Members Jotown Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 so ball team playing is music?Michael Jackson's immense success in the "Thriller" era was a team effort. Quincy and Bruce couldn't have made anyone a star (or they would have) and MJ may still have been successful, but not at that level. You had an artist who already had an amazing run with the Jackson 5. You had an engineer who was/is arguably one of the best that ever was. And you have a producer who already had 25 years in the game at a very high level. You had a label that was willing to invest almost a million dollars in the recording alone. It took all of these things - plus the dawn of MTV - to make Thriller happen. It took the entire team to create the success. Take any one piece out and it would not have happened at the numbers that it did. And it will never happen again. So yes; the record business is like football. It is a team sport and all of the parts have to be working in order for the team to win. This does not mean that music or art is like football; but the record business certainly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Sayers Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Jotown - if you put Quicey and Bruce in a studio without Michael what would you get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Jotown - if you put Quicey and Bruce in a studio without Michael what would you get?Google is your friend. Both Quincy and Bruce have amazing and extensive discographies; you should check them out. Bruce has won at least 13 grammies and Quincy has almost 30. Here is another example. George Martin is a great engineer/producer who had a lot of success in his career, but when he wound up in the studio with the Beatles something really amazing happened because the combination created a great team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alndln2 Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Jotown - if you put Quicey and Bruce in a studio without Michael what would you get? Toto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 J Lo. Toto, after all, just retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Jotown, I think the reason people keep questioning your viewpoint is that you seem to want to clearly define what each person's role was without having been there yourself. The problem with your football analogy is that the roles of quarterback, receiver, and lineman are limited by the rules of the game. There are penalties to ensure that a lineman doesn't act like a receiver, for instance. However, in the process of music creation, people can exceed their defined roles as the ideas flow. Speaking personally -- but not specifically about any particular recording artist -- there have been times I haven't received credit for what I did and once I even received credit for something I didn't do. These things aren't gospel. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Nonetheless, I certainly want to acknowledge that the names you're citing are beyond reproach, Jotown. They obviously deserve credit for bringing a wealth of expertise to Michael's projects. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 I can't speak for Ken, but in my case, Methinks you are correct. Sorry. Well, no....if MJ is playing drums on a song, he's partially responsible for the sound of the drums. Because MJ's taking an active part in the arranging and mixing process, he's influencing much of the sound. All these are according to the source I quoted as well as other articles I've read. If you or Jotown can refute those sources, please do so. Otherwise, the sources are as they stand. Obviously, Q and Bruce had a huge influence on the sound as well. That's what happens when people work together. When people record at my studio, even though I am engineering, they are partially responsible for the sound because they have input into every facet of the recording. That's just how it is when everyone works together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Jotown, here's a great example. While we're cutting tracks for my upcoming album, I sit down with my drummer and we talk about the type of groove that I (as a songwriter and producer) expect on the tune. And sometimes the drummer will come back and say, "Hey, how about this feel in the bridge," and I am often open to the suggestions. But ultimately, I would reject the drummer's ideas if they weren't jibing with the feel I'd had in mind. So, while I play exactly zero drums on my album, I am still responsible for most of the drum tracks. I think it's that type of semantic argument that's confusing people here. You already knew this, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Jotown, I think the reason people keep questioning your viewpoint is that you seem to want to clearly define what each person's role was without having been there yourself.Oh my god...............you all are killing me. Do you think that MJ scatted or arranged Eddie Van Halen guitar solo in "Beat It"? Of course not!! Did I have to be there to know that? Did I have to be there to know that MJ did not play drums on Billie Jean? (especially since it is well documented who did) Of course not! Did I ever say that I was there or had some inside info? Of course not! Does talking about the great contributions that Quincy, Bruce, and a gaggle of other amazing musicians, technicians and songwriters made to MJ's success in any way diminish or take away from Michael Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Jotown, it's not about semantics, it's about stating things unequivocally, as if your opinion were fact: to those who want to believe that is MJ beat boxing the drums on Billie Jean I have only two things to say at this point. Do you really think anyone here was suggesting that? Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 IMO, Michael Jackson was the inventor of BEAT BOX music as we know it today; add that to his list of innovations.I hate when people pick a phrase from a thread out of context and run with it. If you want to believe that MJ is totally responsible for the sound of the records he made with Bruce and Quincy go right ahead." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Have you ever heard Billy Jean? Since Geoff Grace worked extensively on Michael's music, I'd say he's probably familiar with that one. Jotown, it might be time for you to take a nice cleansing breath and step away from the RIP Michael thread. You're having trouble understanding what folks are telling you, and your need to be right at all costs is starting to alienate you, and you're an otherwise nice guy to whom I'd rather not have that happen. Just my advice, do what thou wilst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Since Geoff Grace worked extensively on Michael's music, I'd say he's probably familiar with that one. I was of course be sarcastic there. I just don't like to be quoted out of context. If anyone wants to understand the impact that Quincy and Bruce had on MJ's sound and records all they have to do is listen to "Off The Wall", "Thriller" and "Bad."Then listen to the records he made after that when he took over the production of his music. If you have any ears, or know anything about music at all you will hear the difference. And it is stunning. Both in the quality of the sound, and the songs as well as the sales.All I have been saying from the beginning here is give Bruce and Quincy credit where credit is due. I am a life long fan of MJ's music from the earliest days with the Jackson 5. My love of his music is tempered with my love of accuracy and crediting the behind the scenes people who are hugely responsible for the success of the artists who get to stand out front and get the accolades.Why people take offense to crediting those who deserve credit is something I cannot understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Ok, so far - MJ did not invent music at all- MJ did not invent beatboxing -tough he was really good on it-- MJ did not play or sequence the drums of "Billy Jean" -but he played them in "Beat it"- Still, he wrote 9 of the songs on "Thriller" and was really involved in the creation process and engineering of his records. And Quincy and Bruce could tell you that. So, maybe some people is exaggerating the credit of MJ on his records -and that's what legends are made of-, but he was, nonetheless, a substantial part of them in all aspects. ... quite different than, say, Britney Spears on hers. His faults in life, he may be having a trial somewhere else by a superior being... or maybe not. Who knows. Let The King of Pop rest in peace, with all his glory. Now the real question is... who may be the next King? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Why people take offense to crediting those who deserve credit is something I cannot understand. Because often in a real team effort, things go beyond what is easily explainable in a credit list. If one person beats on a table and another person takes that beat and interprets it on a drum kit, who is to credit for the part? In my mind, both of them, and why not just let that be accepted? You and I have both spent enough time working in studios that we're familiar with that process. Q, Bruce, and MJ were an amazing team that probably had a hand at nearly every aspect of the album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Q, Bruce, and MJ were an amazing team that probably had a hand at nearly every aspect of the album. Of course he was, and of course he did; And that is why I have several times in this thread stated how amazing his talent and contributions were. But those who take issue with my posts here don't seem to be able to hear that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 That's why I made a summary! ... now that you have agreed with it, I guess the rest could, too. But the sad punch line of the summary, was already well said by Craig: He brought joy to many people, and the one indisputable fact is that he no longer will be able to do so. He leaves behind people who truly love what he gave us, and in so doing, has provided a legacy for future generations to enjoy, or decode, or to speculate upon...each according to their own agenda. MJ has left the building, and he's not coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Why people take offense to crediting those who deserve credit is something I cannot understand. I don't see that happening here. What I see is people questioning some of the all or nothing absolutes of how you defined the credits.Best,Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members halfnote Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Perhaps we've come to the end of the debate about "who did what". I hope so, partly b/c it's a case where (I think) people are a bit hung up on extraneous details & partly b/c it's a non-ending, speculative game. It's curious that this wrangle has taken place.I don't recall such contentious debate about a similar "everybody's-fingers-in-the-pie" situation such as the Beatles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Michael Jackson, the sheikh and the comeback album that came too late Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members diablosrising Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Was i the only one who liked "Dirty Diana"? Absa-freakin-loutley not my friend. R.I.P. Michael. You were my hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryst Posted June 29, 2009 Members Share Posted June 29, 2009 It was odd. When I first heard the news, I was in shock. That's it. The next day, I felt like was a shame that it happened. Then yesterday, I really cried. All kinds of memories flooded back from my childhood and how excited of a fan I was. Then I watched some youtube vids and I guess I had taken his talents for granted because I was "re-blown away" by some of the things I watched and read about him that I must have forgotten or maybe didn't pay much attention to. There will never be another artist like that. Ever. I'll always remember sitting in my bathtub as a little kid and begging my mom to play the "We are The World" record while I was taking a bath...over and over and over again because I loved when it was his turn to sing........and so many other memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted June 29, 2009 Members Share Posted June 29, 2009 Of course. But a quarterback throws the ball, and he gets credit for that. The reciever catches the ball, and he gets credit for that. The lineman blocks for the quarterback, and he gets credit for that. But the team gets credit for the win, and the blame for the loss, because even an outstanding quarterback can't win if the defensemen don't block the offense. While it may be interesting to know exactly who did what, that doesn't really affect the outcome of an album. The best drum part in the world wouldn't be appreciated if it was mixed so that it sounded muffled, or not miked properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 It was odd. When I first heard the news, I was in shock. That's it. The next day, I felt like was a shame that it happened. Then yesterday, I really cried. Then I watched some youtube vids and I guess I had taken his talents for granted because I was "re-blown away" by some of the things I watched and read about him that I must have forgotten or maybe didn't pay much attention to.I guess that is happening to some of us, too.I was yesterday -as another million people, I presume- watching YouTube videos... the 45 degrees angle of "Smooth Criminal" and many other "wow" momentos on his videos...Last night I played with a local band a small tribute to MJ -yeah, how original - and I did the keys and lead voice for "Billy jean" and synths for Thriller -playing that bass line live is fun, but somewhat hard on the hand-. Other people played the songs they knew.After that, the DJ/VJ played the intro of his DVD "HIStory" ... and then, I simply started dropping tears.Hey, this is why forums are great: you can talk to people who share common things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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