Members jhonendarc Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 Was going through some old pics of mine and came across these of my weird '70s pawn-shop LP "copy", Darla: It's the weirdest LP copy I've ever seen. I found it in a redneck pawn shop for $50, and ever since I've been completely mystified by it. First off, there's no brand name or serial number on the thing. No identifying marks on it anywhere. Secondly, it's retardedly heavy...MUCH heavier than my old LP Custom. And finally, it's body construction is completely odd...it's chambered, and the top seems to be made of spruce. All I can guess is that it's some one-off custom job from the '70s. The only indications I have of a date of manufacture are the checks in the binding/finish and the fact that it has a set of '70s DiMarzio Super Distortions in it. The neck on this thing is super-fat...feels like someone cut a baseball bat in half lengthwise and glued a headstock on one end. The fretboard is a smaller radius than the typical Gibson, but it's flatter than a Fender board. So, just wanted to see what you guys think, and *maybe* one of you guys has a clue as to the origin of this odd little beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sylvesterlowery Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 I think someone here has one like it, just can't remember who.Someone will be along soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hondro Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 well looking at the end of the neck where it meets the body, it looks just like Red Ant's LP Copy. I forget what his is, maybe an Ibanez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jhonendarc Posted January 24, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it's no Ibanez. The fret inlays, headstock, and body shape are all quite different from their old LP copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZX-Matt Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 Aspen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jhonendarc Posted January 24, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 Aspen The wood? The city in Colorado? Care to be a bit more specific? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZX-Matt Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 The wood? The city in Colorado? Care to be a bit more specific? Sorry....Seems some had bolt-on necks, some glued, some w/ Dimarzios...etc...May have depended on if it was an Aspen "Custom" or not. http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Aspen/Les+Paul+Copy/10/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jhonendarc Posted January 24, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 Sorry.... Seems some had bolt-on necks, some glued, some w/ Dimarzios...etc... May have depended on if it was an Aspen "Custom" or not. http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Aspen/Les+Paul+Copy/10/1 Hmm...I can't find any pics, but I'm doubting it's one of those either. They mention the name being inlaid in the headstock (whereas this one is completely blank), covered pickups (these are open-coiled), and double-binding (this is single-bound). Plus, none of them seem to have the strange routing along the edge of the body. The mystery continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Buck62 Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 There were shitloads of Japanese-made copy guitars from the 1970's that had no name on the headstock. Most of them were shipped to the USA to be branded by various department stores or music distributors. But many of these guitars ended up in smaller guitar shops when contracts with certain distributors disolved or weren't honored, or the distributor simply went out of business. The bigger department stores like JC Penney (who sold Matsumoku-made electrics branded as "Skylark" guitars) were more dependable as sellers. That guitar doesn't have a Gibson "Open-Book" headstock that was the basis for the threat of a lawsuit by Gibson USA. The lawsuit was never actually filed, but it spawned the term "lawsuit guitar" which is waaaay over-used these days, and usually inappropriately. That LP copy has what's called a "German Carve" at the edge on the top. This technique was very common from 1979 to 1982 in the Matsumoku plant. It was the key identifying feature of Westbury guitars, which were awesome guitars that also featured stock Dimarzio Super Distortion humbuckers. The German Carve was also used on a really cool guitar called the Epiphone Scroll made at Matsumoku around the same time. I'd say that guitar was definitely made at Matsumoku probably around 1980 or '81. The excessive weight of the guitar, despite being chambered, might be from actual "weights" of thin metal pieces between the slabs of wood in their own little chambered spaces. I've heard of this technique being used in order to give these guitars a heavier feel and counter the "neck dive" from their thick necks. The Japanese thinking at the time was that Americans equated the heavier weight with a "quality" guitar. The only way to find out for sure would be to cut the guitar up, which would be pretty dumb because it's a piece of guitar-making history. Consider yourself "de-mystified" :D Here's a picture of my old Westbury Standard that featured the same German Carve and Dimarzio SD humbuckers like your LP copy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZX-Matt Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 My guess #2: El Degas:http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/El-Degas/Les+Paul/10/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jhonendarc Posted January 24, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 There were shitloads of Japanese-made copy guitars from the 1970's that had no name on the headstock. Most of them were shipped to the USA to be branded by various department stores or music distributors. But many of these guitars ended up in smaller guitar shops when contracts with certain distributors disolved or weren't honored, or the distributor simply went out of business. The bigger department stores like JC Penney (who sold Matsumoku-made electrics branded as "Skylark" guitars) were more dependable as sellers. That guitar doesn't have a Gibson "Open-Book" headstock that was the basis for the threat of a lawsuit by Gibson USA. The lawsuit was never actually filed, but it spawned the term "lawsuit guitar" which is waaaay over-used these days, and usually inappropriately. That LP copy has what's called a "German Carve" at the edge on the top. This technique was very common from 1979 to 1982 in the Matsumoku plant. It was the key identifying feature of Westbury guitars, which were awesome guitars that also featured stock Dimarzio Super Distortion humbuckers. The German Carve was also used on a really cool guitar called the Epiphone Scroll made at Matsumoku around the same time. I'd say that guitar was definitely made at Matsumoku probably around 1980 or '81. The excessive weight of the guitar, despite being chambered, might be from actual "weights" of thin metal pieces between the slabs of wood in their own little chambered spaces. I've heard of this technique being used in order to give these guitars a heavier feel and counter the "neck dive" from their thick necks. The Japanese thinking at the time was that Americans equated the heavier weight with a "quality" guitar. The only way to find out for sure would be to cut the guitar up, which would be pretty dumb because it's a piece of guitar-making history. Consider yourself "de-mystified" :D Here's a picture of my old Westbury Standard that featured the same German Carve and Dimarzio SD humbuckers as your LP copy... Hmm, very interesting... The one difference I can see is that my "german carve" as you put it doesn't go all the way 'round the body. But, it seems like you really know what you're talking about when it comes to these things. Do you have a pic of the headstock of yours? Is it the same shape? Also, according to the last tech I had look at the thing, the pickups in it are almost certainly '70s SDs. Were they making guitars that early on without the "open-book" headstock? Thank you so much for your information...I never thought in a million years I'd find someone who had any clue as to what the hell this thing is. Much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Buck62 Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 Hmm, very interesting... The one difference I can see is that my "german carve" as you put it doesn't go all the way 'round the body. But, it seems like you really know what you're talking about when it comes to these things. Do you have a pic of the headstock of yours? Is it the same shape? Also, according to the last tech I had look at the thing, the pickups in it are almost certainly '70s SDs. Were they making guitars that early on without the "open-book" headstock? Thank you so much for your information...I never thought in a million years I'd find someone who had any clue as to what the hell this thing is. Much appreciated! To my knowledge, the open-book headstock popped up around 1971 on Japanese guitars and continued until 1978, when the last Ibanez LP copies were shipped out early that year. The threatened lawsuit by Norlin-Gibson was around 1976 or '77, but Ibanez already had too many guitars made with the open-book headstock and kept shipping them until they were all gone. Remember, Ibanez was making better Les Pauls than Norlin-Gibson at that time, and were also out-selling Gibson LP's, which is why Gibson threatened to sue. The headstock of my Westbury is totally different than your guitar, but mostly because it was designed in the USA as a completely original guitar line by Westbury Guitars of Westbury, NY. Westbury and Univox were run by a parent company called Unicord. Unicord eventually became the company we all know now as Korg. My 1973 Aria SG copy (called "Aria Model 1932") has the open-book headstock. Several other Japanese copies I've owned in the past have also had it, including my 1975 Penco SG copy, which was made at the Hoshino factory. Anyway, here's a headstock pick of my Westbury Standard, which I (sadly) sold last year... Oh... and your welcome! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Buck62 Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 My guess #2:El Degas:http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/El-Degas/Les+Paul/10/1 El Degas guitars were also manufactured by Matsumoku until 1987 when the Matsumoku factory burned down. El Degas switched manufacturing operations Samick of Korea immediately after, as did most of the other guitar brands who had their guitars manufactured at Matsumoku. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aclarke Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 El Degas guitars were also manufactured by Matsumoku until 1978 when the Matsumoku factory burned down. El Degas switched manufacturing operations Samick of Korea immediately after, as did most of the other guitar brands who had their guitars manufactured at Matsumoku. I think you`ve got your stories confused. Matsumoku did not close until 1987 - which is when production shifted to Korea (Samick). The El Degas marque was aquired by Kaman at that point, and they distributed MIK El Degas guitars (mostly in Canada) as a student model. (I`ve been trying to piece together the El Degas story for a while now) http://www.matsumoku.org/arai_matsumoku.html (the matsumoku story)http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5098583/Trademarks.html (the Kaman link to the name) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyR Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 It reminds me of an old Framus copy. My .02Cdn. J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Buck62 Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 I think you`ve got your stories confused. Matsumoku did not close until 1987 - which is when production shifted to Korea (Samick). The El Degas marque was aquired by Kaman at that point, and they distributed MIK El Degas guitars (mostly in Canada) as a student model. (I`ve been trying to piece together the El Degas story for a while now) http://www.matsumoku.org/arai_matsumoku.html (the matsumoku story) http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5098583/Trademarks.html (the Kaman link to the name) Ummm, I merely transposed the 7 and 8 and meant to say 1987, the result of being tired at 4am while typing. You probably should have figured that out since I posted that Westbury's, Scrolls and other guitars of that type (including the orginal poster's) were being made from 1979 to 1982 at Matsumoku, making it impossible for it to have been burned down in 1978. It's a totally obvious typo, but I'll edit it for you if it makes you happy. Thanx for the keen eye, detective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stormin1155 Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 Whatever it is, it's very cool, and a great guitar for your collection. Makes me want to hit all the small town redneck pawn shops around here. Finding stuff like that is a hellava lot of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sxyryan Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 So... hows it play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members csm Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 So...hows it play? Play? PLAY? Sheeeeeeeeet! What kind of collector are you? You mean you actually PLAY the things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mel Cooley Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 Excellent detective work Buck 62. Considering the period that was built the added "chamber weights" were there due to the common (and evidently never tested) idea that heavier guitars had more sustain. It was a myth propegated by both Gibson and Fender in the '70s when they started using dirt cheap heavy wood. Every maker seemed to jump on the trend without bothering to check the sustain on old and generally lighter wieght '50s era solidbodies for comparison. This is why you see so much brass hardware from that era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Buck62 Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 Excellent detective work Buck 62. Considering the period that was built the added "chamber weights" were there due to the common (and evidently never tested) idea that heavier guitars had more sustain. It was a myth propegated by both Gibson and Fender in the '70s when they started using dirt cheap heavy wood. Every maker seemed to jump on the trend without bothering to check the sustain on old and generally lighter wieght '50s era solidbodies for comparison. This is why you see so much brass hardware from that era. Thanx I love those old Uncle Matt, Hoshino and Fuji GenGakki guitars from the golden age of the copy or "Lawsuit" era. I've probably owned 25 or 30 of them over the past 33 years. I used to have a bunch, but they started becoming collectable and I let some go on Ebay and sold some to a few collectors, doubling and even tripling my original investment. I made enough to buy myself a nice Vox amp and some nice stuff for the studio. I still have my '73 Aria SG in a light natural finish. I love that guitar because I've got huge hands and the neck on that one is like a baseball bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Treborklow Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 The headstock reminds me of an old LP copy named Crestwood I saw in a store last week. I don't know if it's exactly the same, but it's just another name thrown in the ring to check out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members whitegreyblack Posted January 24, 2008 Members Share Posted January 24, 2008 My guess #2:El Degas:http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/El-Degas/Les+Paul/10/1 Nope. 'tis no El Degas. El Degas were all branded as such, and most had the "lawsuit-style" headstocks until well after production moved to Korea. Quite possible it was built in the same factory, but El Degas were a brand of B&J New York (and later Kaman once they bought the brand name). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jhonendarc Posted January 25, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2008 So, tonight I decided to bust Darla out during practice as it's been months since I played her...and WOW, she's one fucking heavy guitar. The neck is beyond huge...I've never seen a Gibby with a neck like this, that's for sure. I have pretty big hands but on some of the more difficult chord shapes I was definitely struggling. However, after playing it for a few songs I switched back to my trusty PRS McCarty and boy did it make a difference. It felt super-light and tiny in my hands, and I felt like I could play anything. It's almost like playing this guitar is the equivalent of baseball players who swing several bats at once before going up to the plate...once you get back on a "normal" guitar it's almost effortless to play. What I was really impressed with tonight was the sound. It was the first time I'd played it through my Mesa F-50, and it just had this meaty punch to palm-mutes that hit me right in the gut. When I switched back to the PRS I actually had to crank the gain a bit more than I did with the whateverthehellthisthingis. Definitely an interesting playing experience! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dcindc Posted January 25, 2008 Members Share Posted January 25, 2008 Interesting thread. The German carve reminded me of my Univox Hi Flyer. Yeah, old SDs got some punch to em! I've got one in the parts box, need to rewire it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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