration to choose one that plays 78's too, as there might be some kind of comeback, I suppose the faster the speed the better audio quality.

 

http://www.tomwaits.com/news/article/108/Preservation_Hall_Jazz_Band_Tom_Waits_On_78_rpm_Vinyl/

[Anderton]

Saw an interesting comment from the B-B-Q thread where someone wondered if the reason why people like vinyl better is because they tend to listen to vinyl over a real hi-fi system with actual speakers. Would you like vinyl as much if you listened to it on iPod earbuds :ick:?

[John Bartus]

Okay, I don't get it...

 

 

Compared to 8-tracks and cassettes, vinyl was inarguably superior. But compared to CDs or 24-bit digital audio? The problems with digital we all got to know (and managed to overcome) through the 80s and 90s. The problems with vinyl are there to stay: compressed dynamic range, low-frequency needle rumble, scratches and pops, and that blasted (yet necessary) phono RIAA EQ. I remember the first time I heard a good CD with drums and cymbals that sounded real, I was sold. No more smeared high frequencies that were typical with even the best virgin vinyl pressings.

 

And this isn't an analog vs. digital thing. A well-done analog recording will sound better and truer to its source on a 16-bit CD that it will after having been transferred and cut onto a vinyl record.

 

Perhaps what we're hearing is the sound of competent mastering engineers who knew how to get the best out of vinyl, who understood how to wring the absolute best the format could offer. There are a lot of crappy sounding CDs -- but also a lot of great sounding CDs that reveal just how good 16-bit can sound.

 

But then again, it really doesn't matter, what with MP3s and iPods being the delivery format of choice these days.

 

[blue2blue]

No. You're assuming I'm either taken in by nostalgia or by quaint artifacts. But what I'm hearing is very real and I didn't expect it. I'm not saying better or worse, but there are things, currently not being measured, that are present in those old, nonelectric recordings, that aren't present in modern recordings. For reals. Just because there are known metrics that fall under the current understanding of "high fidelity" does not mean there are things going on we either don't know how to, or more likely, haven't even thought about measuring. Using your logic, I could say I understand the convenient clean, clear appeal of a digital recording. Of the thought that all measurable spec have "proven" a high fidelity experience, there it is, you're hearing it. Damn that's clean, when in fact it's the convenience of the digital medium that you're really responding to without fully realizing it. By the way, I love digital audio. I'm just noting that my experience is telling me we're not getting some of the things I'm hearing in this more primitive capture delivery method. And I find that fascinating.

Well, there is a certain harmonically complex character to the distortion in the shellac grooves of the old 78s after the brutish styli of my old man's generation had gouged them for a while. There's certainly that.

 

I'd be more likely to suggest that the records have talismanic value -- than any sort of enhanced signal fidelity due to the more direct nature of their capture.

 

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd quickly sacrifice my CD collection (I listen over MOG mostly anyhow) to preserve some century old disk or cylinder -- not for my own collection, but for history's sake. And some of my LPs certainly have sentimental value to me bordering on the talismanic.

 

But I listen to 320 kbps streams of records I own on vinyl and that I quite clearly recall the sound of on vinyl, and I often find myself thinking, man, if I could have only heard this album sounding like this back then when I was obsessed with it.

[Anderton]

I think the deal is this. Vinyl as a medium isn't necessarily superior. However, vinyl recordings are from an era where the dynamics weren't slammed, and music was allowed to "breathe" more. Dynamics are a crucial component of the musical experience, so having them available "for your listening pleasure" is perhaps one reason why people like listening to records.

 

One of the great audio abominations was "re-mastering" perfectly good master tapes or resurrected vinyl and making it sound "contemporary" by slamming it and hyping the high end One of my favorite recordings is the Byrds' "Notorious Byrd Brothers." I had just about worn out the grooves, and was thrilled to see it show up on CD at my local record store. I wasn't so thrilled when I listened to it.

[blue2blue]

I agree about the needle & tonearm setup. When my needle went bad, I sprung for another Shibata stylus for about $100, and it was worth every penny. (There are huge debates on the platinum-ear audiophile sites about them, but I like their sound lot more than conical ones). Also, the weight of the needle should be no more than 1 gram. My turntable is an ancient '70s Kenwood KD-2055. The only other thing I've replaced is the belt, once. It's still going strong...

I would say that the weight of the needle should be as much as is required to maintain as distortion free contact with the vinyl as possible. It's nice to have an arm/cartridge that can track a gram or under gracefully -- but precious few can. If it takes a gram and a half or even two grams for someone's arm/cartridge to track properly, they should use that weight or not play it until they can get things more dialed in. Tracking so light that the needle is bouncing around in the groove creates more damage than tracking heavy but with solid contact. It took me forever for that to sink in.

[blue2blue]

Okay, I don't get it... Compared to 8-tracks and cassettes, vinyl was inarguably superior. But compared to CDs or 24-bit digital audio? The problems with digital we all got to know (and managed to overcome) through the 80s and 90s. The problems with vinyl are there to stay: compressed dynamic range, low-frequency needle rumble, scratches and pops, and that blasted (yet necessary) phono RIAA EQ. I remember the first time I heard a good CD with drums and cymbals that sounded real, I was sold. No more smeared high frequencies that were typical with even the best virgin vinyl pressings. And this isn't an analog vs. digital thing. A well-done analog recording will sound better and truer to its source on a 16-bit CD that it will after having been transferred and cut onto a vinyl record. Perhaps what we're hearing is the sound of competent mastering engineers who knew how to get the best out of vinyl, who understood how to wring the absolute best the format could offer. There are a lot of crappy sounding CDs -- but also a lot of great sounding CDs that reveal just how good 16-bit can sound. But then again, it really doesn't matter, what with MP3s and iPods being the delivery format of choice these days.

Where's the Like button?

[blue2blue]

I think the deal is this. Vinyl as a medium isn't necessarily superior. However, vinyl recordings are from an era where the dynamics weren't slammed, and music was allowed to "breathe" more. Dynamics are a crucial component of the musical experience, so having them available "for your listening pleasure" is perhaps one reason why people like listening to records. One of the great audio abominations was "re-mastering" perfectly good master tapes or resurrected vinyl and making it sound "contemporary" by slamming it and hyping the high end One of my favorite recordings is the Byrds' "Notorious Byrd Brothers." I had just about worn out the grooves, and was thrilled to see it show up on CD at my local record store. I wasn't so thrilled when I listened to it.

One of my pet b

[MikeRivers]

 

One thing to watch for is that on most non-USB TT's they have Phono output level. You will have to get a phono preamp to match the output so that it works into a DAW or other stereo /receiver amp that does not have Phono input. The USB TT's of course do not need it.

 

 

I just had to chuckle at that - that we now have to distinguish turntables by whether or not they have a USB output. For someone who grew up with turntables and record players, it goes without saying that the USB output is "something else."

 

Of course all phono cartridges except for the really early crystal cartridges need a preamp to provide the proper load impedance to the cartridge (the industry has pretty much settled on 47 k? for moving magnet cartridges and "low" for moving magnet cartridges), amplify the approximately mic-level output, and provide the RIAA (and others if you plan to play 78s and old European records) equalization curve.

 

Those requirements are all satisfied by a "phono preamp" or the phono input of a standard stereo receiver. Many modern surround and "AV" receivers don't have a suitable input and you'll need an external preamp to give you an equalized line level signal. Most stereo receivers that you'll find at a yard sale or thrift shop will have a phono input that's good enough for casual listening. You Tape Out (most have one) has the minimum circuitry and controls ahead of it and will provide the line level RIAA-equalized output that you need.

 

 

Most of the USB one's come with some kind of basic software to edit out scratches etc and bounce to mp3 etc. You could also pop for Izotope RX2 if you have some killer old albums you want to digitize, that are scratched and noisy.

 

 

Since EB said he wanted to buy some new phonograph records, I suspect that his goal is to listen to the records, not to digitize them. So he'll probably prefer to spend his budget on a better quality turntable and cartridge than for a (usually pretty basic) RIAA-equalized preamp, A/D converter, and USB port (the latter, or maybe all three, usually being on a single chip). He's smart enough to connect the output of the preamp to his computer if he wants to make MP3s to take with him when he's at the gym.

[A. Einstein]

just found out my turntable has no output at all, damn, all the the music I listend to in the past 58 years I imagined, composed it myself

[MikeRivers]

 

Variable speed turntables were usually 4 pole conventional motors, as I recall. There wouldn't be much point in putting the typical turntable strobe on an hysteresis synchronous (even if you went through the trouble of setting up a varispeed on it) because the same power line frequency was what drove the strobe and the hysteresis synchronous motor.

 

 

The cartridge, light as it is, can actually put a little drag on a synchronous motor, and they can "slip" and run a little slow. A more powerful motor and higher mass platter stabilizes this.

 

Multi-speed turntables using a 4-pole motor generally have a stepped pulley with a belt or a stepped drive shaft with an idler wheel between the drive and turntable rim.

 

Modern direct drive turntables usually have a DC motor with its speed controlled by the DC voltage and servo-stabilized by a tachometer on the motor (and hence the turntable) shaft.

[MikeRivers]

 

Saw an interesting comment from the B-B-Q thread where someone wondered if the reason why people like vinyl better is because they tend to listen to vinyl over a real hi-fi system with actual speakers. Would you like vinyl as much if you listened to it on iPod earbuds :ick:?

 

 

When I listen to recorded music, regardless of the source, I listen on speakers, when sitting in a comfortable chair, sometimes with some refreshment at hand. "Temporary" music listening is just . . well . . . so temporary.

[Jimbroni]

My buddy bought a Gemini (i think) turntable, either way its a DJ grade turntable meant for well DJ's, scratching and all that. I have to say that thing sounds great, plays great, even has rewind, and pitch bending. One of the big things for though is that its robust.