Members nat whilk II Posted June 2, 2011 Members Share Posted June 2, 2011 Please suffer this ignoramus to pipe up with a question: would then heavier gauge strings also tamp down transients on an electric? Can't get much earlier in the signal path than the string... nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 I've noticed transients affecting tone as well. Now, I'm not sure if we're discussing the same thing, but can't something as simple as a compressor or one of those transient shapers help out an amp sim (or for that matter, a "spikey" recording of an amp?). Yeah, I would think so too... and as Lee said it's gotta be hardware before it hits the converter. IMO there's really no such thing as a digital comp/limiter because these are truly analog processes. Something analog has to tame the signal pre-conversion. I've always used a comp with electric guitar long before digital was an issue though. A really simple one too. Anyone remember the original MXR Dyna Comp? Wish I still had it. It was simple and it worked. A front-end can get overloaded and cause clipping whether its analog or digital, but yeah an overloaded DAC is especially harsh of course. Hideous is not too strong a word to describe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zooey Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Transients that are faster than the attack time or lower than the threshold pass right through the compressor. If you believe that the guitar signal is being clouded by non-obvious microtransients that barely register on your meters, I guess you would have to use your fastest attack time to catch them. Should you see any gain reduction on the meters? I don't know. The meters on any hardware compressor are bound to be even more sluggish than the meters on your DAW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Transients that are faster than the attack time or lower than the threshold pass right through the compressor. If you believe that the guitar signal is being clouded by non-obvious microtransients that barely register on your meters, I guess you would have to use your fastest attack time to catch them. I should have been more specific as to why they don't register. If they're averaging meters, it's an issue. Meters that have a true, fast peak detector will show the transients. Again, I'll be doing testing, but don't have answers yet...just a few isolated examples with certain sims that point in certain directions. I'm not sure a compressor or limiter before the sim is always going to be the answer. It can help if the transients aren't too serious, but based on what I was seeing in Wavelab, with the right combination of pick, strings, playing style, pickups, and pickup height, we're talking seriously loud transients that have nothing to do with the string's melodic nature - these are pure noise, and they don't seem to make limiters happy, either. The solution will likely be a passive clamp to cut transients. Don't know if diodes will be fast enough due to junction capacitance; if not, I'm going to look into varistors. Don't know if they go low enough in terms of voltage, though. Another possibility would be a transformer, or inductance in series with the guitar output...I dunno, ferrite beads? I still have a lot to learn about this, but it's not all as it seems, and there are a large number of variables I have to quantify before I can feel I really understand what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Sounds like you're describing pick noise or fret slap from the strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roomjello Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 The solution will likely be a passive clamp to cut transients. Don't know if diodes will be fast enough due to junction capacitance; if not, I'm going to look into varistors. Don't know if they go low enough in terms of voltage, though. Another possibility would be a transformer, or inductance in series with the guitar output...I dunno, ferrite beads? I hope you get it happening, i would erase this thread asap if i were you and serious about doing it.No doubt someone else with more time, and resources will be on it right now and make all your $.Btw, something like this has been needed for a while, i'm surprised it hasn't been done years ago, maybe it has. A Roland space echo dating 1970's for example needs high input to get up over the noise floor, but you can far too easily pin it into distortion on guitar if you play like a man or Lee flier. A compressor isn't the answer.In today's market we need a clipping type thing to tame those spikes for di gtr more than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Sounds like you're describing pick noise or fret slap from the strings. Exactly. That's why the harmonics are so nasty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 I'm not sure a compressor or limiter before the sim is always going to be the answer. It can help if the transients aren't too serious, but based on what I was seeing in Wavelab, with the right combination of pick, strings, playing style, pickups, and pickup height, we're talking seriously loud transients that have nothing to do with the string's melodic nature - these are pure noise, and they don't seem to make limiters happy, either. The solution will likely be a passive clamp to cut transients. Don't know if diodes will be fast enough due to junction capacitance; if not, I'm going to look into varistors. Don't know if they go low enough in terms of voltage, though. Another possibility would be a transformer, or inductance in series with the guitar output...I dunno, ferrite beads?I still have a lot to learn about this, but it's not all as it seems, and there are a large number of variables I have to quantify before I can feel I really understand what's going on. So you're talking about some sort of signal pre-conditioner for DI guitars that will get rid of the transients. Awesome idea! And long overdue. Obviously, the more it does its thing the same way an amp does, the better. Like Ken mentioned, the tube pre in the Vox ToneLab makes a big difference in terms of how well the ToneLab works vs. other modellers, and that may well have a lot to do with the tube shaving off nasty transients. I'd also take a look at Tech 21's stuff. They use analog circuitry and, for my money, I like the way their stuff sounds better than any other DI stuff, certainly anything that claims to be an amp "modeller." Maybe they have addressed this problem, whether by design or happy accident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 3, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Like Ken mentioned, the tube pre in the Vox ToneLab makes a big difference in terms of how well the ToneLab works vs. other modellers, and that may well have a lot to do with the tube shaving off nasty transients. At least...that's my guess!! Seriously, I've never once had problems with transients, transients changing the tone, etc. with the Vox. And I play clean a lot as well as with distortion, sometimes tons of distortion, and never had a problem with it even when going DI. Maybe at some point I'll experiment around again and see if I can make it do something weird with the transients when going DI, as I have admittedly only gone DI a small amount of times. If you own a Carr Rambler, as I'm fortunate enough to have, you just don't wanna go DI much!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Another thought - it's interesting that bass players have been willing to go DI for years and seem happy with the sound for recording in most cases, not to mention it seems easier to please a bassist with modelling stuff than most guitarists. I wonder if this is actually a very old problem and the reason is because bass has fewer transients - i.e. the fundamental tone generally overwhelms any pick noise etc., unlike with guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Maybe at some point I'll experiment around again and see if I can make it do something weird with the transients when going DI, as I have admittedly only gone DI a small amount of times. If you own a Carr Rambler, as I'm fortunate enough to have, you just don't wanna go DI much!!!! Oh, well yeah. I personally don't go DI much at all, as I obviously have several nice tube amps and I don't much like the sound of DI guitar, modellers and all that. I'd be happy to change my mind if someone came out with something that sounded good to me, and maybe this transient problem is a big part of the reason why it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 3, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 3, 2011 Another thought - it's interesting that bass players have been willing to go DI for years and seem happy with the sound for recording in most cases, not to mention it seems easier to please a bassist with modelling stuff than most guitarists. I wonder if this is actually a very old problem and the reason is because bass has fewer transients - i.e. the fundamental tone generally overwhelms any pick noise etc., unlike with guitar? Absolutely. The transient control tends to come from a bassist's two fingers. Why do you think pick players tend to favor studio amps? Some pick bassists can go direct. They tend to be the one's who have very good control of that pick/string/palm marriage.But guitar? So much of it is in the interplay, like the bass pick/string/palm, but rather, "pick/string/pedal/tube front end/tone stack/power amp saturation/speaker sag/air movement/room effects" marriage. It's like an orgy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 So you're talking about some sort of signal pre-conditioner for DI guitars that will get rid of the transients. Awesome idea! And long overdue. Obviously, the more it does its thing the same way an amp does, the better. I've studied tubes a lot in my life, and used them in live performance exclusively for 10 years, so I'm pretty sure I know what that input stage is doing...and I think I just put two and two together. But, I won't know for sure until I get out the soldering iron. Theory sometimes doesn't always get along with practice I'm not talking the same kind of thing as MOTU's ZBox, although that comes closest. I'm not trying to be evasive here, I just don't want to say something and then end up totally embarrassed because it actually sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Another thought - it's interesting that bass players have been willing to go DI for years and seem happy with the sound for recording in most cases, not to mention it seems easier to please a bassist with modelling stuff than most guitarists. Interesting you should say that. I did a roundup for EQ on bass sims and it struck me that it took a lot less work to get a satisfying bass sound with sims than to do the equivalent with guitar. I think a lot of it is that bass doesn't rely on distortion so much, and that's where guitar sims run into problems with both the technology, and people's expectations of the sound. Bassists generally expect a cleaner sound, so the sims' ability to create clean sounds meets expectations. When bassists do add a bit of "growl," it's easier as the harmonics don't really go up that high, and they tend to use a lot less distortion than guitarists. As to where the transient thing comes into play, I think you're right - so much of the time bass lines are monophonic. So even if there is a massive transient, it's not intermodulating with some other transient. I'm beginning to think that the intermodulation products are what cause the really nasty non-harmonic sound with sim attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Oh, well yeah. I personally don't go DI much at all, as I obviously have several nice tube amps and I don't much like the sound of DI guitar, modellers and all that. I'd be happy to change my mind if someone came out with something that sounded good to me, and maybe this transient problem is a big part of the reason why it doesn't. I think that's a big part of it once it gets past the input, but another part is that DI's really have nothing to do with a tube input stage. Designers look at a tube and go "Well, it has a really high impedance, so if a DI has a really high impedance, we're good to go!" But the reality is that there's stuff between the input jack and the tube grid, mostly resistance to ground that does add some loading but also capacitance to some degree or another. It's not like a solid-state amp kind of loading, but still, is enough to take off some of the "edge" and give a sweeter sound. Couple that with the way the grid affects the signal, and the Miller effect itself inside the tube, and you have a dynamically-changing (that's they key) lowpass filter whereas a DI is just a static high-impedance input. What I'm hoping is that it's possible to create something that doesn't necessarily emulate a tube, but allows sims to work in a more musical manner. The next step would be to come up with a dynamically-controlled input stage on purpose. Just like an opto-isolator is a "happy accident" in terms of having the right characteristics for a compressor, a tube is a "happy accident" in terms of presenting the right kind of characteristics for a guitar. But, maybe there's something beyond the happy accident where the qualities that a tube brings could actually be improved upon? Sort of an idealized tube that couldn't exist in the real world? I dunno...or maybe tubes are already, through a very happy accident, perfect for the task. In either case, it would be fun to find out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted June 4, 2011 Members Share Posted June 4, 2011 Please suffer this ignoramus to pipe up with a question: would then heavier gauge strings also tamp down transients on an electric? Can't get much earlier in the signal path than the string...nat whilk ii I would imagine they'd increase the output level a bit, but their longer vibration time would give a note a much longer decay. That would increase the RMS level, while leaving the peak level relatively unaffected, resulting in a lower peak-to-RMS ratio. I think... The only trick with thicker strings is to set up the neck so it's painless to play - - I hate when a stiff guitar makes my various tunnel syndromes (carpal & cubital) flare up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted June 5, 2011 Members Share Posted June 5, 2011 Exactly. That's why the harmonics are so nasty! You might have setup issues. Backing off the pups is only a partial fix. Recording digitally theres practically no margin for error in an instruments setup and an electronic tuner is only a guide to getting a guitar setup right. It doesnt tell the whole story if you string height is off, relief is off, pickup height is off, string tension is wrong, or the the string harmonics are correct. Electronic tuners are only a guide to getting a guitar setup properly. I by no means assume you cannot use your own methods of getting an instrument setup. I own about 25 guitars and Every one of them need mild tweaking prior to recording. I can plug any of them into a tuner and they would be fine live use but recording, the slightest variance cause by string temp, or neck movement can make or break a recording. The ideal sound is that Kerrang of all the strings sounding like a single note, and having every note on the neck feel great. Heres a few tips. I dont know if anyone needs them. First use a pair of headphones and pump your clean guitar through them. Use an EQ with a mid bump if needed to make any beating of the strings extremely apparent. Pickup height is important first off. Strum an even chord, and adjust them so theres equal highs an lows output. Using a VU meter to view the output can help. Be sure to get the same Karrang on an up stroke as well as a down stroke strumming open chords . Next take each string above the neck pup, pull it straight up with your thumb and first finger, and let it go like you would to get a slap bass sound. Be sitting upright in the playing position, this is exteremely important. This is done to identify string twang sharp or flat off the last fret. You can intonate the last fret flat amd open string using a tuner here. If the intonations on then you only have height and relief to work with to get all six to sound right. If a string twangs sharp, its too high. If it buzzes, its too low. Next, abandon the tuner and check harmonics against the other frets. You can use a keyboard and take the EBGDAE keys with some paper between the keys to hold all 6 notes down at the same time. Its god awful to listen to, but its nessasary. Single notes wont get you there using a tuner. Tune the open strings so theres no beating. Then use the 12th, 5th, 7th, 17th and 19th string harmonics vs the fretted notes listen for beating while the keyboard notes are going at the same time. Instead of using single notes, use three strings at a time arpeggio. Its important because A barre chord will not have the same tension on the neck as a single note does. If you intonate using single notes using a tuner, chances are you'll have sharp notes all over the place playing chords. Using three strings depressed at once is hald way between a single note and barre chord. Use the 654 string harmonics, then use the 12th fret 654 fretted strings and listen for the one sharp and flat notes out of the three. Make mild intonation corrections. Do not attempt to make full correction bringing the notes dead into intonation. This again is a critical. The key is to keep tension on the truss and strings at all times. You need to eak all 6 strings in gradually. Bringing one string slightly flatter will bring others slightly sharp. Do the same for the 543, 432.321 until you no longer hear any sharp or flat notes. Use the tuner to tune to pitch and repeat this process. Next would be to tune to pitch and compare all root chords to the same chords played at the 12th fret with the same open strings as a guide. Getting both to sound good requires compensation in height and intonation. Lastly, String height and fret slap will determine the maximum volume you can get from a string. If a string is too low its output will be muted by the frets. Too high and it will lack limitation and twang sharp. You should be able to use maximum pick slam on both up and down strokes on a chord and have no strings twanging sharp, have equal output from all strings, and have the same for any fret on the neck. Again, Hope I didnt bore you all to death here. Even the best guitars made are tempered. Batteling that stress to get the best tone possible is always going to be a determining factor of getting them to sound good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Extreme Mixing Posted June 5, 2011 Members Share Posted June 5, 2011 WRGKMC, You just took all the fun out of Guitar for me. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted June 5, 2011 Members Share Posted June 5, 2011 WRGKMC,You just took all the fun out of Guitar for me.Steve Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 5, 2011 I'm just hopin' my guitar stays in tune!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted June 5, 2011 Members Share Posted June 5, 2011 You might have setup issues. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but if that were the problem, it would be apparent with a close miked amp as well as with an amp sim. Craig is specifically talking about artifacts that arise with DI recording and amp sims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted June 5, 2011 Members Share Posted June 5, 2011 You might have setup issues. I can guarantee there are no setup issues, but I'm glad you thought there might be, because there was a lot of useful info in that post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 5, 2011 Forgive me for stating the obvious, but if that were the problem, it would be apparent with a close miked amp as well as with an amp sim. Craig is specifically talking about artifacts that arise with DI recording and amp sims. Doesn't this make you wonder how many other instruments or recordings have trouble with artifacts that arise from converters? Acoustic guitars into a converter? Percussion, including cymbals? Distortion from vocals (exacerbating sibilance? Plosives?)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted June 5, 2011 Members Share Posted June 5, 2011 Doesn't this make you wonder how many other instruments or recordings have trouble with artifacts that arise from converters? Acoustic guitars into a converter? Percussion, including cymbals? Distortion from vocals (exacerbating sibilance? Plosives?)? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted June 5, 2011 Members Share Posted June 5, 2011 Doesn't this make you wonder how many other instruments or recordings have trouble with artifacts that arise from converters? Acoustic guitars into a converter? Percussion, including cymbals? Distortion from vocals (exacerbating sibilance? Plosives?)? Well, I don't have to wonder - I've heard it. It's one of the reasons I still much prefer to track to analog tape. It really does seem like even if you're going to transfer to digital later, doing whatever you have to do on the front end to get rid of those really radical transients before they hit a converter makes a world of difference. And that is why as I mentioned earlier, I nowadays run just about everything at least through a hardware compressor when recording straight to digital.... or use a ribbon mic... or something. I just never really thought about it in the context of DI'd electric guitar and using amp sims as opposed to miked amps - because I almost never use amp sims or go DI with guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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