Interesting choice of words for an Obama article...

[BlueStrat]

 

Sorry, I wasn't specific because I was focusing on the bigger picture. As to details, I'm talking about B of A's interest rate on credit cards, which some cases now hits 30% (up from 17-18%). And I heard on the news (sorry, don't have a link or anything) that short-term cash advances on credit cards have an interest rate of 110%. That's not interest, that's usury. B of A said it was necessary to "cover all the bad debts." So here we go again: People who play by the rules and make enough money to pay the taxes to bail out the banks have to cover for the deadbeats that the banks themselves enticed into their scams. This is beyond wrong, and unless this administration starts reining these people in, I can't wait for the midterm elections. And I'm not going to vote Republican, either.

 

 

Well, that makes sense and I concur! But I have to agree with amp and say that right now, we need a deterrent for debt, not an enticement for more of it.

 

My grandparents never owned a new car and never owned their own home. Why? Because they couldn't afford it and when they were growing up, consumer debt was considered something that only idiots and losers undertook. My grandparents simply refused to live beyond their means. They both died without owing anyone anything.

 

My dad, however, was a different story. He was a WW2 vet and through the enticement of the GI Bill, went into debt for a home. Still, that was the only debt they had, and he was able to support a family of 6, maintain an 80 acre ranch, have 10 horses and 12 cows, keep 4 cars running, etc on 600 dollars a month.

 

Fast forward to today: My entire life has been debt, just like all of my peers. Houses, cars, appliances, TV, music gear, vacations, everything is enjoyed now and paid for later. And believe me, at age 54, I'm paying for it. With no room for error, one event happens and we're toast. My wife and I make decent money, or did, until I got laid off for the first time in nearly 18 years in February and lost my hefty salary. Now I'm back to doing part time work hourly, scrounging for gigs, and collecting unemployment. My U-joint just went out in my work truck. With 176k miles on it, the motor could go any time. And so on. Life happens. We have some money stashed away in savings, but only few thousand.

 

It's completely my fault, and I blame no one. However, I do think credit should be harder to get. I have a friend who lost his job awhile back and took a job temporarily as an over the phone credit card debt collector. In his training, he was told to go easy at first, because now with the economy being where it is, credit card companies are counting on penalties and late fees as income. Therefore, his job was to help the client just continue to pay the fees and penalties and maintain the debt. He did it for a couple of weeks and couldn't take it any more so he quit. He got tired of talking with broke people and trying to squeeze money out of them they don't have, people who should never have been issued a card in the first place. My kids started getting credit card offers when the were seniors in high school. That should be illegal.

 

But the point is, selling debt has become big business. It earns as much or more as actually selling products does. Debt has become an investment tool. And so many of us seem to have no issues with the government's descent into the madness of debt measured in trillions of dollars, because so many of us know debt as a way of life. My wife and I sat down and added up all the interest we pay on debt between or mortgage, car payment and consumer debt, and it's about 1500 dollars a month. It sucks and it's a curse on our culture, and as soon as we're able we're dumping it.

 

Because they prefer it to devolving from a recession into a depression.

And you don't see how quadrupling the debt in just a few years is going to create and prolong a depression? How does anyone get financially flush by trying to eliminate debt by borrowing and reduce deficits by spending?

 

Just paying the interest on the debt we're racking up will suck an enormous amount of capital out of the economy that could be used for private sector investments. The only alternative government will have to to keep printing more money with nothing to back it up-hello, hyper inflation, hello 30 dollar loaves of bread.

[amplayer]

And you don't see how quadrupling the debt in just a few years is going to create and prolong a depression? How does anyone get financially flush by trying to eliminate debt by borrowing and reduce deficits by spending? Just paying the interest on the debt we're racking up will suck an enormous amount of capital out of the economy that could be used for private sector investments. The only alternative government will have to to keep printing more money with nothing to back it up-hello, hyper inflation, hello 30 dollar loaves of bread.

 

 

+1e6

Oops, I mean +1e12 (trillion)

 

I wonder how many Americans could say right now that all this massive government borrowing/bailouts has personally benefitted them to the extent that it is worth ripping off their kids and grandkids for it.

 

Our politicians will be noted in history as having totally ruined the greatest economy that ever was.

It's probably a good idea if we start mandatory training in Mandarin and Cantonese for our schools.

 

I have an insidious idea about how ordinary Americans could try to get some of it back:

1) All Americans with credit good enough to buy a house take steps to hide all their financial assets. For instance, money could go to overseas banks. Assets could be transfered to relatives. etc.

2) These same people go and get Zero down loans for a new house only from banks that have been bailed out by the government. Take any steps necessary to get the zero down loan, including being dishonest about ethnicity in order to gain an advantage.

3) These people make a few payments on these loans and then abruptly stop paying on their loans.

4) These people take every step possible to stay in their houses as long as possible until they're evicted.

5) While these people are living rent-free, they take all the money they would have paid for these mortgages and transfer it into funds for their kids and grandkids, such as 529 plans. Thus, the money is transfered to the people who will be expected to pay off all the massive government spending.

 

Of course, this is just fantasy. I would not seriously advocate lies and deception even though our government is doing the same. And, there is probably some good reasons why my above scenario couldn't work for real.

 

My point is: The government is ripping off our kids and grandkids, and we should find innovative ways to fight back.

[the stranger]

 

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1105506

[the stranger]

 

Well, that makes sense and I concur! But I have to agree with amp and say that right now, we need a deterrent for debt, not an enticement for more of it. My grandparents never owned a new car and never owned their own home. Why? Because they couldn't afford it and when they were growing up, consumer debt was considered something that only idiots and losers undertook. My grandparents simply refused to live beyond their means. They both died without owing anyone anything. My dad, however, was a different story. He was a WW2 vet and through the enticement of the GI Bill, went into debt for a home. Still, that was the only debt they had, and he was able to support a family of 6, maintain an 80 acre ranch, have 10 horses and 12 cows, keep 4 cars running, etc on 600 dollars a month. Fast forward to today: My entire life has been debt, just like all of my peers. Houses, cars, appliances, TV, music gear, vacations, everything is enjoyed now and paid for later. And believe me, at age 54, I'm paying for it. With no room for error, one event happens and we're toast. My wife and I make decent money, or did, until I got laid off for the first time in nearly 18 years in February and lost my hefty salary. Now I'm back to doing part time work hourly, scrounging for gigs, and collecting unemployment. My U-joint just went out in my work truck. With 176k miles on it, the motor could go any time. And so on. Life happens. We have some money stashed away in savings, but only few thousand. It's completely my fault, and I blame no one. However, I do think credit should be harder to get. I have a friend who lost his job awhile back and took a job temporarily as an over the phone credit card debt collector. In his training, he was told to go easy at first, because now with the economy being where it is, credit card companies are counting on penalties and late fees as income. Therefore, his job was to help the client just continue to pay the fees and penalties and maintain the debt. He did it for a couple of weeks and couldn't take it any more so he quit. He got tired of talking with broke people and trying to squeeze money out of them they don't have, people who should never have been issued a card in the first place. My kids started getting credit card offers when the were seniors in high school. That should be illegal. But the point is, selling debt has become big business. It earns as much or more as actually selling products does. Debt has become an investment tool. And so many of us seem to have no issues with the government's descent into the madness of debt measured in trillions of dollars, because so many of us know debt as a way of life. My wife and I sat down and added up all the interest we pay on debt between or mortgage, car payment and consumer debt, and it's about 1500 dollars a month . It sucks and it's a curse on our culture, and as soon as we're able we're dumping it. And you don't see how quadrupling the debt in just a few years is going to create and prolong a depression? How does anyone get financially flush by trying to eliminate debt by borrowing and reduce deficits by spending? Just paying the interest on the debt we're racking up will suck an enormous amount of capital out of the economy that could be used for private sector investments. The only alternative government will have to to keep printing more money with nothing to back it up-hello, hyper inflation, hello 30 dollar loaves of bread.

 

 

You points are valid and I can say I'm in the same boat.

 

What irks me is the large percentage of our debt is due to engineered inflation and devaluation of the dollar. In addition to the straight fact that the banks loan money at one rate and borrow it from you at another.

 

The system is corrupt and designed to milk us for all they can. I think a large majority of our debt is illegitimate. In an honest and free market, none of us would bear near the debt we do now.

 

And combine this with the fact that we're brainwashed to follow exactly the path you just described, this is why I constantly challenge people to question the whole system and ask if the big picture we see is what we want. Most of what we think we want is pumped into our subconscious while we're in an alpha state. Our life and society is the result of one big marketing campaign.

 

Where does a life of mindless consumption lead? They keep telling us we have to save the economy, but the reality is our economy is one of the main mechanisms they strap us in with. And the bigger it gets, the bigger the restraints are going to get.

 

Local community based living is what we need. Locally produced goods and services. Family farms and local farmers markets. Regional systems of currency and bartering. Global currency is not an answer, it's another scam. It's another blatant subversion of the free market.

 

Community sustainability, rather than subservience to the corporate state.

[amplayer]

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1105506

 

 

The state of NH has about 400 state reps for a population of about 1.3 million. Assuming NH politics is similar to national politics, there is no reason to assume that having way more reps per population would make the system any more likely to be less of a 2-party system. In the NH house, the 2-party system is just as dominant as the US house.

[amplayer]

What irks me is the large percentage of our debt is due to engineered inflation and devaluation of the dollar. In addition to the straight fact that the banks loan money at one rate and borrow it from you at another.

 

 

I don't see how this fact is relevant. Banks can not loan money for free anymore than any of us can do our jobs for free. The only way around a profit motive for banks is for banks to be entirely government run, with no private interest. I fundamentally distrust government to run anything efficiently, so that idea stinks to me.