Will a 2 or 4X12 cab make my combo louder?

[LYSOL]

And 3dbs more is jack {censored}!

 

If you don't believe you need to change the watts by a factor of ten to double volume Google it as its a FACT!

 

You think watts and dbs are unrelated or something?

[paruwi]

 

And 3dbs more is jack {censored}! If you don't believe you need to change the watts by a factor of ten to double volume Google it as its a FACT! You think watts and dbs are unrelated or something?

 

 

 

If I want to double the volume - I try to get 3db more

 

it's much easier than Watt x 10......

 

If you want to make your 50 watt amp move four times more air ... and appear to be a lot louder, just double the speaker radiating area. That means that changing from a 1 x 12 cabinet to a 2 x 12 cabinet will do the trick, as an example.

 

Speakers and speaker cabinet design have a big part in all of this. JBL speakers are very efficient. There was a speaker by JBL years ago that produced 107 db output at 1 meter . Many speakers today have an output of about 85 db. Remembering the 3 db = power x 2 formula above, to get the same level at 1 watt from the JBL, out of a Celestion would require about 128 watts. EV speakers are also quite efficient, but not up there with some of the JBL speakers.

[LYSOL]

I know more speakers move more air and hence, sound better, that's why I run 2 85watt twin reverbs at live shows rather than one. You actually need 6dbs+ more, not 3 to perceive double the volume.

 

All I was referring to is this: If one requires DOUBLE the volume/overall sound,guts,power of a 10watter you are going to need a 100watter. That is if you don't want your amp to struggle, break up in a bad way and generally sound like {censored}.

 

Check these interesting reads out:

LINK1

LINK2

 

That is all/

[SirJackdeFuzz]

IF anyone around here want (((LOUD))) . . .

 

 

. . . get a MATAMP GT1, because, it is :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Watts vs. dB

 

 

[tlbonehead]

If I want to double the volume - I try to get 3db more it's much easier than Watt x 10...... If you want to make your 50 watt amp move four times more air ... and appear to be a lot louder, just double the speaker radiating area. That means that changing from a 1 x 12 cabinet to a 2 x 12 cabinet will do the trick, as an example. Speakers and speaker cabinet design have a big part in all of this. JBL speakers are very efficient. There was a speaker by JBL years ago that produced 107 db output at 1 meter . Many speakers today have an output of about 85 db. Remembering the 3 db = power x 2 formula above, to get the same level at 1 watt from the JBL, out of a Celestion would require about 128 watts. EV speakers are also quite efficient, but not up there with some of the JBL speakers.

Man, I hope you are trolling.

[paruwi]

 

Man, I hope you are trolling.

 

 

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/differences.html

[tlbonehead]

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/differences.html

Yeah, big deal. Some of that is accurate, some isn't. Yes, JBL guitar speakers are very efficient, the old D120/130s being in the 103 area @1w/1m. But your idea of other guitar speakers being in the 85db sensitivity is just plain silly. Most Eminence and Celestions are in the 97-102 area. And once again, when you add another speaker, or more than another speaker, the available power source gets split between the speakers, meaning each speaker then gets a weaker signal than if a single driver was receiving it all. Why do some people not get that part? The less signal a speaker gets, the less air it will move. So yes, the area of 2,3, or 4 cones have the capability of moving more air than a single one, but it gets reduced if the combined speakers aren't moving their cones as far as the single speaker would. People seem to think in 2 dimensions here for some reason. The 3rd dimension is just as important for moving air. Similar to the piston in an engine. A smaller diameter piston with a longer stroke will give you the same cylinder volume as a larger diameter piston with a shorter stroke.

[Steadfastly]

As already said, a 4x12 is too much for your 20W amp but a 2x12, strategically placed would make the sound "project" better and with good speakers will likely improve the tone.

[Bro Blue]

 

Yeah, big deal. Some of that is accurate, some isn't. Yes, JBL guitar speakers are very efficient, the old D120/130s being in the 103 area @1w/1m. But your idea of other guitar speakers being in the 85db sensitivity is just plain silly. Most Eminence and Celestions are in the 97-102 area. And once again, when you add another speaker, or more than another speaker, the available power source gets split between the speakers, meaning each speaker then gets a weaker signal than if a single driver was receiving it all. Why do some people not get that part? The less signal a speaker gets, the less air it will move. So yes, the area of 2,3, or 4 cones have the capability of moving more air than a single one, but it gets reduced if the combined speakers aren't moving their cones as far as the single speaker would. People seem to think in 2 dimensions here for some reason. The 3rd dimension is just as important for moving air. Similar to the piston in an engine. A smaller diameter piston with a longer stroke will give you the same cylinder volume as a larger diameter piston with a shorter stroke.

 

 

 

I believe this man to be correct. If you are moving 100 gallons of water per minute through a 1" pipe you are going to have a given water pressure as it exits the pipe. If you take that same 100 gallons per minute of water flow and route it through four pipes you do not have more water, so the force of the water as it leaves each pipe is reduced.

 

I think a 4x12 will sound bigger, but not really louder.

 

Or you can just mic it.

[tlbonehead]

but a 2x12, strategically placed would make the sound "project" better and with good speakers will likely improve the tone.

no it isn't.

[tlbonehead]

I believe this man to be correct. If you are moving 100 gallons of water per minute through a 1" pipe you are going to have a given water pressure as it exits the pipe. If you take that same 100 gallons per minute of water flow and route it through four pipes you do not have more water, so the force of the water as it leaves each pipe is reduced. I think a 4x12 will sound bigger, but not really louder. Or you can just mic it.

that is an applicable analogy. Probably be a bit louder and certainly fully and larger. But there are certainly the variables to consider.

[Steadfastly]

no it isn't.

 

I hate when someone contradicts me and doesn't tell me why! Look at all the extra typing I had to do below to find out why I may be wrong.

 

You may be right. Why do you say so? In my original reply, now, I did think about two 2x12's split and put in different places on a large stage might work in distributing the sound better. Regards, Steadfastly.

[cratz2]

I'm not sure if this thread is enlightening or a travesty...

 

In the 'real world' if you have a 40W tube amp over there and three closed back cabinets over here... one has a single 8 OHM EVM 12L, one has two 16 OHM 12Ls and one has 4 8 OHM 12Ls and you check each combo with the amp settings remaining the same, there's a pretty damn good chance the 4x12 will be louder than the 2x12 which will be louder than the 1x12.

 

To think otherwise is silly.

 

Yes, if you use a 5W amp to drive a 4x12 vs a good 1x12, there might not be as radical of a difference, but that's an extreme situation wherein each speaker in the 4x12 is only going to be seeing ~1 watt.

 

But to get back to the OP... if you have a 1x12 combo and you like how it sounds but it's not quite loud enough for your application, getting a 2x12 cab with the same speakers or more efficient speakers - used in conjunction with the speaker in the combo - then yes... it will be louder. Quite a bit louder.

 

Having said that, unless the amp is right at the peak of what it can possibly do, I'd probably spend some time with a good pedal to see if you can eek out a few more dB while keeping it in the gain range that makes you happy. Some of the pedals these days have a lot of fairly clean boost on tap... the OCD, the Barber Direct Drive... or the cheaper versions like the Dano Cool Cat Drive and Transparent Drive pedals... you can dial in quite a few dB of boost without radically changing the overall tone.

 

Have we established what speaker is in the combo right now?

[GCDEF]

Wow, there's a lot of wrong information in this thread.

 

tlbonehead has it right. The concept is really simple. Power comes from amplifiers. Speakers are passive devices. Unless they are more efficient, or unless your existing speaker(s) are nearing their maximum output, adding speakers doesn't more more air and it doesn't add volume.

 

Air movement comes from the excursion of the speaker, its in and out motion. When you add another speaker, you add more surface area, but you divide the power from the amp among all the speakers, which reduces each speaker's excursion and therefore its output and the amount of air that is moved.

 

The water analogy is a pretty good one. Assuming you have a pump that can move a certain amount of water in a certain amount of time, it really doesn't matter if you hook 1 or 10 hoses up to it, it still moves the same amount of water. The principle is the same with amps and speakers.

 

Those of you who say it's louder, where does the extra energy required to move the extra air come from since you're not actually adding any energy to the circuit? (That's a rhetorical question by the way. Just something to ask yourselves).

[GCDEF]

 

Mr Math here. Assuming that the speaker in your combo is the same as the ones in the 412 (for argument's sake), doubling the number of speakers will net you an additional 4db (about). Double that again with the 412 and you're 8db louder, which is within a hair of twice as loud. Real world conditions may vary.

 

 

I would suggest a refresher Mr. Math. At what point does adding speakers stop adding volume and why? If all it took to add volume was adding speakers, you could run a stadium sized PA with a clock radio.

[IamBurnout]

No, it will not and if you try hook any old 4x12 up to a 1x12 combo the Ohms will likely be wrong and you can kill your amp quite easily if you don't know what you're doing. 20watts powering a 4x12 is a bit silly anyways, you'd want at least 50 minimum as a 4x12 at 20watts is overkill IMO.

 

 

Try a Marshall 18watt head and get back to us when you're done wiping the cum out of your drawers.

[monto]

if it's not been said already... if u can afford one (and find one), simply get a celestion G12 Century (neo) .. NOT the vintage model (because that is only 98dB) but the regular one pictured below is 102dB! and is celestions loudest speaker they make. i actually use one in a 1x12 with a 5W blackstar head, and allows me to jam with my band with very heavy drummer etc and i have more volume than i need (no joke). something like the celestion g12t-75 at 97dB would have no chance (the G12 century neo is not far off TWICE AS LOUD!!) ps. it also has a killer tone, great bass response etc.. not totally unlike a V30, is about 80 watts, and is VERY LIGHTWEIGHT so easy to carry around.... it really is an engineering masterpiece ^_^ ps. put it in a sealed/closed back 1x12 cab.. raise the cab off the floor if not loud enough, etc

 

[cratz2]

Speakers are passive devices. Unless they are more efficient, or unless your existing speaker(s) are nearing their maximum output, adding speakers doesn't more more air and it doesn't add volume.

 

Just to be clear, you are telling us that if you have a given amp, say, DSL50... and you hook that amp to a single EVM 12L... you could hook that same amp up to 16 EVM 12Ls (at the same total load) and it would be the same perceived loudness, assuming all the same amp settings?

 

Are you fucking kidding me?

 

How is it that all the SPL competition vehicles usually have scads of 10" speakers. By your reasoning, a single 10" JL sub would be just as loud as 32 JL 10" subs?

 

Sorry... I'm not buying it. A speakers most efficient use of power is when it's barely getting any power. The speaker is far more efficient at 1W than it is at 200W. Again, by your reasoning, hooking 200 of the same speaker to a 200W amp would yield the same perceived volume as hooking one of those same speakers to the same 200W amp.

 

 

I guess my 18 years of formal math and science have failed me.

 

[Steadfastly]

I would suggest a refresher Mr. Math. At what point does adding speakers stop adding volume and why? If all it took to add volume was adding speakers, you could run a stadium sized PA with a clock radio.

 

Does this mean I should be taking that $8.95 job back to Wal-Mart and get me a real amp?:):poke::)

[tlbonehead]

Sorry... I'm not buying it. A speakers most efficient use of power is when it's barely getting any power. The speaker is far more efficient at 1W than it is at 200W. Again, by your reasoning, hooking 200 of the same speaker to a 200W amp would yield the same perceived volume as hooking one of those same speakers to the same 200W amp. I guess my 18 years of formal math and science have failed me.

c'mon, you can't be serious.

[GCDEF]

Just to be clear, you are telling us that if you have a given amp, say, DSL50... and you hook that amp to a single EVM 12L... you could hook that same amp up to 16 EVM 12Ls (at the same total load) and it would be the same perceived loudness, assuming all the same amp settings? Are you fucking kidding me? How is it that all the SPL competition vehicles usually have scads of 10" speakers. By your reasoning, a single 10" JL sub would be just as loud as 32 JL 10" subs? Sorry... I'm not buying it. A speakers most efficient use of power is when it's barely getting any power. The speaker is far more efficient at 1W than it is at 200W. Again, by your reasoning, hooking 200 of the same speaker to a 200W amp would yield the same perceived volume as hooking one of those same speakers to the same 200W amp. I guess my 18 years of formal math and science have failed me.

 

If the single speaker could handle the power, yes. Speakers lose efficiency as they get close to their maximum output, but it doesn't happen as soon as you think it does. As to why SPL competitions have lots of speakers, the answer is pretty obvious and if you really think that's what I'm saying, then I would agree with your last sentence.

 

Seriously, does anything in your post seem like you're really making a valid argument? 200 speakers on one amp. 32 speakers sounding like 1. Try making some coherent and logical posts.

[tlbonehead]

If the single speaker could handle the power, yes. Speakers lose efficiency as they get close to their maximum output, but it doesn't happen as soon as you think it does. As to why SPL competitions have lots of speakers, the answer is pretty obvious and if you really think that's what I'm saying, then I would agree with your last sentence.

yep, power compression shouldn't really be an issue with a 15 watt amp unless it has a low powered speaker in it. As for the car stereo competition thing, those systems have thousands of watts and the underhood is crammed with boomer/storage caps to hold reserve juice to feed all the amp power.

[Steadfastly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlbonehead

no it isn't.

 

I hate when someone contradicts me and doesn't tell me why! Look at all the extra typing I had to do below to find out why I may be wrong. You may be right. Why do you say so? In my original reply, now, I did think about two 2x12's split and put in different places on a large stage might work in distributing the sound better. Regards, Steadfastly.

 

Hey, tlbonehead, did you miss my question? If you thought I was being a smart alec, I wasn't. I truly would like your opinion on my question. That's how I learn; by picking the brains of you guys with more experience and knowledge. Thanks, Steadfastly.

[cratz2]

But those were just extreme examples that were the continuation of your statement that extra speakers don't add extra volume.

 

I mean... honestly. I think I'm a pretty smart guy. I've taken math up through differential equations. I studied chemistry and physics. I've studied fluid dynamics. I've messed with amps with single speakers, 2 speakers, 3 speakers and 4 speakers. I've built entry level SPL competition and mid level SQ vehicles. I feel like I have my bases covered, pardon the pun. But you guys seem to be suggesting that adding speakers in no way adds any sort of volume capability to a given system.

 

I'm not over the top. I'm not trolling. I just can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that adding identical speakers to a system won't add any volume capability.

 

Maybe I'm an idiot. I'm not trying to be illogical and I AM trying to be coherent. But if adding extra speakers makes ZERO difference, why are amps offered as 1x12s, 2x12s and heads? If a given amp playing through a 1x12 results in exactly the same output as a 2x12 with the same speakers, why would ANY amp manufacturer offer a 1x12 version and a 2x12 version of the same amp, assuming the speakers can handle over double the power the amp puts out.

 

 

Seriously. I respect both of you guys. Have I ever seemed SOOO over the top that you guys honestly think I'm intentionally acting like an idiot?

[GCDEF]

But those were just extreme examples that were the continuation of your statement that extra speakers don't add extra volume. I mean... honestly. I think I'm a pretty smart guy. I've taken math up through differential equations. I studied chemistry and physics. I've studied fluid dynamics. I've messed with amps with single speakers, 2 speakers, 3 speakers and 4 speakers. I've built entry level SPL competition and mid level SQ vehicles. I feel like I have my bases covered, pardon the pun. But you guys seem to be suggesting that adding speakers in no way adds any sort of volume capability to a given system. I'm not over the top. I'm not trolling. I just can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that adding identical speakers to a system won't add any volume capability. Maybe I'm an idiot. I'm not trying to be illogical and I AM trying to be coherent. But if adding extra speakers makes ZERO difference, why are amps offered as 1x12s, 2x12s and heads? If a given amp playing through a 1x12 results in exactly the same output as a 2x12 with the same speakers, why would ANY amp manufacturer offer a 1x12 version and a 2x12 version of the same amp, assuming the speakers can handle over double the power the amp puts out. Seriously. I respect both of you guys. Have I ever seemed SOOO over the top that you guys honestly think I'm intentionally acting like an idiot?

 

I never said it wouldn't sound different, just that it wouldn't sound louder, and I qualified that. If you have a 30 watt amp and a 30 watt speaker, the one speaker is nearing its max SPL and won't get louder no matter how much power you add. In that case, another speaker probably would give you the capacity to get louder. If you were only running the amp at lower volumes or had speakers that weren't approaching the max SPL under normal conditions, you wouldn't see a difference in volume.

 

Different configurations do disperse the sound differently, and the tonal characteristics of different cabinets obviously changes what you hear.

 

I know your brain sees bigger speakers and just thinks it will be louder, but remember, power comes from the amp. Speakers are passive and don't add power or energy to the system, and you don't get energy out of nothing.