How will Obama pay for all the stuff he's promising?

[Brother Mango]

Interesting. I want more dead kids. Our mutual friend we had breakfast with at Wishbone in July is the reason why. He's been living there for years and he cares for human life more than anyone I know. He prays daily that we remain.

 

 

I do remember, and I remember the difficult conversation we had.

 

It seems that there are at least 2 ways to look at this.

1. The bigger, faceless, picture. The US is involved in something that it would be highly irresponsible to fail to complete.

2. The individual faces & families that disagree with or don't understand the price they have paid or could pay.

 

#2 is where our friend got stuck. He didn't know what he could say to help a family understand "why."

 

I almost want to parallel the Bush administration with Kenneth Lay & his bunch. Those Enron folks got in too deep. But they could go to jail, employees could quit & they could be replaced with people who believed in or would support Enron's dealings. Kenneth Lay couldn't throw human meat at his problem until it worked itself out.

 

The analogy doesn't work for very long, but it points to the different levels and competing interests & objectives. I have a friend whose brother has done 3 tours in Iraq. He's all about being in the Army & defending freedom, but early in his first tour in Iraq he lost his passion and began to doubt the merit of being in Iraq.

 

Sure, it's flippant and somewhat inflammatory for me to use the term "dead kids" because I understand that it's not that straightforward. It just seems that we're mired in an Economics 101 concept: The Fallacy of Sunk Costs; i.e., throwing good money after bad money.

 

Unfortunately, Iraq isn't an investment where the entrepreneur (GWB) might run out of money (both literally and figuratively), or have someone question his business plan & hold his feet to the fire; thereby bringing the bigger picture in line with the objectives of those that are investing in it.

[rcz]

 

Funny thing though, they are per capita healthier than we in the US and do it at 2/3 the cost.

 

 

i hope the cost figure is also per capita. their population is about 11% of ours.

 

personally, i think the problem with health in the US has nothing to do with medicine. we eat terrible foods and develop chronic illnesses, all while ignoring our doctors' advice to lose weight, reduce blood pressure and cholesterol, exercise more. then we treat those diseases like some kind of inexplicable hassle and medicate them into oblivion. we also treat death like it's a disease that we can treat ourselves out of.

 

it's cultural, and it ain't going to fix itself any time soon.

 

robb.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

The most sensible argument so far! Says who? NEWS FLASH!!! National Healthcare is already here and operating more efficiently than the Military, and MUCH more efficiently than the employer-based system that is breathing its last breath... In Florida, $0.70 of every dollar spent on healthcare is being spent by Medicare. The various programs that comprise Medicare operate along a continuum of Public/Private partnerships that are put out to bid and evaluated frequently for efficiency and quality. The health plans that offer Medicare Advantage programs are subject to stringent medical and financial review. I will say with confidence that the quality of care delivered within a high performing Medicare Advantage program is far superior to that delivered in a traditional Fee-For-Service pay-as-you-go Medicare or employer-based model. And as for tort reform, it's a boondoggle driven by envy and ignorance. Attorney's fees are NOT what's driving up health care costs for us "working stiffs". It's the inequities in the employment-based system that shift the burden of the ever-increasing uninsured onto an ever-diminishing pool of employers who pay into the system. By the way, I make my living selling health insurance to government employers, and I can tell you that something will need to change soon. The current system is unsustainable by any measure.

 

 

Of course 70 cents of every dollar spent in FLORIDA is Medicare. Florida has the oldest population of any state in the country....over 17% are aged 65 or older, compared with the national average of 12%, and the percentage grows annually. What is your point here?

 

Do you have any facts to support your opinion that the Medicare system is "operating much more efficiently than the employer-based system"?

 

Do you have any facts or figures on the cost of malpractice insurance and its increases over the last ten years or so?

 

If you can provide some evidence other than writing with bold font to support your opinions, it would go a long way toward your posts not becoming thread killers.

[Craig Vecchione]

No.

 

Do you have any facts/figures about the relative costs per-capita to provide public vs private healthcare in France? Considering how high your taxes are, it's not immediately evident that the average person is saving anything by paying for public healthcare.

[Perfessor]

Of course 70 cents of every dollar spent in FLORIDA is Medicare. Florida has the oldest population of any state in the country....over 17% are aged 65 or older, compared with the national average of 12%, and the percentage grows annually. What is your point here? Do you have any facts to support your opinion that the Medicare system is "operating much more efficiently than the employer-based system"? Do you have any facts or figures on the cost of malpractice insurance and its increases over the last ten years or so? If you can provide some evidence other than writing with bold font to support your opinions, it would go a long way toward your posts not becoming thread killers.

 

 

If a universal health care system is run like Medicare, we're all in trouble. All seniors do is complain about it. Their Medicare out of pocket costs go up by a higher % than their SS checks each year.

[Craig Vecchione]

As an example of what I'm asking for, here's a Wiki quote regarding medical malpractice in the US:

 

''Doctors' groups, patients, and insurance companies have criticized medical malpractice litigation as expensive, adversarial, unpredictable, and inefficient. They claim that the cost of medical malpractice litigation in the United States has steadily increased at almost 12 percent annually since 1975.[8]Jury Verdict Research, a database of plaintiff and defense verdicts, says awards in medical liability cases increased 43 percent in 1999, from $700,000 to $1,000,000.''

 

If this is true, it certainly would seem to point the finger to at least one substantial cause for skyrocketing healthcare costs. As awards go up, and the numbers of cases rise, insurance costs go up....and the doctors always pass these costs on....or leave practice.

 

Another cause is undoubtedly the mear epidemic increase in obesity and health problems related to it in this country. Calling the US a nation of fatties is an understatement. Just look around you in nay public place. I can remember when I was a kid in school...there was one fat girl in my class. I look at my kids' classes, and they are the exception to that rule...most of the kids are at least mildly obese. This can't be good for anything....if more people are requiring long-term healthcare for chronic conditions like diabetes, the costs go up for everyone. No system, private or public, can support this.

[walkerci]

Yesterday Obama promised Louisiana a levee system that will withstand a catagory 5 hurricane!

It would probably be cheaper to give every resident of New Orleans a million dollars and tell them to leave the city.

[burdizzos]

Bring on the socialism. The sooner we get to it, the sooner it can fail and kill millions or the sooner it can succeed and create a utopia.

 

Either way, I'll be fine.

[fretless]

He could borrow from Hillary .

[Perfessor]

It would probably be cheaper to give every resident of New Orleans a million dollars and tell them to leave the city.

That's what I mean!!


Are people buying this stuff or is it all an emotional high?

[Bassin' 'Round]

I still don't understand why people hate taxes so much. They take my money and use it to provide nessesary services to better our society. Seems like a good deal to me.

 

...roflmao...

[Bassin' 'Round]

I hear people complaining about Taxes all the time. I don't get it either. If it wasn't for Taxes paying for our Hospitals, I'd be dead.

 

...more roflmao...

[walkerci]

That's what I mean!! Are people buying this stuff or is it all an emotional high?

BTW, I am not advocating giving a million dollars to anyone.

I was simply pointing out the stupidity of Obama's proposal.

If someone chooses to live below sea level, river level, lake level, etc in a hurricane zone and they get flooded out, that is a tragedy.
But how is their bad decision a national problem?

Does it make any sense to use city, state, or federal money to rebuild housing in a flood zone?

Come on, this is common sense people.

[bnyswonger]

If a universal health care system is run like Medicare, we're all in trouble. All seniors do is complain about it. Their Medicare out of pocket costs go up by a higher % than their SS checks each year.

 

 

Could that partially be because medicare isn't allowed to negotiate perscription drug prices, and the current medicare copay arrangement was in fact conceived and written by the pharmaceutical companies?

 

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/22/2314

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Could that partially be because medicare isn't allowed to negotiate perscription drug prices, and the current medicare copay arrangement was in fact conceived and written by the pharmaceutical companies? http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/22/2314

 

 

Now I'm confused. Earlier you were applauding Beetl's posts claiming that Medicare was a well-run organization that benefits us more than private healthcare. Now you seem to be citing evidence that it's not exactly so. Which way is it?

 

These are the kind of problems I see with socialized medicine. Since it's funded with tax money....the bottomless well....I see little or no incentive for it to be run efficiently. It'll surely be big enough for any politician to claim it's not "his" problem, but it'll become a great campaigning platform to promise reform, etc.

 

I'm still waiting to see evidence of an up side.

[burdizzos]

The upside is fairness, dammit.

 

Why should people who work hard and make good decisions receive special treatment?

[Craig Vecchione]

The upside is fairness, dammit. Why should people who work hard and make good decisions receive special treatment?

 

To crosspost.....

[bnyswonger]

Now I'm confused. Earlier you were applauding Beetl's posts claiming that Medicare was a well-run organization that benefits us more than private healthcare. Now you seem to be citing evidence that it's not exactly so. Which way is it? .

 

 

Well Craig, I think that the evidence points to a failure of oversight and corruption, dont you? Who's watch was that on?

 

BeeTL said the current system is unsustainable. Doesn't it make sense to at least consider some new ideas?

[lug]

Well Craig, I think that the evidence points to a failure of oversight and corruption, dont you? Who's watch was that on? BeeTL said the current system is unsustainable. Doesn't it make sense to at least consider some new ideas?

 

 

Um...Medicare has be F'ed up for a lot longer than any one particular "watch". Ask any Doc trying to use it over the last 20 to 30 years.

[burdizzos]

 

Um...Medicare has be F'ed up for a lot longer than any one particular "watch". Ask any Doc trying to use it over the last 20 to 30 years.

 

 

Pfft, everyone knows that healthcare was not an issue until GWB got into office. Hillary tried to make it perfecter in the 90s and Bush has just screwed it up because he wants his buddies who run the drug companies to make bigger profits.

[walkerci]

Um...Medicare has be F'ed up for a lot longer than any one particular "watch". Ask any Doc trying to use it over the last 20 to 30 years.

 

 

I was doing Medical Billing for some of the biggest hospitals, clinics, and private practices in New York Metro area about 20 years ago, and I can verify that. The software that I wrote submitted and reconciled about 1/3 of the Medicare and Medicaid claims in NYC at that time.

[walkerci]

The upside is fairness, dammit. Why should people who work hard and make good decisions receive special treatment?

[burdizzos]

 

Oh yeah?

 

 

[lug]

I was doing Medical Billing for some of the biggest hospitals, clinics, and private practices in New York Metro area about 20 years ago, and I can verify that. The software that I wrote submitted and reconciled about 1/3 of the Medicare and Medicaid claims in NYC at that time.

 

 

My father-inlaw was an MD. At one time he had to hire an extra person in the office just to handle all the medicaid patent's paperwork. This was in addition to the regular person who handled the "normal" insurance. He eventually got out of private practice and went into industrial medicine largly due to the hassles.

[NeonVomit]

Ok. So the best thing is to leave stuff the way it is?