OT: Meh.

[SrMeowMeow]

this thread is growing weird and also awkward

[honeyiscool]

Oh yeah, I forgot. Radical feminism as in the actual branch called that. Ha. Brain fart.

Yeah, I'm more of a liberal feminist.

[bsman]

I'm personally more of a perverted feminist....

[GAS Man]

I don't know what any of you guys are talking about, it confuses me as a liberal conservative from the extreme moderate's camp.

[billybilly]

 

Originally Posted by bsman

From that article, it appears to me that so-called radical feminism essentially disappeared in the 90s, so it's not terribly germane to the current discussion. I've been around feminists most of my life, and can honestly say that I've never met ANYBODY who espouses the ideas that are apparently attributed to this "movement". Seems to me it may be more of a theoretical construct than a reality, similar to many of the strawman...er...strawpeople arguments... that are often thrown out by polemicists...

 

Well, the movement did but there remains many individuals who still adhere to the belief which generalize and blame all men for the oppression of women on a whole. From my experience, its usually women who have been abused in some way or another or have some underlying emotional issues as a result of an experience with a man.

In saying this and on this topic, men and women are different but instead of focusing on the negatives of our differences, I believe it is far better to celebrate our differences and embrace them in a positive light.

What? Is this a guitar forum?

[honeyiscool]

Well, I think there's something to be said. There are women in all level of musical achievement and success. Sure, not as many as men, but choirs, school and marching bands, orchestras, and musicals never lack for women performers. There's something inherently slanted about rock music that has, in the past, actively excluded women, whether by design or by accident. I think as the whole "rock" thing has died somewhat, you see more and more women performing not just in pink-collar positions, but as equals to men in rock bands, and I hope this continues.

[kayd_mon]

Feminism is just the idea that women and men should be treated equally, receiving equal rights, opportunities, and freedoms. I had to read enough of this philosophy in college, and I can accurately call myself a feminist. A woman who treats men unfairly and calls herself a feminist is severely misinformed; that woman could be called a sexist, I suppose.

[honeyiscool]

 

Originally Posted by kayd_mon

Feminism is just the idea that women and men should be treated equally, receiving equal rights, opportunities, and freedoms. I had to read enough of this philosophy in college, and I can accurately call myself a feminist. A woman who treats men unfairly and calls herself a feminist is severely misinformed; that woman could be called a sexist, I suppose.

 

Word up!

[kayd_mon]

 

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

Well, I think there's something to be said. There are women in all level of musical achievement and success. Sure, not as many as men, but choirs, school and marching bands, orchestras, and musicals never lack for women performers. There's something inherently slanted about rock music that has, in the past, actively excluded women, whether by design or by accident. I think as the whole "rock" thing has died somewhat, you see more and more women performing not just in pink-collar positions, but as equals to men in rock bands, and I hope this continues.

 

I love female vocals, but you don't see a whole ton of them in rock. I always wondered at the fact that if you go to see an orchestra, many (if not most) of the violinists are women, and they are awesome. The violin is much harder than guitar; why then are there not more female virtuoso guitarists?

[honeyiscool]

 

Originally Posted by kayd_mon

I love female vocals, but you don't see a whole ton of them in rock. I always wondered at the fact that if you go to see an orchestra, many (if not most) of the violinists are women, and they are awesome. The violin is much harder than guitar; why then are there not more female virtuoso guitarists?

 

You know, I've formed my own hypotheses on this. Women pretty much have equal representation in more traditional, organized forms of music. Like singing contests, orchestras, musicals, marching bands, operas, just classical in general, etc. However, as things get more and more disorganized, there just seem to be fewer women involved. And the women that are involved are in those pink collar positions, even bass guitar is one of those. Never mind virtuosos, how often do you see a female lead guitarist in a boy-girl band? I do think there has to be something to be said about sexism that kind of casually pervades rock music, but it might have to do with how organized musical efforts are really more about the music and less drama attached, whereas rock bands are really a life experience with {censored}loads of drama. I'm in a boy-girl band and we're probably about the only one I know in town where none of the members are sleeping together. Lot of people wanna avoid that because drama can render things dead before they even begin.

[billybilly]

 

Originally Posted by kayd_mon

Feminism is just the idea that women and men should be treated equally, receiving equal rights, opportunities, and freedoms. I had to read enough of this philosophy in college, and I can accurately call myself a feminist. A woman who treats men unfairly and calls herself a feminist is severely misinformed; that woman could be called a sexist, I suppose.

 

+1!

[kayd_mon]

I believe The Toadies had a female lead guitarist, and Veruca Salt had two female guitarists with a male rhythm section. That's all I can think of.

The drama issue is valid; I have worked with female singers before, and there has been a lot of drama attached. I was never one of the causes, but I definitely experienced the fallout. I do know one female singer whom I have worked with that has no drama attached. Before my bassist moved away, we were thinking of adding her to our original band (we were working with her on a side cover band). Of all the people I have played with in bands, though, very rarely has an instrumentalist been a female. I must say, though, that I had a student once who played drums. She is one of the best drummers I have ever jammed with.

[GAS Man]

 

Originally Posted by kayd_mon

I love female vocals, but you don't see a whole ton of them in rock. I always wondered at the fact that if you go to see an orchestra, many (if not most) of the violinists are women, and they are awesome. The violin is much harder than guitar; why then are there not more female virtuoso guitarists?

 

Yeah, that's an interesting topic.

It has to do with social mores (pronounced morays) and norms.

First I take a bit of pride (more than I should) for having gotten a female guitarist's name published in Guitar Player Magazine (IIRC) in the list of "Under-appreciated Guitarists". The thread was started here by the magazine's editors, and I was pleased to see they accepted and published her nomination.

But I wanted to comment on this cuz - I once attended a show called "Masters Of The Steel String Guitar". It was a fabulous show which included a stage narrator and showcased many genres' of steel string guitar, and included many notables such as Jerry Douglas and Albert Lee.

BUT ANYWAY, the narrator made the "historical" comment that guitar in its early days was predominately a woman's instrument. He then went on to say that it's now considered to be a male dominated instrument but didn't necessarily go into a lot of detail as to "why?". But historically, he is correct. Guitar and its ancestors were essentially a fairly soft voiced parlor instrument. A fairly subdued voiced, gut stringed instrument with a soft, beautiful voice. Fast forward to blues and the raw energy of electric guitar and the perceived sexual nature of the new rock genre and the male dominance ensued.

I don't think there's any reason why male dominance of the instrument should continue. I think it would be really annoying for folks like Ann Wilson or Bonnie Raitt to constantly hear praise like "good for a girl". They are good - period. The only thing I've ever wondered about is the physical strength it takes to play the instrument, but for women that are very good at the instrument - Orianthi suddenly springs to mind - it doesn't seem to hinder them in the least. Their runs and bends are just as fluid as the best of their male counter parts. I think we're just now at a point where the more female guitar heroes there are, the more the instrument will be picked up by women when they can identify more with their own role models.

 

It's a shame though that when she puts out records, she has to go more pop to draw a market for sales.

Why can't she do that ^ and get the support?

[honeyiscool]

I don't think there's any real physical strength involved in playing guitar. I know some people on the Internets pride themselves in playing 12s with high action and think that makes them a real man's man and all that but when you look at how effortlessly someone like Paul Gilbert plays, it's clear that he's not wasting any strength in playing the instrument. (p.s. If you play 12s with high action, great, I'm glad that works for you, I'm not judging.) A well set-up guitar with the right specs for you should take pretty much no effort at all to play, certainly most classical instruments are more physically demanding, and there are plenty of women cellists out there and cello definitely is more physically demanding while also requiring more finesse.

The thing about Orianthi, though, is that she is good, but her only real appeal is that of being a woman shredder, which is rare. Honestly, can you listen to her and can you say that she has exceptional tone or even a style that is truly hers? I mean, I don't particularly care for dudes like Eric Johnson or Vai, but you can hear ten seconds and you know it has to be Vai or Eric Johnson. I don't really find that she's all that interesting at all. Plus, her pop music is boring, and her tone is very cookie cutter for that genre. She seems like one of those people who will forever be a side person, which is not a bad thing, but some people just lack that IT quality. I think that at least that genre of music will always be dude-dominated. Not a lot of women really listen to guitar god music. I don't know of too many, at least. And if they're not listening to it, then they're not going to become them, either.

I do wonder, though. I'm more interested in the complete musician, who can write and sing yet rip a solo now and then and manage to be interesting. There are many male musicians like that but I think maybe women are not being challenged to become those types of musicians because of their rarity and men's desire to help out a damsel in distress. I mean, Leslie Feist is a good example of who I'm talking about. I think there's a case of when women have talent, people are almost afraid of them becoming too independent and perhaps the end result is that women musicians are encouraged to be limited, so that they have to be dependent on men.

But that's also because a girl with the smallest amount of talent can find musicians to work with, whereas a guy has to be very social, be the bassist, or be very developed before anyone will even give them a chance. When I was starting guitar, I just really wanted to be good enough to play rhythm. However, nobody really gave me a chance on guitar when my chops were lagging. I had to practice a {censored}load before I could crack it as a guitarist in a band, and no, I'm not even that great, but if I were a girl with absolute pitch, a few dozen self-written songs, and 20 years of classical training, would people have given me a chance more easily even if barre chords are all I knew? Yeah, probably. But as a result, I might have never developed as much of a guitarist because I could easily just find someone else to do the job for me. Of course, then I'd have to deal with sleazebags that just think latching onto a girl will be good for their career, but I'd still have found collaborators to work with. So for a girl, their career is just a different path altogether.

I'm not presenting a well thought out argument, just thinking out loud, really.

[gdsmithtx]

 

Originally Posted by GAS Man

 

I orgasmed at about the 7:40 mark. She is an undeniable guitar goddess.

[Angry Tele]

shes not that hot. I vote dump her ass.

[xrleroyx]

Things went well. Close thread?

[GAS Man]

Or we could just all promise not to post in it anymore and let it sink beneath the waves. Would you like me to delete my post of the GF's image? If so, no problema bud!

[xrleroyx]

Nah, it just got REALLY off-topic.

[GAS Man]

 

Originally Posted by xrleroyx

Nah, it just got REALLY off-topic.

 

It was kinda fun though. It took off like a general chat room covering topics from Sociology to Women in Music. You should be proud as the muse of this thread.

[aenemated]

don't put personal {censored} on the web, doggie.

[joemonkey]

 

Originally Posted by xrleroyx

Fair.

But not her complaint.

 

I was meaning as a general rule, not just with this situation.

By the way, your song reminded me of Joy Division, which is definitely a good thing.

[Doctor49]

 

Originally Posted by xrleroyx

Things went well. Close thread?

 

yes

 

Originally Posted by aenemated

don't put personal {censored} on the web, doggie.

 

this

[Machine Gun]

 

Originally Posted by kayd_mon

Feminism is just the idea that women and men should be treated equally, receiving equal rights, opportunities, and freedoms. I had to read enough of this philosophy in college, and I can accurately call myself a feminist. A woman who treats men unfairly and calls herself a feminist is severely misinformed; that woman could be called a sexist, I suppose.

 

Bull{censored}. Any "ism" is a cause that seeks puts one group above another.

[Mike Fiasco]

I can only think of one or two well known vitruosas guitarristas. There are several on youtube and I hope at least one or two break out to real careers.