I have a Peavey AT-200 Guitar with Auto-Tune here

[deanmass]

Without knowing much about it, I am in the camp that believe Peavey gets no cred or little cred when they are really 100% cred. They are not generally sexy, but dollar for dollar, going back 20 years, they stack up across their entire product line (cough DPM3/SP/SX). When I was selling, I sold Raptors like CRAZY to people who were looking at Squires. The Raptor pretty much blew everything under$300 out of the water,and used, I see them for $69!

Auto Tune would interest me more if I could set4-6 presets, like standard, drop d, open A, open E, etc. I really need something that has auto volume so when I eff up, it turns me down

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by blue2blue

but c) takes a lot of the sport out of playing guitar.

Playing in tune doesn't seem to bother keyboard players much

In some ways it puts some sport back in, because you can really beat the crap out of the guitar and it still stays in tune

[Geoff Grace]

My thoughts, exactly, Craig!

Originally Posted by Anderton

Playing in tune doesn't seem to bother keyboard players much

[JeffLearman]

One of the issues with the tuning being pure software is that acoustic feedback won't work right. IMHO it's a big part of what makes an electric guitar handle the way it does (and one of the reasons we guitarists like to play to bloody loud). I'm not talking about Hendrix-style feedback (though it would apply to that too), but the subtler but significant increase in sustain and richness of tone that we get.

If the strings aren't vibrating at the same frequency and in phase with the electrical output, the guitar just won't handle the same.

In some cases, that could be a good thing, eliminating unwanted feedback. For some styles, it might be great to tune 1/2 step high or low, and viola, no feedback! But for blues and rock, not being in tune with the electrical output would seem to me to rob a lot of what makes a guitar rock. It's one of the things that despite how much better amp/cab modelers get, playing in headphones just isn't the same.

But, as mentioned above, this guitar won't be for tone freaks or players with the tone in their fingers. It'd be better for a guy like me: I'm primarily a keyboard player so my technique leaves a lot to be desired, and I'm also a stickler for being in tune. Plus, despite the drawbacks, I still often play in headphones using a modeler because I don't want to annoy my family or the neighbors.

I bet Robert Fripp would know what to do with one (but he also doesn't really need it as far as I can tell!) I also wouldn't be surprised to see Joni Mitchell playing one. I think she currently uses a Variax, to handle switching between the twenty or so tunings she uses.

[blue2blue]

Originally Posted by Anderton

Playing in tune doesn't seem to bother keyboard players much

In some ways it puts some sport back in, because you can really beat the crap out of the guitar and it still stays in tune

Right. That's why they never invented the pitch bend wheel.





As I may have suggested, while I was initially quite skeptical about such a device, the review or promo vid I watched and the discussion I mostly audited left me thinking that such a system might well prove a useful addition to the house instruments in a studio of a given size and nature. There are definitely times when you need a nice, clean, stay-in-its-pocket rhythm guitar. And, as someone in that thread suggested, if you can really bash the heck out of it in 'free' mode and then get 'instantly' go back to playing smack in tune... that could be valuable in a number of situations. And that's something you can't get on a standard Strat, I'll tell you.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally Posted by deanmass

Without knowing much about it, I am in the camp that believe Peavey gets no cred or little cred when they are really 100% cred. They are not generally sexy, but dollar for dollar, going back 20 years, they stack up across their entire product line (cough DPM3/SP/SX). When I was selling, I sold Raptors like CRAZY to people who were looking at Squires. The Raptor pretty much blew everything under$300 out of the water,and used, I see them for $69!

Auto Tune would interest me more if I could set4-6 presets, like standard, drop d, open A, open E, etc. I really need something that has auto volume so when I eff up, it turns me down

You'd think this is coming. Presets would be extremely useful for this sort of thing, I would think, as would slight detuning (globally or individual strings).

And I think what blue12blue is referring to by his sport comment is not that it's in-tune, but other issues, such as tremolo, vibrato, string-bending and other things involving tracking.

Anyway, I also agree that Peavey doesn't get much cred for their innovation, or simply even when they design a good, solid product.

I have a Peavey VMP-2 tube mic preamp that I absolutely love. I've been using it for over ten years and think it sounds great. It stacks up well next to Neve preamps.

[blue2blue]

Well, as I understand (and remember) the device and its capabilities/features, you can get it to disengage for bends and such. (Seems like the vid I saw even had a trem bar demo, as well.) Assuming that works well (and it seems a stretch but my mind is open), that allows for the broader technique based excursions from the grid -- but there are times when one would like to get a little pitch modulation from a wee wiggle of the fingertips ('the tone is in his fingers'), and for that, I think you'd have to completely disengage the A-T.

But, aside from all that, I think there's a certain quixotic sporting quality to trying to get a guitar into its 'best' possible tuning.

[MrKnobs]

Originally Posted by Geoff Grace

One thing I like is that you can have alternate tunings at the push of a button. No more forced banter on stage while the guitar player changes the tuning for the next song.

That happened about 15 years ago when Roland came out with the VG-8.

Or a lot longer ago when guitarists started keeping more than one guitar on stage.

Terry D.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally Posted by blue2blue

Well, as I understand (and remember) the device and its capabilities/features, you can get it to disengage for bends and such. (Seems like the vid I saw even had a trem bar demo, as well.) Assuming that works well (and it seems a stretch but my mind is open), that allows for the broader technique based excursions from the grid -- but there are times when one would like to get a little pitch modulation from a wee wiggle of the fingertips ('the tone is in his fingers'), and for that, I think you'd have to completely disengage the A-T.

But, aside from all that, I think there's a certain quixotic sporting quality to trying to get a guitar into its 'best' possible tuning.

Oh, if that - or changing strings - is considered sport, I'd gladly have the instrument do it instead!!!!

And yes, you can disengage the AutoTune so you may do bends, tremolo, vibrato, whatever with greater ease.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally Posted by MrKnobs

Or a lot longer ago when guitarists started keeping more than one guitar on stage.

Terry D.

Yes, but having gigged quite often with two guitars, pedals, amp, and a keyboard, I for one would welcome a guitar that did alternate tunings on the fly to cut down on the amount of stuff one has to haul (and watch to make certain it's not nicked) during gigs!

I would be more interested in a guitar that did alternate tunings by retuning the guitar, but at this point, I've got a number of really really great guitars, and am happy with them.

Something like the Peavey Auto-Tune guitar probably isn't made to appeal exactly to someone like me, though. But even though I would likely never buy a guitar like this, I am interested in checking it out and seeing where it develops.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by MrKnobs

That happened about 15 years ago when Roland came out with the VG-8.

Or a lot longer ago when guitarists started keeping more than one guitar on stage.

Terry D.

Amazingly, the VG-8 came out in 1995 and IIRC, was the first "COSM" product. But I think the Variax was the first to have alternate tuning options built into the guitar itself, back in 2002. The VG-Strat, from 2007, had five alternate tunings onboard but guitarists balked at the price (around $1700 street).

Interestingly, a post on HC about the VG-Strat said it was a great concept, but way too expensive, and if they could just come out with a model that cost $500... Wonder if anyone at Peavey saw that post?

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by UstadKhanAli

I would be more interested in a guitar that did alternate tunings by retuning the guitar, but at this point, I've got a number of really really great guitars, and am happy with them.

The Gibson Robot-based guitars actually tune the strings, which has advantages and disadvantages. The main plus is there's no DSP, so the sound you get out of the guitar is the sound of real strings, tuned to real pitches. You also don't get the "guitar plays one pitch, sound coming out of it plays a different pitch" disconnect.

The main minus is that you can't tune beyond the physics of how far the strings can tune. That accommodates a lot of alternate tunings, but you certainly can't do tricks like tune up or down a fifth. Also, the system is based on servo motors. The Robot system has become lighter, more reliable, and faster over the years, but it still takes longer for the Robot tuners to do their thing compared to DSP...around 10-15 seconds and a few strums. Not bad, but certainly not instantaneous.

Gibson has gotten a lot of flak for their high-tech guitars, but I really appreciate what they can do. The Dusk Tiger became a sort of laughingstock because of its look, but damn, it sure sounds good and plays fabulously.

[Geoff Grace]

Originally Posted by MrKnobs

Originally Posted by Geoff Grace

One thing I like is that you can have alternate tunings at the push of a button. No more forced banter on stage while the guitar player changes the tuning for the next song.

That happened about 15 years ago when Roland came out with the VG-8.

True. I had forgotten about that. It was certainly an option, albeit a less affordable one.

Originally Posted by MrKnobs

Or a lot longer ago when guitarists started keeping more than one guitar on stage.

Although, in my experience anyway, that was more for timbral variety than tuning variety. But it's true that both options existed.

Best,

Geoff

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally Posted by Anderton

The Gibson Robot-based guitars actually tune the strings, which has advantages and disadvantages. The main plus is there's no DSP, so the sound you get out of the guitar is the sound of real strings, tuned to real pitches. You also don't get the "guitar plays one pitch, sound coming out of it plays a different pitch" disconnect.

The main minus is that you can't tune beyond the physics of how far the strings can tune. That accommodates a lot of alternate tunings, but you certainly can't do tricks like tune up or down a fifth. Also, the system is based on servo motors. The Robot system has become lighter, more reliable, and faster over the years, but it still takes longer for the Robot tuners to do their thing compared to DSP...around 10-15 seconds and a few strums. Not bad, but certainly not instantaneous.

Good pro/con synopsis. And were I to look for a "self-tuning" guitar, I would be definitely okay with those advantages/disadvantages.

BTW, this is the guitar I've had in mind when thinking of physically self-tuning guitars:
Transperformance self-tuning guitar

While most guitars will only ever see standard tuning (EADGBE), a goodly proportion of popular music is played with alternate tunings. Just as each guitar sounds different, musicians will change the tune of a guitar to create the sound they require and that

[EngineerEnemy]

This guitar could really help my band out. We used four different tuning on our new album. But will it tune down to drop A tuning? If you covered this already I apologize for asking again. Thanks for your time.

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by EngineerEnemy

This guitar could really help my band out. We used four different tuning on our new album. But will it tune down to drop A tuning? If you covered this already I apologize for asking again. Thanks for your time.

 

Currently, as long as the notes are below standard guitar string pitches, you're okay. For example, you can drop the E down to D, but you can't raise it to F. Future software updates are slated to allow tunings with upward pitch transposition as well.

[nice keetee]

After thinking about this for awhile, I could see this as useful in some situations especially live for multiple tunings for songs, and horrible if overused as in Autotune vocals.
Where's the human touch? Slightly out of tune strings like fat sounding slightly out of tune analog synths sound real to me.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by nice keetee

After thinking about this for awhile, I could see this as useful in some situations especially live for multiple tunings for songs, and horrible if overused as in Autotune vocals.
Where's the human touch? Slightly out of tune strings like fat sounding slightly out of tune analog synths sound real to me.

You should give the guitar a try and see if you prefer truly in tune or somewhat out of tune. It's easy to compare, because you can go back and forth between the passive pickups and the Auto-Tuned output. Personally, the process of doing sample libraries turned me into a tuning fanatic, my ear became very sensitive to tuning anomalies and they bug me. If I want that slightly out of tune sound, I figure that's what chorus units are all about

It may just be the novelty of achieving a sound easily that usually takes me a lot of effort to obtain, and after laying down the 50th "perfect" guitar part, I might yearn for some good ol' funky tuning. We'll see...

The difference compared to Auto-Tuned vocals is that vocals being single-note instruments, they're being tuned to some arbitrary standard, and vocalists do not always want to hit those arbitrary standards. I've actually used V-Vocal to "uncorrect" vocals, and make a note that was "dead on" a little bit sharp or flat. The slight tuning difference sounded more "right" than the correct pitch. But with the guitar, Auto-Tune is primarily about the guitar being in tune with itself. For chords, I like the consonance and for leads, the pitch correction unlocks anyway as soon as I start bending, so the Auto-Tune isn't really in the picture at that point.

I don't mean to present this as a panacea or something that all guitarists should embrace - I'm not selling any of my other guitars - but damn, it sure is wonderful to play voicings that I didn't play before because I could never get them quite in tune due to the difficult fingering stretches.

[nice keetee]

I want one to see what it can do Craig, amazing tech over the years eh?

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by nice keetee

I want one to see what it can do Craig, amazing tech over the years eh?

 

No kidding. I figure the AT-200, which can always be in tune, was invented to restore balance in the force to compensate for the invention of the 12-string, which is never in tune

[nice keetee]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

No kidding. I figure the AT-200, which can always be in tune, was invented to restore balance in the force to compensate for the invention of the 12-string, which is never in tune

 

ah...changing 12 strings constant chorus

[MikeRivers]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

Currently, as long as the notes are below standard guitar string pitches, you're okay. For example, you can drop the E down to D, but you can't raise it to F.

 

I think that's a limitation that prevents you from breaking virtual strings.

[MrKnobs]

All in all, I think this is an invention without much of a useful purpose. And having owned two Antares rack mount units in the past, I'm highly skeptical that this thing sounds even remotely natural.

As a final note, I've been out hearing live bands lately and I've noticed that there's a kind of slack key out of tune guitar style happening that the kids like. I have an off the board clip somewhere of one guy who's extremely popular. When anyone over 35 or so, especially guitarists hears this style they immediately say "Wow, this kid can't even tune his guitar!"

Meanwhile, everyone under 25 is dancing their asses off. This kid I have the clip of is a looper guy, one of those guys who lays down a scratchy guitar track, then a simple drum beat, then a bass, then sings and plays his ass off over the top of it.

I don't think perfection is in. Honestly, I don't think it ever was. It's about energy and sincerity, not microtuning or intonation.

Terry D.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by MrKnobs

All in all, I think this is an invention without much of a useful purpose. And having owned two Antares rack mount units in the past, I'm highly skeptical that this thing sounds even remotely natural.

Well, thanks to the miracle of the interwebs and having my music computer turned on, you can judge for yourself from the attached MP3. The first part is a Fender Twin clean sound, the next part is through an amp sim with distortion. You'll hear what I mean about the consonance of the distortion.

If the only useful purpose is for cutting 40% of the time spent tuning when doing sample libraries, at least it's useful for me

I don't think perfection is in. Honestly, I don't think it ever was. It's about energy and sincerity, not microtuning or intonation.

I can't think of a bigger buzzkill than having to retune because I hit some energetic power chord and had to pay the consequences. For me, the less I have to think about or maintain an instrument while playing, the more energy I have and the more I can stay "in the groove."

[Geoff Grace]

Originally Posted by MrKnobs

And having owned two Antares rack mount units in the past, I'm highly skeptical that this thing sounds even remotely natural.

And how often do electric guitars sound natural? The sound is almost always processed in one way or another.

Speaking as someone who has heard Auto Tune on vocals and heard this electric guitar demo'd, it was much harder for me to detect it on electric guitar. Perhaps if I were used to hearing a fretless electric guitar, it would sound stranger to my ears. But considering guitars already have that form of imposed and unnatural tuning that vocals don't, and considering that electric guitars are rarely played "clean" anyway, Auto Tune was not at all an obvious effect to my ears in this case.

It'll be interesting to revisit this once more people have actually heard the thing.

Best,

Geoff