"We Are The World" - 25 Years Later

[Jotown]

70s: Wah-wah guitar 80s: Gated snare 90s: Scooped mids 00s: Pitch correction.

Apples and Oranges, and I completely disagree. Wah-wah guitars, Gated snares, scooped mids, are effects. Autotune - except in blatant robotic mode - is not an effect; it is a mask whose sole purpose trick the listener into thinking that the person singing actually has talent. Effects dont' do that.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

The truth is that most people cannot discern between autotuned and non-tuned stuff. And how can you care about something that you don't even know - or understand - exists?

 

 

...you and I darn well know that discussions of this exist in every newspaper, magazine, blog, casual music forum, music magazine, etc. I just don't see how you can continue to say this. What I've posted here - a really tiny sampling of the tidal wave of articles casually mentioning autotune with the assumption that people already know what it is, flies completely in the face of what you are saying.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

.... is not an effect; it is a mask whose sole purpose trick the listener into thinking that the person singing actually has talent. Effects dont' do that.

 

 

 

not talent, but singing in corrected tuning

 

talent is completly something else, and most people would not recognize talent when it came their way in red underware

[Synonym Music]

 

90s: Scooped mids

 

Really?

[Synonym Music]

 

That sums up my POV pretty well. I know how to tune vocals in a way where you could never tell which words I tuned and which ones I didn't. But that's not the style these days. It's an effect. People want it because they think it sounds modern and "better" to them. One man's classic is another's old-assed car. Guys like T-Pain and Rascal Flats have built hugely successful careers out of that sound. Many of the people here want them to stop using it on songs that they may hear because THEY don't like it. Especially on a classic song that has meaning to THEM. Get over it. Like gated drums, it will be gone soon enough and then we'll all have to find something else to spend our "hatin" energy on. Pop music is style. Sometimes the dress makes the girl look better than she has the right to look. Sometimes she just looks ridiculous. She looks different to different people. Her friends see her one way. Dad sees her another, and her boyfriend sees something else completely. What I see around here are a bunch of old men who want to see things stay the same as when they first got bitten by the music bug. I hate to be the one to tell you, but that's not going to happen. Steve

 

No, you're not paying close enough attention.

 

Some people think it ruins performances that would otherwise be great. Argue modern sound all you'd like. There is a point where tuning simply destroys all that it touches. The effect is born from correction. That was not the case with gated stares and wah pedals.

 

As an aesthetic it's fine. For the sake of simply being modern and nothing else, it's awful. Hearing divas tuned is not enjoyable to me, and it never has been. If that makes me curmudgeonly, so be it.

[Jotown]

 

Okay, but I see evidence to the contrary...that many do in fact know what it is. Again...mainstream media has already written articles on this, often without even bothering to define it because the assumption is that the AVERAGE READER ALREADY KNOWS ABOUT AUTO-TUNE.

Theoretically knowing what something is, and being able to discern when it is actually being used are vastly different things.

 

The average person does not realize that almost every vocal performance they hear on the radio is tuned. People like Kelly Clarkston (who doesn't even need it) and Rascall Flatts (who probably do need it). So yes; a lot of people are aware that autoune exists, but the vast majority of non musicians and non engineers couldn't pick it out on the radio unless it is the blatant robotic effect.

 

I just don't know how you can argue this. I talk to young people in their 20's every day about these things. Unless they are musicans, and unless they have actually heard a tuned vs an untuned performance,they cannot pick it out.

 

I was discussing this with a young lady - who is a singer - and she just could not accept that Martina McBride's recordings are heavily tuned. Now if you ever heard her sing live, or in the studio you would know that she consitently sings a semitone flat. Her tone is nice and the sound of her voice is nice (a lot nicer than Taylor Swifts) but they tune her front to bottom becuase they have to. Just as they tune just about everything in Nashville.

 

Most people just do not realize how pervasive pitch correction is in the modern commercial recording studio, and especially on projects that are major releases by major labels. It is just the way it is. And this has damaged the music industry as well as the talent pool that no longer has to learn how to sing, becuase the producer/engineer can just fix the pitch in the mix. I don't know how anyone can believe this is a good thing.

[rasputin1963]

If you listen to the end of 1956's "Walkin' After Midnight", you'll hear that Owen Bradley grafts on an extra "tail" onto Patsy's final "Me-e-e-e-e..."

 

She sings: "searchin' for me..."

 

....and then, in an overdub, a much longer "e-e-e-e" tail is grafted onto the end of her first "me". To give the song a really smooth, dramatic ending.

 

It's done so silkily-smoothly, you won't hear it unless you're really looking for it. (Thenceforth, you'll never fail to notice it!)

 

Is that cheating? Is that as bad as Auto-Tune?

 

Or the way Bones Howe strings an endless, seamless "e-e-e-e" of Marilyn McCoo's voice on the tag of 1967's "Up, Up And Away".

 

Now THAT one is blatantly artificial; no-one could sustain a note THAT long without taking a breath.

 

Is that hokum? As reprehensible as Auto-Tune?

[Jeff da Weasel]

Effects dont' do that.

 

Then you ain't using them right!

[UstadKhanAli]

 

So yes; a lot of people are aware that autoune exists, but the vast majority of non musicians and non engineers couldn't pick it out on the radio unless it is the blatant robotic effect. I just don't know how you can argue this.

 

 

 

We're gonna have to agree to disagree then. Clearly, I read about and meet a more discerning public than you do.

[coyote-1]

This.

They should have just written a totally new song for the cause.

Next thing ya know, all the metal dudes will go re-record "We Are Stars" for Haiti

[Guitzilla]

This. Next thing ya know, all the metal dudes will go re-record "We Are Stars" for Haiti

It would have to have a ton of guitar solos like the original. I think there were more guitarists than vocalists for that.

 

IMHO, the pretentious lyrics to "We're Stars" and "We are the World" are way worse than any of the auto-tuned vocals.

[Jotown]

No, you're not paying close enough attention. Some people think it ruins performances that would otherwise be great. Argue modern sound all you'd like. There is a point where tuning simply destroys all that it touches. The effect is born from correction. That was not the case with gated stares and wah pedals. As an aesthetic it's fine. For the sake of simply being modern and nothing else, it's awful. Hearing divas tuned is not enjoyable to me, and it never has been.

+1

[UstadKhanAli]

 

You just think that decieveing the listening public and faking a vocal performance is acceptable; and I do not.

 

 

I didn't say that. In fact, I strongly disagree with that, but really, have at it. All I've said this whole time is that much of the public is aware of autotune; you disagree. That's it. End of discussion.

[WRGKMC]

In that video the rap guy was using the autotune as an effect to get a robotic voice. It was intentionally cranked to be heard and get the notes to jump as he sings. Thats what I consider using autotune as an effect. Using it in stelth mode I consider it to be a repair tool.

 

I'm an old school singer that will do as many takes it takes to get it right without the use of a crutch. It makes you a much better singer in the long run. Editing multiple tracks is still a great second option for those who dont like autotune. It has its own set of challanges though.

 

Since I have the studio to re-record my vocals or anything else I want as many times as needed I dont use autotune for my vocals. My buddies on the other hand are only over once a week or so. Getting them back over to retrack is a hassel so it comes down to weather a tracks salvageable with prudent use of the tool. Is this cheating some how? When I use it for others Its just a tool to me, for myself, I'd rather sing it right. Maybe when I'm older and feeble and need a crutch I'll use it, untill then I still have a set.

[Gus Lozada]

Well, this is not about whereas using AutoTune is right or not. Or if Mac is better than PC

 

To each its own.

 

 

This song sucks.

This thread is all about it

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

oh, funny video, did Janet consult the same nose doctor as Michael?

[Anderton]

 

Apples and Oranges, and I completely disagree. Wah-wah guitars, Gated snares, scooped mids, are effects. Autotune - except in blatant robotic mode - is not an effect; it is a mask whose sole purpose trick the listener into thinking that the person singing actually has talent. Effects dont' do that.

 

 

My point wasn't the nature of the process, but how these things date a recording.

[Anderton]

When Auto-Tune and its inventor, Andy Hildebrand, are mentioned in the"Great White Moments in Black History" segment on Jay Leno, you have to figure it's pretty mainstream.

 

And Gus, Macs ARE better than PCs. Except, of course, for those PCs that are better than Macs.

[Jotown]

My point wasn't the nature of the process, but how these things date a recording.

I do agree with you on that.

[rasputin1963]

I autotuned the vox of a pro female singer I know.

 

I did it in "stealth mode" as WRGKMC puts it, above... You know: subtly, judiciously, delicately. No "Cher/stairstep/robots" at all

 

I thought she'd marvel at the results, but to my surprise she didn't like it at all.

 

She's a Blues and Roots Country singer here in Texas, and, to her, lazy intonations, overshot notes and pitch inaccuracies are part-and-parcel of her rootsy sound.

 

To her, perfect pitch, even subtly done, sounded sterile, wooden, belabored.

[Jotown]

 

When Auto-Tune and its inventor, Andy Hildebrand, are mentioned in the"Great White Moments in Black History" segment on Jay Leno, you have to figure it's pretty mainstream.

The question is not whether or not the idea of autotune is "mainstream." The question (at least my question) is whether or not the average person knows what it does (besides the blatant robotic thing) and if the average consumer of pop music realizes that 99 percent of what they are hearing is heavily (yet undetectably) tuned.

 

From my own experience in talking to many people about this, I am all but certain that the vast majority of people cannot detect pitch correction when it is devoid of artifacts. The exception would be music and audio professionals (and hobbyists) who realize what it does and how to hide that it is doing it.

[Extreme Mixing]

You really have a shrill point of view on this, Jo. It's pop. Fashion. Music.

 

Are you this upset that Geoff Emerick adjusted the speed of Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds to make the arrangement? And punching in 600 times is OK? Or not? That's a deception as well.

 

To each his own.

 

As for the song, I will just say that the level of difficulty in doing a collage song like this, is really high. Just try to make an arrangement with 30 or 40 singers sound like it works a few times. I have. It's hard. Although the song is not exactly my cup of tea, I actually respect the engineers and producers for pulling it off as well as they did.

 

Steve

[Jotown]

 

Are you this upset that Geoff Emerick adjusted the speed of Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds to make the arrangement? And punching in 600 times is OK? Or not? That's a deception as well.

I know that you really know that this is not the same thing. An effect used to make a unique recording with people who can actually sing is artistic license.

 

A device used to defraud the public into thinking that somone who cannot sing actualy can, is just pure fraud. It is not artistic license, but faking without a license. I know it makes an engineers job easier. I know it helps create something that doesn't completely suck (even though it really does suck) But it does damage to what music is, and it does damage to what singing is. And it even does damage to the inegrity capital of the engineer/producer who does the easy thing for someone they know can't sing.

 

Sorry if that was too shrill for you.

[AwayEam]

HEY BROS

 

Why are we all ganging up on Brotown?

 

He's absolutely correct that most people can't identify Autotune outside of blatant robotic mode.

 

Nobody understands why I start helicopter vomiting whenever a character starts singing in Glee

 

EDIT: I don't necessarily agree that it's "fraud," but that's cuz I use it too

[Anderton]

As I've always said about Auto-Tune...

 

When people claim it sucks, that's because they can't recognize when it's being applied tastefully.

 

I've used pitch correction in a few places on my vocals...I think probably less than a dozen times...and I don't think anyone could pick those instances out because a) any notes weren't off that much in the first place, so it didn't have to shift a lot and b) it's maybe one or two notes out of a song. By the time they've flown past, your ear is attracted by something else.

 

90% of the time when I use pitch correction, it's on the last note of a phrase.