I'd like to axe a question about the Fender Super Champ XD

[Bookumdano2]

I asked this in the amp section but I have no idea who those people are. Anyone use this inexpensive little Fender? I've been watching some demos by this guy -

 

 

 

I like quite a bit of what I've heard and I'm trying to figure out if you'd get about the same sound from the Fender's line out into a console ... being that the amp is based on modelling. Probably not eh? I poked around the Fender site and I'm really not even sure at what point in the circuitry they've placed the line out circuit.

[blue2blue]

I wrote a fairly long, quite candid appraisal, but it just seemed so negative. (Provisos: I'm a clean tone guy, for the most part. I do have a POT XT that a pal parked here and I do sometimes find it useful. But I don't enjoy playing through it.)

 

PM me if you want to be talked down off this purchase.

 

 

PS... this thing must be discontinued. I couldn't find it on Fender's site.

 

PPS... one thing that struck me as quite odd, both the ZZounds and Musician's Friend marketing copy on the product pages for the amp went on and on about the (substantially different) 80s version of the amp. MF actually spends more copy on that amp than on the current one.

 

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-Super-Champ-XD-Guitar-Combo-Amp?sku=483075&src=3WWRWXGB&ZYXSEM=0&gclid=CNXMwZ_8gKkCFWcZQgodow1QRw

 

http://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN2331100

[UstadKhanAli]

I suppose you should be able to sound fairly similar, minus the sound of the speaker, obviously. And if it doesn't, at least you know it'll sound like that when it comes through the speaker and is miced.

[Bookumdano2]

bummer. I can't find it now either. It was on Fender's site yesterday. I do still see it this way-

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:G3lShedVsJIJ:www.fender.com/products/search.php%3Fpartno%3D2331100000+fender+%22super+champ+xd%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

 

I've been looking for low watt amps for a while that can do a variety of sounds as an addition to sims and my other bigger amps. Most of the small amps I've heard only have one clean sound and one dirty and that's about it.

 

I may still pick one up since the user demos have been close to what I'm looking for. Besides, these things are pretty inexpensive.

 

What's the biggest gripe blue? Do they fail?

[roomjello]

Why not get a blues Jr?

Great little amp for low volumes and recording in general. Sounds good cranked too.

[blue2blue]

What are these preamp tube problems Fender is on about? I mean, sure, Fender preamps are stupid noisy but I don't see that (apparently) having a solid state front end on this baby makes it any quieter (even in the humbucker vid!) It actually sounds noisier than my Blues Jr in the vids.

 

BTW, that's not a spring 'verb in there, I'm pretty sure, is it? (Although, if it is, and he has it up all through the vids, that would account for the noise. My Bjr isn't too bad -- except that I strongly suspect it already needs recapping after only about a decade as there are some serious intermittent noise issues -- until you turn the reverb up even a little, and then it's hiss city because the geniacs at Fender apparently couldn't be bothered to properly buffer the reverb circuit. )

 

There are some things I definitely like about my Blues Jr but I seriously doubt I will ever buy another Fender amp. They're just a shoddy maker.

[ggm1960]

It all depends on how anal you are about 'your guitar tone man'. Some folks spend a lifetime chasing some holy grail of guitar sound while others, like me, can plug into anything short of an AM radio and be ready to rock in two minutes.

 

I guess it's whatever it takes to inspire you to play your best, I'm just easy, I'd grab that amp just as quickly as I'd grab any other and dial it in to make it work.

[UstadKhanAli]

Particularly for recording but for other applications, having a low wattage amp is truly the way to go, whether you're going for clean or giant-ass gnarly distortion.

[blue2blue]

 

bummer. I can't find it now either. It was on Fender's site yesterday. I do still see it this way- http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:G3lShedVsJIJ:www.fender.com/products/search.php%3Fpartno%3D2331100000+fender+%22super+champ+xd%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com I've been looking for low watt amps for a while that can do a variety of sounds as an addition to sims and my other bigger amps. Most of the small amps I've heard only have one clean sound and one dirty and that's about it. I may still pick one up since the user demos have been close to what I'm looking for. Besides, these things are pretty inexpensive. What's the biggest gripe blue? Do they fail?

 

 

My gripes were about the noise floor and the sound of the Champ XD.

 

(But then thinking about my Blues Jr, yeah, it's really not held up well -- particularly since it's only been out of the house 5, no more than 10 times in the decade or so that I've had it. It's developed all sorts of intemittent hisses and hums. Some of that may be tubes, as slamming your hand on it can sometimes make some of the noise stop. But some of it definitely appears heat related.)

 

With the proviso that I understand what I wrote seems quite negative and curmudgeonly (even to me), I will post my rather blunt former post:

 

[Warning: after re-reading my post, I think you should only read it if you want to be talked down from this thing. ] Sounds really noisy, even with the LP. (Any amp is noisy with a single coil Strat plugged in.) Honest, it sounds like modeling to me with extra noise. That reverb sounds pretty bad to me, it's digital, right? Sure sounds like it when he's working the clean channel. I'm not saying modeling can't be useful, I just don't like the lack of playing variation -- that's a feel thing for me when I'm playing (I have a POD XT here that I use occasionally) but it also seems like the sound of this thing is pretty unvarying from playing dynamics, although it's got a bit of ampy-ness to it that comes out in those little attack envelopes -- but did you notice they're kind of the same until the distortion gets so heavy it just sort of swallows it. I'll admit, I'm sick to death of the typical rock guitar distortion sounds that have so many people falling over themselves trying to sound like everyone else. Which is not to say that I didn't like 'real' distortion -- but the thing I like about it is that when you get an amp set up on the edge of feedback, it's extremely dynamic. But when you get a similar sound with modeling -- it's like a snapshot of that sound. Play hard, it sounds that way. Play soft, it still sounds that way. That's not what I'm looking for. That said, I've noticed some tiny amount of variability and responsiveness from putting a modeled amp through my speakers and turning it way up. And maybe the combination of a modeling front end with an actual tube guitar amp might provide more responsiveness. That said, there's something about sending guitar signal through a digital stage that seems to stop real guitar/playing feedback dead. (And, to be sure, I've definitely tried the POD into my Blues Jr and I was definitely not impressed. Sounded like modeling with extra noise. That Bjr is one noisy little amp.) I say play one and see if you like it for your style of playing. I mean, worst comes to worse, you can just leave the digital stuff turned off (I assume). FWIW, one of my 3DW pals, whose light, jazzy tone use to always kill me gave up his Gibson 225 for a Strat and got one of those little Behringer modeling amps for $150 and loved it. Unfortunately, I hated how he sounded, particularly since it seemed to lead him down the path to buzzy rock distorto sounds that were the antithesis of his strengths. But he loved it.

 

[roomjello]

What are these preamp tube problems Fender is on about? I mean, sure, Fender preamps are stupid noisy but I don't see that (apparently) having a solid state front end on this baby makes it any quieter (even in the humbucker vid!) It actually sounds noisier than my Blues Jr in the vids. BTW, that's not a spring 'verb in there, I'm pretty sure, is it? (Although, if it is, and he has it up all through the vids, that would account for the noise. My Bjr isn't too bad -- except that I strongly suspect it already needs recapping after only about a decade as there are some serious intermittent noise issues -- until you turn the reverb up even a little, and then it's hiss city because the geniacs at Fender apparently couldn't be bothered to properly buffer the reverb circuit. ) There are some things I definitely like about my Blues Jr but I seriously doubt I will ever buy another Fender amp. They're just a shoddy maker.

 

There is a fix for Bl jrs where you have to separate one of the multi wire things in the back, stops weird noises in the amp, i'll try to find it for you....

[Lee Knight]

If that amp has the tone you want, sounds like your amp. Your question about the line out though... I looked at the manual and it does not state whether they've used some sort of speaker emulation on its output. That's the key, and they're not telling. I'd call up Fender or email and ask one who knows for sure.

 

I'm thinking you're not going to like that line out if they haven't used some sort of speaker emulation.

[blue2blue]

It all depends on how anal you are about 'your guitar tone man'. Some folks spend a lifetime chasing some holy grail of guitar sound while others, like me, can plug into anything short of an AM radio and be ready to rock in two minutes. I guess it's whatever it takes to inspire you to play your best, perhaps I'm just easy or a simpleton but I'd grab that amp to use just as quickly as I'd grab any other.

Yeah... you know, for quickly dialing up a bunch of different tones, modeling can be a heavensent, no question. Some of the new "sounds" that a lot of folks line up to get are a bit beyond my immediate ken as to what all goes into them. That said, I mostly don't like them and don't typically have much reason to want to use them.

 

That said, I did just use the POD XT I have here for some guitar accompaniment on my latest track. I can't say I enjoyed cutting it -- I didn't... it was like playing a dead fish -- but it did fill the hole in the track with a useful sound and I did find myself thinking, wow, that doesn't sound like me -- except for what I'm playing. So maybe that's a good thing.

 

I'll admit, I have sort of ex-girlfriend feelings about Fender. I love the Stratocaster and some of their other guitar designs -- and I really like the basic sound of my Blues Jr. But their guitars are shoddily made. It was one thing when they were relatively cheap. But now that they've pushed up their prices, it sort of offends me. And, if I had the money, I'd probably send my Blues Jr to a good amp guy for a complete rebuild and have him address the incompetent reverb insertion as well.

 

 

The fact that you complain about the small amps you've seen only having a couple sounds does make me think that a modeling amp solution might be a good thing for you.

 

See, for me, with small amps, I tend to think of them as having a range of a given sound, in a sense, since the guitar knob interrelationship combined with playing dynamics, combined with amp volume, combined with tone control (if any) usually gives me what I'm looking for. Except for the reverb issue. When I want reverb, I really want reverb... and there's no spring sim I've heard that really gets it. I have been amused by those little stomp boxes with a real spring in them... they're better than the digital stuff I've heard. The 'verb thing is how I ended up with the Blues Jr. Unfortunately, it was a Guitar Center where I was testing it out and I didn't realize just how noisy the spring circuit was at low volume. (Turn up the overall amp volume and most of the 'verb noise stays relatively low. But that level is far above my comfort zone -- and especially that of my neighbors.)

[blue2blue]

 

There is a fix for Bl jrs where you have to separate one of the multi wire things in the back, stops weird noises in the amp, i'll try to find it for you....

 

Ah! That would be a real kindness. But I'm afraid a lot of it's just cheap components decaying.

 

Still, it sounds like what you're talking about is more like a design fix/hack, so if it's the reverb circuit hiss issue (fingers crossed here) that seems like it would be a heavensent.

[roomjello]

Blue....

http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=115

http://machrone.home.comcast.net/~machrone/bjr/oscillate.htm

[roomjello]

 

Ah ! That would be a real kindness. But I'm afraid a lot of it's just cheap components decaying. Still, it sounds like what you're talking about is more like a design fix/hack, so if it's the reverb circuit hiss issue (fingers crossed here) that seems like it would be a heavensent.

 

 

Maybe, but check out the links.

[blue2blue]

 

If that amp has the tone you want, sounds like your amp. Your question about the line out though... I looked at the manual and it does not state whether they've used some sort of speaker emulation on its output. That's the key, and they're not telling. I'd call up Fender or email and ask one who knows for sure. I'm thinking you're not going to like that line out if they haven't used some sort of speaker emulation.

 

 

I certainly haven't tried all the speaker emulation stuff out there (by a long, long shot) but my own (unsatisfied) feelings about the stuff I have used (and I have a Lexicon Signature 284 low power 'recording amp' with a dedicated speaker emulation output) seem to be largely echoed by other frustrated recording solution-seekers I've read comments from about other systems. (The Lex is an interesting unit... sounds pretty good into a decent cabinet but it doesn't have the spank of the Blues Jr, even though it's overall quite flexible.)

[Lee Knight]

 

I certainly haven't tried all the speaker emulation stuff out there (by a long, long shot) but my own (unsatisfied) feelings about the stuff I have used (and I have a Lexicon Signature 284 low power 'recording amp' with a dedicated speaker emulation output) seem to be largely echoed by other frustrated recording solution-seekers I've read comments from about other systems. (The Lex is an interesting unit... sounds pretty good into a decent cabinet but it doesn't have the spank of the Blues Jr, even though it's overall quite flexible.)

 

 

Well sure.. but we do all have different needs and paradigms. I mix software emulation with real amps all the time. And I'm not telling which is which. Neither are the listeners cause they can't tell. Not popular to say, but true. If you treat it well. Pedals going in helps. But the point being, if those are the sounds that float the boat...

 

...specs matter less and less. If he needs it he needs it. The real question is will he get what he's hearing that he likes when he goes direct out?

[blue2blue]

 

Blue.... http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=115 http://machrone.home.comcast.net/~machrone/bjr/oscillate.htm

Ah... great! I'll have to poke around and see what I find.

 

I have the original green board model.

 

I see that he's really on these issues. A great resource. I think I'm going to have to give some serious attention to this!

Thanks a million!

 

PS... I wonder if this is the same Bill Machrone who used to be a PC Mag editor? [update: still is; and that BM does have an article there on turning your guitar into a USB guitar so... maybe so.]

[ggm1960]

 

I'll admit, I have sort of ex-girlfriend feelings about Fender. I love the Stratocaster and some of their other guitar designs -- and I really like the basic sound of my Blues Jr. But their guitars are shoddily made. It was one thing when they were relatively cheap. But now that they've pushed up their prices, it sort of offends me. And, if I had the money, I'd probably send my Blues Jr to a good amp guy for a complete rebuild and have him address the incompetent reverb insertion as well.

 

Fender amps have been crap for a long time. The '78 Twin Reverb I still have is one I traded a Les Paul Custom for back in the mid 80's (as stupid as that sounds I'd bought the guitar for $200 and already had my Goldtop). It could have never worked out of the factory as I later discovered when I began repairing electronics that the Normal input side didn't have a wire connecting from the component solder strip to the preamp tube. There were also a couple other missing wires in that area.

As for the guitars, I've always really liked the am std Tele I bought new in '96 except for the pickup selector knob that always fell off. I've had a couple of mexi-strats I didn't much like but the new am std strat I bought a couple years ago is a fantastic guitar. I'll always be a Gibson man however.

[ggm1960]

 

Neither are the listeners cause they can't tell. Not popular to say, but true.

 

 

Hear ye, hear ye!

[blue2blue]

 

Well sure.. but we do all have different needs and paradigms. I mix software emulation with real amps all the time. And I'm not telling which is which. Neither are the listeners cause they can't tell. Not popular to say, but true. If you treat it well. Pedals going in helps. But the point being, if those are the sounds that float the boat... ...specs matter less and less. If he needs it he needs it. The real question is will he get what he's hearing that he likes when he goes direct out?

Well, in terms of recording production, my feeling about amp sims is much like my feeling about vocal retuning -- it it works without me (the audience) being aware of it, then it works, and that's great. I don't really care how it got there.

 

But that said, just as with retuning, it appears that many engineers think they're flying their tech-fixes under the radar. They may fancy that no one hears the fix, but some of us really do. That said, the sound of an amp sim does not grate on my ear and cause actual discomfort in the same fashion that vocal retuning artifacts do. And, perhaps even more crucially, once you get a bunch of FX on a guitar, it all kind of has the same effect on me. (Typically manifesting as an impulse to change the station/channel/skip.)

 

But that said... most of the time I'm playing guitar is because I enjoy playing guitar.

 

And I really don't enjoy playing into sims (the POD XT is the only sim I can play live into because the ~8 ms audio round trip on my computer rig is just way too long; the POD latency is uncomfortable; but through-the-box is undoable). [i do have Guitar Rig 4 but it's really crashy on my system -- it can hang Sonar and has, causing me to lose work -- so I reluctantly removed it, although I did find it useful for 'reamping' -- particularly in the case of 'vintage' keyboard VIs.]

 

And, actually, in the 5 years or so I've had this thing (the POD) over here, I've only pulled it out about 5 times and used it on two recordings -- and both of those started because it was a hot spell and I did not want to turn on the Bjr, which runs hot (gotta investigate the bias mod from Bill Machrone!) and, of course, has to have a certain volume to get acceptable tone (and since I don't have AC, in a hot spell, most of my windows are open and my neighbors are literally pretty much spitting distance). So, I've been glad to have it -- but it's simply not any fun to play.

 

But, as noted, we are all, each and every one of us, different -- or could be. And certainly, my approach is much different than most folks, particularly rockers.

[Bookumdano2]

In roaming around some mod sites, looks like all the XD presets and front panel amp settings feed the line out and then from there, travel to the three tubes and speaker. I guess, at the line out point, I'd have a big 16-preset sim.

 

Looks like there are also mods for a simple line in to bypass the digital area to only use the pre and power tubes with external pods etc.

[blue2blue]

I could be mistaken, but I got the impression from reading the marketing copy that that Champ XD has a solid state preamp. So, basically, if that's correct, the line out would be a lot like using an amp sim box or pedal.

 

And that solid state preamp stage would help account for the relatively low list price.

 

 

Speaking of mods, I poked around the Bill Machrone site some more and it looks like a great resource -- but I have to say that I was a bit nonplussed listening to the (rather informal) comparisons between un-modded Bjr's and Bjr's in various stages of modding. While there were differences, I can't really say that I liked the mods any better than the original.

[D Charles]

I've got the Vibro Champ XD which is the same thing but with just one 6v6 tube. Yes the reverb is digital but I like it, not as warm as a spring, but still okay. This thing hums when you turn it on. It becomes not really noticeable once you start playing, but really bothers me. The line out sounds just like the amp to me (with no hum surprisingly) but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the tubes. I think it sounds worlds better than the Pod XT I just sold. I put a JBL speaker in mine which seems to help it's tone quite a bit. Oh, I spent all afternoon once trying to dial this thing in to sound like my old black face Vibro Champ from the 60's. I got it really close but had to dial the treble almost all the way up and bass all the way down or vice versa. For a frame of reference, I usually run treble 7 and bass around 4 on Fenders and Boogies (mid around 8 if available and presence off). No scooped crap for me. I'm thinking I had to floor the bass on the XD to get it into the ballpark of the 60's Champ.

[WRGKMC]

For recording direct, I been using one of these lately. http://cgi.ebay.com/ART-SGX-2000-Multi-Effects-Processor-Pitch-Delay-Reverb-/310321010014?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D230601452233%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D176603834017312492

 

Its a much better solution then using an amps line out which sounds super cheezy in comparison.

Besides a complete arsonal of stereo effects its got a tube preamp that can be selected.

You can tweak every parameter of every effect and get tones from the cleanest strat tone to

the heaviest metal guitar. If you check out the picture of the back, you have two loops, one mono one stereo

for additional effects or drive boxes. you can for example loop your favorite tube screamer and use it as a drive

pedal. Its got midi connections for a foot controller, low impedince sends, and bypassing.

 

The technology is a bit older, but I have about 6 of these kinds of preamp efeects units collected now and can get any tones I need.

Sound quality is better than any plugins I've used and its got knobs and programable settings to tweak things in. Built in speaker emulation as well so it doesnt sound harsh like a line out on an amp does. Its a good versitile solution if you dont have a sound proofed room to mic an amp. You dont have the latency issues you would have recording with an amp sim either.

 

When I use the units, I monitor its output through mu recording monitors and tweak the exact tone I want recorded. the mostI may have to do mixing is adjust levels and do some mino EQing to tweak things to fit the mix. I also have the benifit of using the units live either connected to the front end of my amps or driving a stereo power amp. I do need to snag the midi pedal for it but Its not a priority at the moment.

 

I do have other rack units like Digitec, Yamaha, Boss and others which do simular things. All have their own personalities and tones. I picked all of them up used for under $100 as they came along. I still record amps live of course, but its a hell of alot easier to dub parts in with one of these type of units then to go through the hassel of cranking up the amps and dialing up the tones and all, plus you have the variety of tones you can select and edit that would take hours trying to get from a live rig. Rack units arent the do all be all, but thay surely widen the possibilities.