I Have Sonar X1 Up and Running Here...

[Anderton]

 

Mr. Anderton, Can you give us the down and dirty and tell us if the Bakers have made any improvements on long standing bugs (such as copying envelopes) and features which leave much to be desired, for instance, routing limitations in the Matrix View or notation features? I want to know if Cakewalk has really made SONAR what is should be, "as advertised" so to speak. Too many times have I upgrade with each new version only to learn that it's features and functions fall short. Seems the more they add features the more legacy feature are left alone unperfected and forgotten. I'm sure you can relate. Can you give it to us straight, Craig(obi)? You're my only hope. Kind regards, tecknot

 

 

Don't expect any significant improvement in notation. I haven't checked it out in depth, but it seems pretty much the same.

 

As to routing limitations in matrix view...can you be more specific?

 

As to envelopes, I haven't gotten deep enough into them yet to give an authoritative answer to your question. But, the whole edit filter thing for envelopes is pretty cool...makes it impossible to edit the wrong envelope by mistake.

 

Sonar X1 is on a different machine than the one I use for online, so the next time I boot it up, I'll check out the envelopes in more detail.

[Anderton]

 

Do you know or do you expect X1 Producer to work any better, worse (the same) under Win7 (64 bit) than XP Pro?

 

 

I haven't installed Sonar on XP yet, only under 64-bit Vista. It works very well under 64-bit Vista, so I assume it would work as well, or better, with 64-bit Windows 7. I did go back to 32-bit Sonar 8.5 last night when I was in XP, and I will say it seemed slower than X1 with 64-bit Vista.

 

I'm going to leave the 8.5 installation on XP for a while before installing X1 on XP, I'm trying to work in 64 bits as much as possible to get a better grasp of what difference it makes.

[SF_Green]

Thanks for all the info Craig. This is a great thread. Just saw you had a Twitter feed and globbed onto that too. Cheers from SF! Bud

[tecknot]

As to routing limitations in matrix view...can you be more specific?

 

 

Sure, when dropping a MIDI clip in the a MV cell routed to a multi-timbral synth, the signal (form the Matrix) can only go to channel one of the synth. For instance, open TTS-1 in the TV and load a drum set in channel ten; drop a drum clip in the MV and route that to the TTS-1 track for playback. No matter what channel you choose in the tracks routing, you can only playback through channel one. I am certain if you could send the MV row to a specific MIDI channel, that would solve the problem.

 

What is your take on this predicament?

 

Kind regards,

 

 

tecknot

[Kerouac]

From the pics I've seen it looks very much like they appropriated some of the layout and ideas from Logic. Whaddaya think?

[Anderton]

Sure, when dropping a MIDI clip in the a MV cell routed to a multi-timbral synth, the signal (form the Matrix) can only go to channel one of the synth. For instance, open TTS-1 in the TV and load a drum set in channel ten; drop a drum clip in the MV and route that to the TTS-1 track for playback. No matter what channel you choose in the tracks routing, you can only playback through channel one. I am certain if you could send the MV row to a specific MIDI channel, that would solve the problem. What is your take on this predicament? Kind regards, tecknot

 

 

Gotcha. I've only been using Matrix View for audio, and rarely at that...when I want serious hardcore Matrix View, I ReWire Live into Sonar

 

I'll check out the MIDI aspect to see if there's a way to channelize it. Good catch.

[Anderton]

From the pics I've seen it looks very much like they appropriated some of the layout and ideas from Logic. Whaddaya think?

 

The dual fader thing in the Inspector is definitely Logic-inspired. They probably read my Logic Pro review where I went on and on about what a great feature that is

 

Also bringing screensets to the control bar is very "Logical," but they've always had window layouts so they've just made the feature easier to access. Which, come to think of it, has a lot to do with what X1 is all about.

 

In other "spot the influences": The Preferences are now unified, and handled very much the way Live does; and the Browser is sort of a morph of the Live and Studio One Pro browsers.

 

My latest "hey, this is cool" moment is the Smart Tool. It's not so much that it's multifunction, but now a single tool works across whatever window you're using. This falls into the "it's about time" category, and is very welcome.

 

I've been thinking about the notation thing. If I'm elected Emperor of the World, I will decree that someone put out a super-duper wonderful notation program that's a ReWire host, and all programs would need to be able to serve as ReWire clients so they could work with it. The notation program would also license technology from Melodyne to turn audio into MIDI blobs, which could then be turned into notation

[Anderton]

A small point, but I appreciate that I could import my track color definitions from 8.5 into the track view. I re-worked the colors to complement Vegas, as I often bounce between the two programs.

[V]

Do you know how it handles video? I write soundtrack music sometimes and it would be really handy if I could import videos and have them work properly. I always had issues with them glitching out on 8.5 64-bit

[Anderton]

 

Do you know how it handles video? I write soundtrack music sometimes and it would be really handy if I could import videos and have them work properly. I always had issues with them glitching out on 8.5 64-bit

 

 

It's been working great with video, but I generate a WMV to use as the reference file in Sonar...don't want to bog it down with a multi-gigabyte uncompressed AVI file. After I create the soundtrack in Sonar I render it, then bring it into the original Vegas project that's handling the uncompressed audio.

[Mesa4x12er2]

Sweet as a big Sonar guy since Cakewalk Pro Audio 8 I can't wait to give it a go. Overall do you feel it's a worthy step up from 8.5?

[Kerouac]

The dual fader thing in the Inspector is definitely Logic-inspired. They probably read my Logic Pro review where I went on and on about what a great feature that is Also bringing screensets to the control bar is very "Logical," but they've always had window layouts so they've just made the feature easier to access. Which, come to think of it, has a lot to do with what X1 is all about. In other "spot the influences": The Preferences are now unified, and handled very much the way Live does; and the Browser is sort of a morph of the Live and Studio One Pro browsers. My latest "hey, this is cool" moment is the Smart Tool. It's not so much that it's multifunction, but now a single tool works across whatever window you're using. This falls into the "it's about time" category, and is very welcome. I've been thinking about the notation thing. If I'm elected Emperor of the World, I will decree that someone put out a super-duper wonderful notation program that's a ReWire host, and all programs would need to be able to serve as ReWire clients so they could work with it. The notation program would also license technology from Melodyne to turn audio into MIDI blobs, which could then be turned into notation

 

Thanks. I'm a former Cakewalker who is in Logic now, but still use Cakewalk from time to time on other machines and work with a few people who use it solely. It's a trip to try and remember key commands though.

[Anderton]

 

Sweet as a big Sonar guy since Cakewalk Pro Audio 8 I can't wait to give it a go. Overall do you feel it's a worthy step up from 8.5?

 

 

ProChannel alone is a worthy step up, the UI change is a worthy step sideways. You won't have to go crazy learning everything all over again, with one exception I'll note in the next post; everything you know is there, it's just arranged more logically. The features that are totally new, like the browser, are obvious so it doesn't feel like you're moving up, just moving into a different space.

 

It's sort of like moving into a much nicer house next door than moving to a different state.

[Anderton]

It's a trip to try and remember key commands though.

 

...and that's the one thing you'd need to relearn, because they've been entirely re-defined but are far more logical and easy to remember. For example, "B" shows/hides the Browser window.

[rosefam6]

Hi Mr. Anderton, everyone!

Thanks for starting this thread on Harmony Central.

I have some basic questions: does the track compressor sound similar to the 1176, and buss compressor sound similar to the SSL 4000 board's buss compressor (the compression modules with or without the tube saturation module added in) ?

You probably have had the opportunity to use the real things in the studio as well as the Universal audio plug-ins and the Wave's plugins, not to mention the Liquid Channel as well as Duende.

Are the X1 Pro Channel compressors (again, with or without the tube saturation module added in) close enough to the real things so we of little budget can use these with confidence rather than having to save up for the above mentioned solutions to get the sound they provide?

You mentioned that the VC-64 had more character than these plug-ins. Is that without the tube distortion module applied?
I certainly would not be very excited about transparent compressors mated to a 1176 or SSL mix buss GUI.

Do they have any presets that make the compressors emulate the hardware it is designed to look like (incorporating the saturation module)?

That being said, it is a good feature to have the option for high-quality transparent compression for certain material.

Thanks

[Anderton]

Hi Mr. Anderton, everyone! Thanks for starting this thread on Harmony Central. I have some basic questions: does the track compressor sound similar to the 1176, and buss compressor sound similar to the SSL 4000 board's buss compressor (the compression modules with or without the tube saturation module added in) ? You probably have had the opportunity to use the real things in the studio as well as the Universal audio plug-ins and the Wave's plugins, not to mention the Liquid Channel as well as Duende. Are the X1 Pro Channel compressors (again, with or without the tube saturation module added in) close enough to the real things so we of little budget can use these with confidence rather than having to save up for the above mentioned solutions to get the sound they provide? You mentioned that the VC-64 had more character than these plug-ins. Is that without the tube distortion module applied? I certainly would not be very excited about transparent compressors mated to a 1176 or SSL mix buss GUI. Do they have any presets that make the compressors emulate the hardware it is designed to look like (incorporating the saturation module)? That being said, it is a good feature to have the option for high-quality transparent compression for certain material. Thanks

 

Okay...here's the thing: When you're emulating analog gear, the gear itself varies from unit to unit depending on which components were available at the time they were made, tolerances in the components themselves, and the like. This is why companies that do modeling talk about going through units to find the "golden" unit which they then modeled.

 

So I'm not going to get into the "it sounds like this, it sounds like that" debate...particularly because I might not WANT something that sounds exactly like an older analog module, but sounds better. For example, I've used real Pultecs a lot in the studio, and they're great...but I actually prefer some of the plug-in versions because they sound cleaner, while retaining the same character.

 

So the bottom line is this: Before ProChannel, I tended to use the PSP Audioware Master Q, Master Comp, and Vintage Warmer to do this kind of processing because they're fabulous plug-ins. I no longer feel the need to use them because I can get similar results with ProChannel, and it's convenient to have it right there, in the mixer. There are still some times I like the PSP plug-ins for particular reasons (e.g., more bands in the Master Q, which if needed is more convenient than busing to another ProChannel).

 

The two ProChannel compressors are different. The bus compressor is definitely more of a "glue" compressor for program material, while the LA2A type compressor seems better for individual tracks. Where they acquire "character" is when you push them. With moderate amounts of compression, the sound is pretty transparent. But if you push them, you get the more "processed" sound associated with the hardware being emulated.

 

The saturation is hit-and-miss. It sounds better than anything else I have on some material, and not very good on other material. For the latter, I still have Vintage Warmer but even that doesn't do everything. Sometimes using the preamp in an amp sim set to extremely conservative settings does the job. Distortion is always a mystery

 

The VC-64 has more "character" in the sense that it has the extra compression stage and the EQ seems designed for a more "aggressive" as opposed to "smooth" sound. But this all gets very subjective, and I'm not even sure my opinions are all that relevant because you may have a different ideal sound in mind than I do.

 

The takeaway from all this is that I'm getting sounds I really like out of the ProChannel. Whether it's just like a particular piece of hardware is hard to say without A-Bing with the unit in question, but that's less important to me than whether I can get the results I want to get.

[rosefam6]

Thank you so much for the detailed answer.

 

On a similar subject, we are extremely excited about the Steven Slate console VST. I liked what I heard from the Steven Slate Virtual console, as we chose the Steven Slate in the box mix over the outside the Box analog mix every time. Can the Pro Channel create the Big Console sound as advertised?

 

Thanks!

[Anderton]

 

Thank you so much for the detailed answer. On a similar subject, we are extremely excited about the Steven Slate console VST. I liked what I heard from the Steven Slate Virtual console, as we chose the Steven Slate in the box mix over the outside the Box analog mix every time. Can the Pro Channel create the Big Console sound as advertised? Thanks!

 

 

Haven't check out the Slate console VST - yet!! - so I can't compare.

 

I will say that so far, everything of his I've checked out rocks so I wouldn't be surprised if the console VST rocks, too. However, past a certain point, you start getting into "different" rather than "better" or "worse," and it gets very subjective.

[roomjello]

How are the 32bit plugs working in it?

[djwayne]

I have Sonar X1 Essentials up and running with my Ivory II program and my East West Symphonic Orchestra Gold Program, everything is working great for me !! Great bang for the buck !!! Excellent workflow.....

[Anderton]

I can see you're a "Control Bar at the bottom" guy. I'll have to try that, with previous Sonar versions I had two user toolbars, one at the top with common stuff, one at the bottom with loop/punch/marker-oriented functions. The new Control Bar is the only X1 feature that's taking me some getting used to - everything else is so logically done now. When I go back to 8.5 (still installed on my 32-bit XP machine, but that will change soon), it seems kind of quaint.

[djwayne]

Yes I put the control bar on the bottom to make it have that Adobe Audition 3 feel. I have AA3 and I toggle back and forth between programs and having similar layouts just makes my work flow easier. X1 also has a very similar color to Audition 3 and Ivory II, so the programs all kind of blend together nicely.

[tecknot]

A small point, but I appreciate that I could import my track color definitions from 8.5 into the track view. I re-worked the colors to complement Vegas, as I often bounce between the two programs.

 

 

Speaking of colors, can you post some pics? I don't see any difference in importing color presets nor assigning colors to object in X1. It stays the same but for one or two things like a background.

 

X1 is bumming me out after getting past the 'new' look. The ProChannel is a huge plus, but it doesn't compensate for the changes and lack of what used to be available in SONAR (customization, tool bars, etc.). In fact, utilizing effects in the PC drags my machine down in a big way. Which bring me to ponder why the Bakers justify raising the required specs and not working to make SONAR run more efficiently. I am experiencing more cons then what pros I find...and believe me, I am still looking.

 

Kind regards,

 

 

tecknot

 

P.S. Craig, why did you start your review here and not in the Pro Review forum?

[djwayne]

I have a Core Two Duo e6750...266 htz... with 2 gigs of memory and I'm having no problems at all with the 32 bit Essentials version of X1. My OS is Windows 7-32 bit, I'm also running Ivory and EWSO Gold, and I'm running good. I also have my sample programs on SSD drives so that may be why it's working so well for me.

I'm finding out the more I monkey around with X1, the more I like it. It does take a bit of getting used to, and you need to re-learn a few things a little, but after a few hours of playing with it, I really like X1 a lot.

[pbognar]

The dual fader thing in the Inspector is definitely Logic-inspired. They probably read my Logic Pro review where I went on and on about what a great feature that is Also bringing screensets to the control bar is very "Logical," but they've always had window layouts so they've just made the feature easier to access. Which, come to think of it, has a lot to do with what X1 is all about. In other "spot the influences": The Preferences are now unified, and handled very much the way Live does; and the Browser is sort of a morph of the Live and Studio One Pro browsers. My latest "hey, this is cool" moment is the Smart Tool. It's not so much that it's multifunction, but now a single tool works across whatever window you're using. This falls into the "it's about time" category, and is very welcome. I've been thinking about the notation thing. If I'm elected Emperor of the World, I will decree that someone put out a super-duper wonderful notation program that's a ReWire host, and all programs would need to be able to serve as ReWire clients so they could work with it. The notation program would also license technology from Melodyne to turn audio into MIDI blobs, which could then be turned into notation

Craig,

You'd mentioned elsewhere that X1 is more laptop friendly than 8.5, and with what I've seen of the UI. At first glance, I'd have to agree, as it looks a lot like Logic, and docking helps enormously, but is it true that some objects are larger in X1 which would effectively eat up valuable laptop screen real estate, or do you still think it is viable to use X1 on a laptop.

With 8.5 and now X1, I see Sonar incorporating the best bits and pieces from other players - with the exception of the staff view. I don't need a super notation rewired into Sonar - the notation functionality of Logic would be just fine - unless of course if Melodyne features were included

I can't believe that I'd have to go into the PRV to enter in 16th or 32nd note triplets if the weren't in complete groups with no embedded rests. Come to think of it, you can't even insert 32nd note triplets in staff view. At least Brandon indicated on the Sonar forums that they are aware of the requests for improvements in the staff view.

I'm still on the fence regarding a switch to a Mac and using my XSkey to upgrade to Logic 9 - it has so much to offer in one package. Then again, I'm sure that there are still some illogical implementations in there.

But, X1 has made the decision harder. With Acid support, the Matrix view, the new improved UI and workflow, edit filtering, the smart tool, etc. - Sonar is looking really solid. And I have an existing investment in Producer 8.5.

In the end what matters is the software not getting in the way of the creative flow.