She could have been so much more. RIP, Amy Winehouse, 1983 - 2011

[roomjello]

 

Weird how you all ended up bickering over her death.

 

 

Ahh but is it really, or is it exactly right on?

We argue when we are not sure of things, afraid, uninformed, otherwise we live in peace.

[tonaldeath]

Worst news I've heard in a very long time. I haven't stopped thinking about it for the past 4 days. She was one of the only artists from my generation that actually inspired me; I think of her every time I open my mouth to sing. Always wished she would get her life back on track and start releasing more material. More than just a vocalist, she was a brilliant songwriter as well. I'm really shaken up over this. {censored}ing terrible. I think she will become a legend on the same level as Janis in the years to come. I really do. It's sad to think that she'll never know it.

[blue2blue]

Weird how you all ended up bickering over her death.

Yes... and no.

 

I think everyone has strong feelings about this stuff.

 

It may be weirder to bicker about the definition of disease when, as far as I can tell, none of us are medical professionals. But it is rather absurd, it seems to me, to suggest that classifying something that fits the medical criteria of a disease as a disease in any way negates the role of personal responsibility when that disease has causal roots in lifestyle and personal choices. By urca's definition, adult diabetes is not a disease. If not, what is it?

 

Perhaps it would help if we were to call it a disease of choice, or some such. Honestly, I don't see the point of trying to argue about medical definitions when none of us are physicians or medical experts and the medical community -- comprised of expert scientists and treatment professionals has already wrestled with these issues at length and come to a definition.

 

For me the important point in that discussion is that defining addiction as a disease in no way absolves the individual of responsibility for his actions -- or the consequences of those actions.

 

I have no desire to go easier on people who engage in criminal behavior to support a habit or who hurt innocent people (or themselves) because they drove while drunk or otherwise impaired.

 

(And I'm horrified by my own memories of driving drunk, although I was lucky enough that I never got in a situation where that drunkeness led me to crash my car or motorcycle or hurt anyone. I did, however, drop my motorcycle against a neighbor's car late one night while drunkenly trying to get it up on its center stand. I thought it cost a pretty penny at the time -- considering it was a silver dollar sized dimple in the door of an old car -- but I made sure to leave him a note and make sure that he'd seen it. He had a right to have his car the way it had been earlier that day.)

 

I guess what I find frustrating is the sense I get that urca and perhaps others continue to think that those who classify addiction as disease have some sort of agenda of mollycoddling or excusing self-destructive behavior in others, whether strangers or loved ones -- and that's frustrating because I believe that I and others have been quite explicit in suggesting otherwise.

 

Classifying addiction as a disease -- because it fits the profile of disease as medical experts have come to define disease -- seems to me simply being realistic. It's not an excuse for the choices that led one into the disease or the behaviors that cause the disease to progress. It's simply an attempt to address reality in an objective, common sense manner.

 

If urca or others want to make moral judgements of others, as they seem wont to do, it seems they are still free to make those judgments with regard to the contributing choices and behaviors. The classification of the health results of those choices and behaviors as disease has no moral dimension, one way or the other, to my thinking. It is, let's say, morality neutral.

 

Also, lay people, without the professional background and knowledge of a given field should probably be trepidatious when staking a position directly at odds with the consensus of deeply trained and knowledgeable professionals working in that field.

 

But some people apparently believe they are know more than anyone else, I guess. Perhaps there is no point in trying to use common sense to demonstrate the foolishness of that course of belief -- since someone so mentally constituted may simply be beyond reach of facts and common sense.

[Vito Corleone]

[ Calling this self induced state a disease is wrong to me. It is a self induced chemical dependence.

 

 

I disagree. The predisposition for this state is pre-existing and it is THAT state that is the disease. Amy Winehouse likely started out drinking no more than the rest of us do. But the alcoholics I've known are people who often just can't stop drinking until they pass out. Or can't get through the day without a few drinks in their system. My brain/body doesn't do that to me. Because I don't have that disease.

 

 

Calling it a disease is the easy way out IMO.

 

 

I don't think anyone who calls it a disease has it any easier than those who don't. The easy way out of WHAT? WHAT is gained for them by taking this "easy" route?

[Vito Corleone]

I just disagree with calling it a disease.

 

 

At some point it just becomes a matter of semantics. Like saying "I'm fine with gays having legal unions that are EXACTLY LIKE a "marriage" in every way, shape and form---I just don't think they should call it a "marriage".

[blue2blue]

Worst news I've heard in a very long time. I haven't stopped thinking about it for the past 4 days. She was one of the only artists from my generation that actually inspired me; I think of her every time I open my mouth to sing. Always wished she would get her life back on track and start releasing more material. More than just a vocalist, she was a brilliant songwriter as well. I'm really shaken up over this. {censored}ing terrible. I think she will become a legend on the same level as Janis in the years to come. I really do. It's sad to think that she'll never know it.

That's how the news affected me on an artistic/musical level, as well. To me, there was an honesty, genuineness, and directness in her work often lacking in other, highly packaged musical personae, who, like Britney Spears and scores of other artists and bands, seem the carefully tinkered product of corporate efforts.

[Vito Corleone]

That's how the news affected me on an artistic/musical level, as well. To me, there was an honesty, genuineness, and directness in her work often lacking in other, highly packaged musical personae, who, like Britney Spears and scores of other artists and bands, seem the carefully tinkered product of corporate efforts.

 

I agree.

 

Now if only someone would remix "Back to Black" and remove all the horrible brickwalling that makes it so difficult for me to enjoy listening to.

[nat whilk II]

The idea that some things operate under the laws of physical causality and other things operate in a mental or spiritual world with different rules is, IMHO, a hopelessly confused idea. The concept of physical cause comes from one form of common sense that evolved into science. The concept of mental cause comes from the ancient background we all share in religious/spiritual ideas - where disembodied entities operate in a realm free of physical cause/effect - the old mental "ghost in the machine".

This dualistic way of looking at the world we all take for granted and don't feel the disconnect most of the time, as we're all fish in the same pool. But it comes up all the time - the worried mother asks the doctor, "Is my son's misbehaviour a matter of his mental state and of his choices? Or is there it just a chemical thing that can be treated with a dose of some other chemical?"

The mental/spiritual paradigm harbors and protects some extremely important concepts most of us can't live without - concepts such as free will, choice, responsibility, the human person, the soul. The scientific/causal paradigm has no special loyalty to these concepts at all - people can use these older ideas as long as science does not have some physical/causal explanation that trumps the old concepts. And science is always making inroads into the realm of the mental/spiritual, by finding physical causes that explain what used to be considered a matter of mental/spiritual dynamics.

As far as the scientific state of mind goes, Schopenhauer I think it was who said, "Casuality is not a taxi you can get in and out of anytime you like" - I could have the name and the quote wrong, but I still like the way it's put:)

The tension between the two worldviews we can see all the time - where people opt for magical/mystical explanations in the face of scientific evidence, and people of the scientific bent write off all the old mental/spiritual paradigms as laughable nonsense. At the radical extremes, you get evil eugenicists or you get people who refuse medical treatment on spiritual principles. People don't like tension, but I think it's inevitable.

It seems self-evident to me that there are not two separate modes of existence that are free from the other realm's rules. But this does not necessarily mean I have to opt for one or the other in it's current state and reject the other. Personally I think that both paradigms will fade in time, and some third configuration of concepts will seize the day. It's been a long time since discoveries in physics started to undermine the old hardcore concepts of physical causality - although most of the other scientific disciplines still operate fundamentally on the assumption of discrete, physical causality. It's all in slow evolution.

So I don't accept the ghost or the machine as sufficient metaphors for describing how reality works, but I can't outright reject either in total. My convictions along these lines are more negative than positive - in other words, I'm pretty secure in my rejection of certain paradigms as absolutes, but I don't have a handy-dandy one-explanation-fits-all alternative just yet (ha). I get what wisdom I can out of the old mental/spiritual paradigm, and what accurate information I can out of the physical/causal paradigm. It's a muddle, no mistake...

nat whilk ii

[Jeff da Weasel]

An interesting thought question that you can feel free to answer:

 

Is depression a disease? All people need to do to fight it is be happy, right? Discuss.

[blue2blue]

 

An interesting thought question that you can feel free to answer: Is depression a disease? All people need to do to fight it is be happy, right? Discuss.

 

I think depression is more what would typically be considered a syndrome. Something that fits the qualifications of a given syndrome may actually have cause in multiple sources. As a consequence, of course, the definitional parameters of any given syndrome are probably subject to change.

 

But from my reading, I think it's clear that there are often physical conditions which are precursors to depression -- but other forms of depression may well be triggered by events.

 

If one loses a loved one or a job or career -- many people's sense of self-worth can be tied tightly to their career -- or a series of losses or emotional trauma -- or has a profoundly upsetting experience or set of experiences the very predictable and understandable sorrow and sadness may deepen into conditions that fall under depression or what is often these days called post traumatic shock disorder.

 

Those with what is sometimes called bipolar disorder, on the other hand, typically have physical brain chemical dysfunctions that can manifest in but are not restricted to mania and/or depression. (Contrary to popular misconception, mania and depression are not 'poles' of the same behavioral spectrum. One can suffer from both simultaneously. And, brother, without getting into it, I'll tell you that is one nasty pony ride.)

[Jeff da Weasel]

And, brother, without getting into it, I'll tell you that is one nasty pony ride.

 

Without getting into it? Like I haven't enjoyed my own share of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.

 

One cool thing about living a multi-faceted life is that one gets to share experiences based on things you didn't see on TV or read in a book. Though there's some stuff that seems logical for me to change given the access to a time machine, I believe my direct experiences, good and bad, give me a nice level of perspective. The sweeping statements about things like addiction and depression being easy to overcome make me cringe a bit... not just because they're not true, but because of the effect on society via people who do believe this.

 

Were we talking about Amy Winehouse at some point? Anyway, it would have been nice had she been given some real help. I think it's obvious that she needed it, and probably could have done some more cool music with that voice of hers. Ah well.

[blue2blue]

Honestly, I was so horrified by what little I read about her personal life, I just couldn't bring myself to read more. But I've never really been someone who follows the personal details of my favorite artists. I recently realized I didn't even know if some of my old favorites -- artists I really like and listen to frequently -- were still alive. (The lack of available new product in many cases often seems cause for concern.)

 

With Winehouse, I ended up essentially averting my eyes. If I saw her name in Google News, I wouldn't even read the headline -- at least until she broke out of the entertainment section [which I keep pared down to the minimum and often have turned off altogether; I find show biz news to be largely alienating and only confirms my most negative feelings about the entertainment biz in general and the Big Music Machine specifically] to the top of the news listings with what I guess we could call her last big story.

 

And on those rare occasions I was coaxed by morbid curiosity to read about her latest misadventure, I just found it increased my own sadness about her, since I liked her music so much and was generally saddened or angered by her life.

 

(Yes, it is possible to have compassion with someone and still be soul-deep angry with them. Just ask me how I feel about Jimi Hendrix. It's complicated. To this day. Sometimes I listen to something like "Little Wing" and I feel the tears of sorrow -- and anger -- welling up. 40 years later. And, for that matter, I guess, in a funny way, I loved Rory Gallager as much as you can love someone you don't know anything about beyond seeing 7 times and and watching interviews that focused entirely on music -- but I was deeply, profoundly angry that he had allowed his fabled drinking -- which I myself used to exalt when I, too, drank (and I only quit a little more than a year before his death) -- to get to the point where his life depended on a liver transplant. He got the transplant, but when in hospital, he picked up a MRSA infection and it was complications from that that led to his death at 47.)

[blue2blue]

Without getting into it? Like I haven't enjoyed my own share of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. One cool thing about living a multi-faceted life is that one gets to share experiences based on things you didn't see on TV or read in a book. Though there's some stuff that seems logical for me to change given the access to a time machine, I believe my direct experiences, good and bad, give me a nice level of perspective. The sweeping statements about things like addiction and depression being easy to overcome make me cringe a bit... not just because they're not true, but because of the effect on society via people who do believe this. Were we talking about Amy Winehouse at some point? Anyway, it would have been nice had she been given some real help. I think it's obvious that she needed it, and probably could have done some more cool music with that voice of hers. Ah well.

 

Without getting into it... [too late now]... let's just say that alcohol was like the magic key that allowed me to even out my often roiling moods and to move among my fellow humans with good cheer and to overcome my generally withering disdain for my fellow humans. I was that way before I started drinking and, after I quit, I was back there again.

 

As Amy said in "Rehab," I don't ever want to drink again. But there are times when the alienation and anger with my fellow humans I felt before and feel again makes me long for the days when I stumbled through life with a stupid grin on my face, loving everyone. People enjoyed being with me then -- but more importantly, and more amazingly, I enjoyed being with them.

 

That pretty much went out the window when I quit drinking.

 

I won't go back but, damn, sometimes I miss that feeling of comfort with and in interest in my fellow humans. Back then, I could talk to just about anyone -- and enjoy it.

 

I still know how to adopt the social guise of the hearty goodfellow -- but it's a sham and I know it.

[Ernest Buckley]

An interesting thought question that you can feel free to answer: Is depression a disease? All people need to do to fight it is be happy, right? Discuss.

 

 

Just my opinion here so... Depression is a habit of thinking as alcohol and other drug use. These habits become so ingrained in our psyche, we believe we cannot live w/o them, hence the dependency. Depression is an interesting angle, different than the exterior drugs because thought is an internal process that one partakes in alone. Either case, after months/years of negative thoughts, it becomes ingrained in one self as truth. Which leads to the question, what is truth but thats another topic for another thread...

[roomjello]

 

 

 

There is the old thing about the brain/body not getting/making the proper chemicals to balance the individual etc too

[blue2blue]

 

There is the old thing about the brain/body not getting/making the proper chemicals to balance the individual etc too

I think depression can be both a refreshing, zesty breath mint and a tasty candy mint.

 

Not to fall back on the white coat boys again, but there seems to be plenty of evidence that certain depressions are caused by brain chemical imbalances -- but there is also evidence to suggest that even depressions which very much appear to have started with negative life events can appear to cause self-perpetuating depressive cycles.

 

But there is also evidence that there is also more than a little element of habitual thinking involved in some/many forms of depression...

 

And those very same putatively greedhead doctors and medical scientists that urca attempted to skewer with his one-liner dismissal of their definition of addiction-as-disease as arising from pecuniary interest have found two interesting things -- that don't seem to fit his arch analysis:

 

Many forms of depression show short and long term symptomatic relief from increased physical and mental activity and exercise (supporting both roomjello and Ernest's thoughts on this).

 

And many forms of depression that appear to require treatment often respond as well or better to short-term, so-called cognitive therapy. (Which again seems to suggest that habits of thought -- if one wants to call it that -- may well play a big role in perpetuating depression -- however it started.)

 

 

Now... all that said... when I was still happily drinking myself not-quite-stupid, I'm deeply ashamed to say that I often expressed little patience for my friends who were suffering depression of various forms. I kept insisting that many folks could just pick themselves up by their bootstraps. It all seemed so simple to me. So black and white. Quit whining and just do something with yourself, I would mutter to myself.

 

But, after I quit drinking and that oh-so-helpful crutch was no longer available, my bootstraps suddenly seemed pretty damn far out of reach when, some years later, after a really amazing (and quite long) 'manic' phase, I entered one of the most crushing depressions I'd had since my early 20s, the depression that I 'cured' by plunging into every day, ongoing, enthusiastic drinking.

 

The depression really took deep hold after an extremely nasty bout of bronchitis turned into pneumonia that, at its worst, saw me running a 105 degree fever -- I had no money, wasn't in school [so no longer access to campus health clinic] and wasn't in contact with my family, so I didn't think I could go to the doctor... at one point, through my delirium, I blearily saw and heard my friends standing around my bed discussing whether they should take me to the ER... but the fever broke that night. The fever went away but the depression lingered for what I recall as months. (At the time I'd pegged it as starting with the break up of a hopeless affair with a woman I was completely 'in love' with, you know, the romantic, rose-between-the-teeth Camille type. And I secretly allowed to myself that it was also because many of my old pals had just graduated from uni and I had just dropped out shy a year's credits, but never having focused on a major.)

 

One day, an old pal came by and said, You just need to go get drunk. We did. Gloriously, stupidly drunk. I woke up the next day and I could only remember bits and pieces. I was, in a sense, so hung over, I couldn't remember what I'd been so depressed about. It was painful -- but glorious. I kept drinking and didn't look back for about 20 years.

 

Very few people understand this -- but while I don't miss drinking, I still miss hangovers. I wrote a lot of good songs the morning after.

[Raymar]

Its always amazed me how people can go off the deep end with drugs and alcohol. I've gave it a good shot for about a year and a half in high school but it wore me out and I had to back off, its just not that interesting. One thing I remember was visiting somebody that was wasted and I couldn't relate to them until I had a few then they seemed totally normal. I did have a problem with food which I found more interesting.

I think the alcholoic has a hard time taming his disease because it loosens up the inhibitions and the ego expands, quite often to the point of bring out the complete asshole in some people(and I've know a few) and they can't get a grip, food doesn't do that. Alcohol affects the lower levels of consciousness. If you have a problem with power you become the angry drunk, the intellect then you become the cynic, social inhibitions and you become over gregarious. You do this in excess long enough and body parts start going along with your overall health. Its hard to make good dicisions when your brain is deteriorating.

I used to like the pot and alcohol combo because they sorta neuturalized each other, but even that got old. I always got tagged as a light weight by that crowd. I prefer caffeinated tea these days.

[blue2blue]

I have to say that I've never needed alcohol for that. If anything, alcohol made me much more tolerant and interested in my fellow humans.

 

But, of course we are all different. Alcohol doesn't have, it seems to me, quite the same heavy-handed personality as some other drugs, like meth or coke. While there are some things that tend to run in drunks, they're a pretty variegated lot. But, to my way of thinking, coke and meth users slowly but surely all become rather alike. And, sad to say, it's not usually pretty. (Mind you, I'm not setting myself above anyone here -- I'm just leaving my personal experiences with specific illegal substances out of this thread. It's a little rule I have for myself. Let's just say, here's what I haven't done: intravenous drugs. But of course, I was shot full of morphine and demerol (IM) plenty when I was in the hospital for two months (after the aforementioned motorcycle wreck that almost tore my leg off and for which I received last rites [against my specific request]. Enough to have more than a bit of the itch when I was released.)

 

I liked fine food, too, of course. A fine steak or a nice pasta meal always set off a nice Cabernet so well.

[Dingoist]

Depression is definitely I can speak of, at least from personal experience. Ever been sent to a psych ward for evaluation? It was a cozy weekend, spent locked in the 7th floor of an old hospital with people who's problems were worse than mine.*

 

I typically found that my bouts of depression included carbohydrate cravings. This, from what I have read, is not abnormal. It also included insomnia, sometimes weeks at a time. Though for years, in my case, I didn't fall victim to the "depressive unable to move off the couch" syndrome, because I kept a strict routine. It wasn't until that routine was completely thrown off because of the weekend retreat mentioned about (oh the story it is), that I actually succumbed to utter lethargy.

 

So is it a disease? It doesn't quite fit the medical model of a disease, yet it does include physical symptoms and can be "treated" by medication (though often the underlying cause is still there). And I believe it still is wildly misunderstood by the broader community, or the "just take a pill" pharmaceutical mentality.

 

To reinforce what B2B mentioned, I combated my diagnosed depression with a light use of prescribed drugs but also diet, exercise and cognitive therapy. I found that really helped.

 

But the odd thing that really really improved things was actually when I started working in high tech. I found I was good at it, and people told me earnestly that I was good at it. There was a substantial self esteem boost, along with diet and exercise, and you know, I haven't seen a shrink or been on meds for 12 years. Some days are a throw back, but I think everyone now has off days.

 

Though the thing with depression, it was also the cause of me loosing days inside of a bottle in my 20s. I would work the week, go home, open a bottle or go to the bar, and then next thing you know it would be Monday. I was a drinker, a controlled one, but the weekends were fair game. I wanted to drink, I needed to drink, I needed to smoke excessively and aggressively in an passive self-torturing way. If I couldn't do myself in via other methods, I would do it by bottle and cigarettes, damn it, I would.

 

Fortunately with drugs, I never really made it past pot. Pot made my feet itch and it unnerved me.

 

I do miss my depressive times though, I don't feel nearly as alive or creative, and I do miss the old "me" some days.

 

 

* I actually wasn't that bad shape. I had recognized the symptoms of a depressive spell, actually gotten help and restarted medication. I was coping, taking therapy and moving forward until an over zealous relative panicked over the "depression" word, and called the police thinking I might need supervision.

[nat whilk II]

I had this 3-4 year spell where my motivation and energy and joie de vie seeped out from somewhere in the slowest, most insidious manner. I blamed myself, kicked myself, lectured myself, did the whole "internal drill sargeant ass-chewing" bit constantly. At times I would feel I was putting it behind me, then the bottom would drop out again.

One day I went out to mow the lawn and I just couldn't gumption up the energy and wherewithal to push the dang mower 100 feet (and I kind of pride myself on my characteristic love of exercise) - I just felt sickeningly hollow, my arms ached weirdly, and I felt one of those really really dark sessions coming on, and then........I said to myself, "Something's wrong with me! - I should see the doc!". (brilliant, eh?)

One blood test later, I had my Rx for thyroid replacement hormones - I was seriously hypo (deficient) thyroid, probably had been dropping hormone levels over a couple of decades, and had just finally run down like an old clock.

Any psychologist would have diagnosed me as clinically depressed and started me on Prozac or somesuch. And any number of well-meaning advice-givers of a various camps would have lectured me on thinking positively, or the power or prayer, or just gutting it up and seeing it through like a man, etc etc....all a waste.

Ain't no attitude adjustment can do what a proper thyroid level can do....

nat whilk ii

[blue2blue]

And then there's Lyme Disease and its aftermath. I forgot to mention it above, but I was apparently infected by a tick while camping in Switzerland a few years before the crushing depression -- and ended up with a systemic reaction that manifested as a sort of eczema like skin condition that threw several dermatologists for a loop. (This was the early 70s.) They kept giving me topical ointments but, of course, they did little, since the problem was coming from inside.

 

I eventually figured out on my own that my rather compulsive ultra-high salami diet (back when salami was still allowed to have both sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate -- later it was determined that sodium nitrate can be carcinogenic in humans and it was disallowed in food in the US. I figured it out on my own, eliminated cured meats and anything containin nitrites and nitrates from my diet and the dermatological manifestations went away).

 

The funny thing is that in 1980, in the hospital for the first time in my life (the aforementioned motorcycle wreck), before the doc started reconstructive surgery (8-1/2 hours of it), he asked me if I was allergic to anything. Of course, he was looking for an answer like sulfa or penicillin so when I said Sodium Nitrate he was taken aback.

 

I said, you know, like they used to have in sausages.

 

He said, I've never heard of such a thing.

 

He was clearly disbelieving.

 

I said, well, they found it's carcinogenic, right?

 

And he said, hesitantly, Yes.

 

And I said, Well doesn't it stand to reason that something that can give you cancer might cause an allergic reaction in a lower dose?

 

He said, I never thought of it that way.

 

[rasputin1963]

Have we gotten an autopsy report yet? It was alcohol alone? Or heroin? In compliance with Jewish law, she is supposed to be buried within 24 hours of death. Theoretically, tattooed bodies are not to be buried in a consecrated Jewish cemetery....just sayin'.

 

 

Me, I was diagnosed BPD in 2001... I've been on a lovely cocktail of meds ever since. The meds have their own set of side-effects which the user must factor into his daily life (eg., DEPAKOTE may have hastened on my Type II diabetes... SEROQUEL alleviates mania, but it also makes you wanna sleep all the {censored}in' time, etc.) My BPD probably has a genetic component, as I was always a troublemaker in my early gradeschool days, and my father was almost surely BPD in the 1960's and 70's before they knew how to treat it. Family legend comes down to me of my great-great grandfather who was very rageful, brooding, unpredictable and wild-tempered indeed... surely BPD by all apparent data.

 

If you read books like ANGELA'S ASHES and other McCourt tales, you will probably come away thinking that the Irish people have a natural predisposition to melancholy, depression and alcoholism... I suspect there may indeed be a genetic component here. Supposedly, The Irish, American Indians and the Japanese all genetically lack an enzyme that breaks down alcohol, and thus are more susceptible to its ills?

 

My Mom, a psychologist who has treated troubled and drugging teens for decades, is not happy with the pat explanation of Amy's death... ie., the idea that it could never have been helped, her death was inwevitable, and no-one could have stemmed its progress. "All it takes in one person", says Mom.

 

It may well be that Amy's entourage were enjoying her as a cash-cow, Elvis-style, and had no vested interest in curbing her career (however much of a farce/circus it was becoming...).

[blue2blue]

I had this 3-4 year spell where my motivation and energy and joie de vie seeped out from somewhere in the slowest, most insidious manner. I blamed myself, kicked myself, lectured myself, did the whole "internal drill sargeant ass-chewing" bit constantly. At times I would feel I was putting it behind me, then the bottom would drop out again. One day I went out to mow the lawn and I just couldn't gumption up the energy and wherewithal to push the dang mower 100 feet (and I kind of pride myself on my characteristic love of exercise) - I just felt sickeningly hollow, my arms ached weirdly, and I felt one of those really really dark sessions coming on, and then.... ....I said to myself, "Something's wrong with me! - I should see the doc!". (brilliant, eh?) One blood test later, I had my Rx for thyroid replacement hormones - I was seriously hypo (deficient) thyroid, probably had been dropping hormone levels over a couple of decades, and had just finally run down like an old clock. Any psychologist would have diagnosed me as clinically depressed and started me on Prozac or somesuch. And any number of well-meaning advice-givers of a various camps would have lectured me on thinking positively, or the power or prayer, or just gutting it up and seeing it through like a man, etc etc....all a waste. Ain't no attitude adjustment can do what a proper thyroid level can do.... nat whilk ii

These days, I think most conscientious psychologists and psychological counselors will send many of their new patients for a general workup intended to catch stuff like that -- and clearly that is a very good practice, particularly when the patient presents symptoms like lethargy, confusion, depression, and so on.

 

 

Speaking of second opinions (We weren't? We are now... although my dinner just dinged at me, so I'm gonna cut things on the short side. [Yah, sure.])

 

Second opinions are often a very good idea.

 

One of my neighbors in the 80s told me the story of coming back from a semester in Guadalajara, Mexico. Soon after her return she started getting nausea, upset stomachs and all sorts of such ailments. At first she thought it was a bit of delay touristas (another syndrome with multiple possible causes).

 

But it went on and on. Finally, her mother sent her to her own doctor, an internist. He told her he would have to remove a 14 inch stretch of colon. She was horrified but the doc assured her it was all going to be fine. He would assist in the operation, and his favorite surgeon would perform it.

 

She was depressed and anxious (OK, maybe not depressed but plenty anxious). Finally her boyfriend at the time said, Look, maybe he's right, but why don't you get a second opinion?

 

She didn't want to offend her mother, who swore by this doctor. So she got the second opinion without telling her. The second doctor said, What did this guy want to do?!? You've got amoebic dysentary -- no one needs to cut you open let alone cut out 14 inches of your bowel. I'm starting you on a antibiotic treatment today.

 

A few weeks she was much better. Her mother, however, was furious.

 

Dr so-and-so is really offended. He's a great doctor. I can't believe you're ignoring his advice.

 

My neighbor said, Mom, I feel much better and my doctor is monitoring it and says the infestation is knocked out.

 

Her mom, then in her mid-40s, accused her of being a know it all. She said, Dr so-and-so is an excellent doctor, he's operated four times on me and twice on your step-father!

 

______________

 

 

Another pal was diagnosed with what I believe was a mitral-valve prolapse condition. His cardiologist -- a very well known, respected doctor -- was monitoring it and then, one day in the late 80s, not long before my pal was going to get married, the doc said, Uh oh... I think it's time for a valve replacement.

 

My buddy, who's a worrier, was, of course, worried. But he postponed his wedding, made the preparations. The cardiologist arranged for a very well-known cutter to fly in from the east coast.

 

Finally, the big day came. My buddy checked in the night before, had all the prep, including shaving off all his upper body hair and so forth. The next morning, surgical prep began and when they had him all set up, the out of town surgeon blew in. My pal was scoped up (or whatever they did in the late 80s) and the surgeon took one look.

 

He stood back.

 

Who said this man needed this surgery?

 

The answer, of course, was this very well known cardio guy (who'd been the focus of at least one best-selling book). He was sent for (he was going to assist, anyhow, of course). The two docs jawed for a while. My buddy's own cardiologist came back out. Uh, turns out you don't need the surgery right now, after all.

 

It's now 22 years later and he still hasn't needed the surgery (but he probably will). My buddy still sees the same cardiologist and still has faith in him (must have been a hell of a next office call though).

 

__________________

 

 

 

Another buddy went to a dermatologist for a funny bump on his finger.

 

There was a biopsy. Cancer.

 

The dermatologist called in a surgeon and they prepared the treatment: removal of two fingers and part of the right hand.

 

My buddy has played guitar for a long time and had just started playing piano. He was, as you can imagine, devastated.

 

He grew more and more fearful and his mood darkened.

 

Finally, his sister, a no-nonsense nurse administrator (and I went out with her for 8 months, she's definitely no nonsense ) said, Look, you have to have some kind of treatment -- maybe this one. But let me set up a second opinion with a dermatologist I know and have great faith in.

 

Ar first my pal wasn't going to get the second opinion, the other doctor convinced him there wasn't time if they wanted to save the hand.

 

My buddy was beside himself. His sister finally set up the appointment and all but dragged him to it.

 

The diagnosis came back -- there'd been a biopsy already, of course, but it was confirmed: cancer.

 

The new doc said, Well what did your doctor suggest as a treatment.

 

They told him. The doctor was taken aback.

 

Finally he said, Here's the good news: I really, really don't think you need to have anything amputated. We'll excise the small tumor and a little tissue around it. Then we'll follow up with tightly focused radiation. It should be no problem.

 

My buddy was incredulous. I don't have to have my fingers and 20% of my hand removed?

 

No.

 

You said that was the 'good news' -- what was the bad news?

 

I normally wouldn't say this, but... you really need a new doctor.

[roomjello]

Has anyone here ever seen George Micheal sing Queen?
It's {censored}ing outstanding.
I {censored} you not.

[video=youtube;8c7x2JD_j-0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c7x2JD_j-0

[rasputin1963]

I had this 3-4 year spell where my motivation and energy and joie de vie seeped out from somewhere in the slowest, most insidious manner. I blamed myself, kicked myself, lectured myself, did the whole "internal drill sargeant ass-chewing" bit constantly. At times I would feel I was putting it behind me, then the bottom would drop out again. One day I went out to mow the lawn and I just couldn't gumption up the energy and wherewithal to push the dang mower 100 feet (and I kind of pride myself on my characteristic love of exercise) - I just felt sickeningly hollow, my arms ached weirdly, and I felt one of those really really dark sessions coming on, and then.... ....I said to myself, "Something's wrong with me! - I should see the doc!". (brilliant, eh?) One blood test later, I had my Rx for thyroid replacement hormones - I was seriously hypo (deficient) thyroid, probably had been dropping hormone levels over a couple of decades, and had just finally run down like an old clock. Any psychologist would have diagnosed me as clinically depressed and started me on Prozac or somesuch. And any number of well-meaning advice-givers of a various camps would have lectured me on thinking positively, or the power or prayer, or just gutting it up and seeing it through like a man, etc etc....all a waste. Ain't no attitude adjustment can do what a proper thyroid level can do.... nat whilk ii

 

Yep, all true. As you point out, for me, depression is not a "persistent sadness" or "urge to cry"... Rather, it's a void of energy and emotion. Crying would probably be a good thing, if you could only muster it! As nat points out, it's more of an all-over deadness. I think men, especially, register depression in this fashion.

 

Plenty will decry the influence of modern pharmaceuticals, but really, medicine can be a lifesaver. Also on weak ground are those who suggest one take OTC herbal supplements for hormonal and depressive symptioms, like St. John's Wort.

 

The difference in effect between St. John's Wort and Prozac is like the difference between pissing on a housefire... and pulling up a firemen's hose.

 

Does Depression somehow foster creativity in otherwise talented artists? What paintings would Van Gogh have produced had he been given Prozac? One wonders. I will admit that SSRI's make me a different person, than when not on them. And the difference between those two personae is not an "analogue ramping up"..... rather, it is a full "digital night-and-day shift". I literally am two different people, on it and off it.

 

nat whilk ii, interesting that you should use the metaphor "the bottom dropped out". I have always said that SSRI's are valuable in that they give me a "floor" to stand on. I might still have depressive days, but there is a floor beneath me, beneath which I cannot sink. When untreated, depression feels like you have no floor, that you could sink forever into the abyss.