How will Obama pay for all the stuff he's promising?

[Jugghaid]

Why do some in government want punitive taxes for those who make large profits? Where do they think gov't gets its money in the first place? If taxes are jacked up too high, businesses will contract, the market will suffer, and eventually overall revenues will fall. I can't stand pompous rich people any more than the next person, but I understand why it's not a good idea to penalize them for their success.

 

 

Because it's much easier for politicians to promote an "Us against Them" mentality by pitting class against class to garner support and build a voting bloc than actually do {censored} that's beneficial to everyone. It also makes it harder to line their own {censored}ing pockets if they are being fortright and honest with people. Mostly it's about maintaining power by being divisive. what do you think "entitlement" programs are all about? They are simply about keeping people in their current status while giving them the illusion you are on their side. Fostering jealousy and envy.

[Jazz Ad]

 

Sure thing. Healthcare here is very good quality, but incredibly expensive. Having the government handle it will increase costs even further, while doing nothing to improve or maintain quality. For proof, look at any government-run agency in this country . If you can find one that's well run and efficient, let me know.

This is a strange issue.

Around here, public hospitals cost way less than private hospitals.

Same for public electricity, public schools and public water compared to their private counterparts.

It's pretty easy to understand. In public agencies, money is spent toward service, not toward making money for investors or owners. Public agencies don't need to make benefits, just cover their costs.

Why it wouldn't be this way in USA remains a mystery to me.

[bnyswonger]

This is a strange issue. Around here, public hospitals cost way less than private hospitals. Same for public electricity, public schools and public water compared to their private counterparts. It's pretty easy to understand. In public agencies, money is spent toward service, not toward making money for investors or owners. Public agencies don't need to make benefits, just cover their costs. Why it wouldn't be this way in USA remains a mystery to me.

 

 

Because here, the guys that make the big dough run the show. Sameasisteverwas.

 

Canada is always being held up by righty talkers here as the epitome of evil nationalized medicine. Funny thing though, they are per capita healthier than we in the US and do it at 2/3 the cost.

 

It's a monumental and difficult issue...but the current system has financially ruined too many folks for me to believe that we can't do better.

[BeeTL]

 

 

Says who?

 

NEWS FLASH!!!

 

National Healthcare is already here and operating more efficiently than the Military, and MUCH more efficiently than the employer-based system that is breathing its last breath...

 

In Florida, $0.70 of every dollar spent on healthcare is being spent by Medicare.

 

The various programs that comprise Medicare operate along a continuum of Public/Private partnerships that are put out to bid and evaluated frequently for efficiency and quality. The health plans that offer Medicare Advantage programs are subject to stringent medical and financial review.

 

I will say with confidence that the quality of care delivered within a high performing Medicare Advantage program is far superior to that delivered in a traditional Fee-For-Service pay-as-you-go Medicare or employer-based model.

 

And as for tort reform, it's a boondoggle driven by envy and ignorance.

 

Attorney's fees are NOT what's driving up health care costs for us "working stiffs". It's the inequities in the employment-based system that shift the burden of the ever-increasing uninsured onto an ever-diminishing pool of employers who pay into the system.

 

By the way, I make my living selling health insurance to government employers, and I can tell you that something will need to change soon. The current system is unsustainable by any measure.

[bnyswonger]

Thanks for the input BeeTL.

Nice to hear from a guy who knows what he's talking about.

[BeeTL]

Thanks for the input BeeTL. Nice to hear from a guy who knows what he's talking about.

Thank you!

I will say that the last time I posted on one of these threads I had a "Thread Killer" effect...



I get so tired of the old arguments about big-government vs. small-government being trotted out without any consideration whatsoever about the actual FACTS that should be evaluated...

I know...facts are boring.

Here's a primer anyway:

http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670.pdf

...and a two pager:

http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670.pdf

[dravenzouk]

It's a monumental and difficult issue...but the current system has financially ruined too many folks for me to believe that we can't do better.

To paraphrase Jello Biafra - "C'mon, this is America. If WE can't do better than this, you tell me who can"

[rhat]

This is a strange issue. Around here, public hospitals cost way less than private hospitals. Same for public electricity, public schools and public water compared to their private counterparts. It's pretty easy to understand. In public agencies, money is spent toward service, not toward making money for investors or owners. Public agencies don't need to make benefits, just cover their costs. Why it wouldn't be this way in USA remains a mystery to me.

 

 

Do you really understand how fuked up your economy is where you live? What is your un employment rate? what is your debt to GDP ratio. How high are your taxes? could your country defend itself in a major military conflict?

[Kontra]

This is a strange issue. Around here, public hospitals cost way less than private hospitals. Same for public electricity, public schools and public water compared to their private counterparts. It's pretty easy to understand. In public agencies, money is spent toward service, not toward making money for investors or owners. Public agencies don't need to make benefits, just cover their costs. Why it wouldn't be this way in USA remains a mystery to me.

 

+1

[bnyswonger]

Do you really understand how fuked up your economy is where you live? What is your un employment rate? what is your debt to GDP ratio. How high are your taxes? could your country defend itself in a major military conflict?

You gonna enlighten this gentlemen, Jazzy?

[Brother Mango]

So if you want your payroll taxes doubled, healthcare rationing, a full blown depression, and the few remaining good jobs to be sent to the Far East; you have two really good candidates: Barack Hussein Osama and Hillary Clinton.

 

 

Either that, or more dead kids in a war with a purpose that remains a mystery.

 

Dead kids? Higher taxes? Dead kids? Full blown depression?

 

McCain has already promised us more dead kids, and I don't envision him failing on that promise.

 

Ah ... But I think I'd rather opt for the full blown depression.

[Kindness]

Either that, or more dead kids in a war with a purpose that remains a mystery. Dead kids? Higher taxes? Dead kids? Full blown depression? McCain has already promised us more dead kids, and I don't envision him failing on that promise. Ah ... But I think I'd rather opt for the full blown depression.

 

 

Interesting. I want more dead kids. Our mutual friend we had breakfast with at Wishbone in July is the reason why. He's been living there for years and he cares for human life more than anyone I know. He prays daily that we remain.

[Crescent Seven]

I just can't wait for my father's generation to hit age 70, because by then there will be socialized medicine, and my (much smaller) generation, and our kid's (even smaller) generation will get to pay for them to live another 30 years on our dime! Whoopee!!!

There's nothing I love more than seeing several hundred dollars a month of my earnings straight disappear. I wish they'd just go ahead and take all of it, and give me food vouchers and a nice uniform apartment to live in. That would be much better.
C7

[rikshaw]

There's nothing I love more than seeing several hundred dollars a month of my earnings straight disappear. I wish they'd just go ahead and take all of it, and give me food vouchers and a nice uniform apartment to live in. That would be much better. C7

 

 

yup. just give them a few years.

[dravenzouk]

........I wish they'd just go ahead and take all of it, and give me food vouchers and a nice uniform apartment to live in. That would be much better....... C7

 

Yeah, that's exactly the way life is in Canada and France. They've even gone so far as to issue uniform clothing - everyone gets matching coveralls and a swell little hat to wear. It's just like one big happy commune!

[rikshaw]

Yeah, that's exactly the way life is in Canada and France. They've even gone so far as to issue uniform clothing - everyone gets matching coveralls and a swell little hat to wear. It's just like one big happy commune!

 

 

who are you?

[lug]

Do you really understand how fuked up your economy is where you live? What is your un employment rate? what is your debt to GDP ratio. How high are your taxes? could your country defend itself in a major military conflict?

France's Debt is 66 percent of it's GDP (US is 65 percent of it's GDP)

Unemployment stands around 8 percent and the tax rate....



I was suprized to see that the US has one of the highest corporate taxes in the world.

[J.]

It's a monumental and difficult issue...but the current system has financially ruined too many folks for me to believe that we can't do better.

 

 

I agree with this 100%. I think we can do better. I'm pretty conservative when it comes to economic issues (obviously), but I still have a problem with people being denied care due to inability to pay. I'm not talking about ER stuff where everyone gets treated regardless - I'm talking about the routine care that could make some of the eventual ER visits (as well as debilitating conditions and death) go away.

 

Jugghaid posted a statistic (it might have been over on ebassist) about the climbing percentage of bankruptcies caused by medical bills. I wonder how much the average hospital has to write off due to patients who file Chapter 7 because they can't pay their huge bill.

[Jugghaid]

Attorney's fees are NOT what's driving up health care costs for us "working stiffs". It's the inequities in the employment-based system that shift the burden of the ever-increasing uninsured onto an ever-diminishing pool of employers who pay into the system. By the way, I make my living selling health insurance to government employers, and I can tell you that something will need to change soon. The current system is unsustainable by any measure.

 

 

Okay, what inequities exactly are you talking about? And trust me I know all about the burders on employers. I am one and I pay 100% of every one of my employees health, dental and vision policies.

[walkerci]

The most sensible argument so far! Says who? NEWS FLASH!!! National Healthcare is already here and operating more efficiently than the Military, and MUCH more efficiently than the employer-based system that is breathing its last breath... In Florida, $0.70 of every dollar spent on healthcare is being spent by Medicare. The various programs that comprise Medicare operate along a continuum of Public/Private partnerships that are put out to bid and evaluated frequently for efficiency and quality. The health plans that offer Medicare Advantage programs are subject to stringent medical and financial review. I will say with confidence that the quality of care delivered within a high performing Medicare Advantage program is far superior to that delivered in a traditional Fee-For-Service pay-as-you-go Medicare or employer-based model. And as for tort reform, it's a boondoggle driven by envy and ignorance. Attorney's fees are NOT what's driving up health care costs for us "working stiffs". It's the inequities in the employment-based system that shift the burden of the ever-increasing uninsured onto an ever-diminishing pool of employers who pay into the system. By the way, I make my living selling health insurance to government employers, and I can tell you that something will need to change soon. The current system is unsustainable by any measure.

 

 

You make a good point in that there are too few employers paying into the system.

 

But if you think that ridiculous malpractice insurance costs don't get passed on to medical bills, then your head is in the sand. Who then pays the $100,000+ a year cost of malpractice insurance that most doctors have?

 

Another massive problem that you overlook is the cost of providing care to uninsured illegal (and legal) aliens. Which frankly is NOT the taxpayer's responsibility and should be billed back to the countries those people came from. This is 30% of the cost in many large states.

[jasper383]

I just can't wait for my father's generation to hit age 70, because by then there will be socialized medicine, and my (much smaller) generation, and our kid's (even smaller) generation will get to pay for them to live another 30 years on our dime! Whoopee!!! There's nothing I love more than seeing several hundred dollars a month of my earnings straight disappear. I wish they'd just go ahead and take all of it, and give me food vouchers and a nice uniform apartment to live in. That would be much better. C7

Don't forget the government issued vehicle.

[Perfessor]

But. We have huge cost overruns in the military. We seem to keep that around. I've known lots of people in the military and I've never heard one of them extoll the efficient nature of the military. And. I remember the Pentagon spending $27,000 for a screwdriver. I believe in the military in principle . :poke: Seems to me if you think we need it, then it's worth all the extra hassle and cost.

 

 

There's no such thing as a $27,000 screw driver. How do you think money is funneled to secret programs? The stealth jets and drone aircraft could not have been funded by the "black budget" used for secret military stuff. They were astronomical in cost and the reason China and Russia were 20 years behind in developing them. The new jets already make the stealth fighter old tech. I know a guy who's kid makes $25 per month extra for being in Iraq. The humvee he drives is an old beater they were going to decommision but instead refurbished. We kept the newest equipment here.

 

Fact is wars stimulate the economy. WWII is what brought the country out of the great depression. True there was a lessing of the depression before the war but unemployment was still over 10% until the war. When the Vietnam War was over the US economy hit the doldrums. Just sayin' this because so much has been blamed on the war in Iraq. It's a deversion really.

[rcz]

Do you have any idea whay kind of margin auto dealers work on?

 

 

i know they're much smaller than the example that i used.

 

 

Also look at the percentages compared to dollars. In huge corporations 10 basis points may very well equiate to tens of millions of dollars.

 

 

fractions are a beautiful thing. not everything is done in whole percentages. however, is is very much reality that when costs rise, consumer prices don't necessarily rise with them. and sometimes the margin the sacrificial lamb in an attempt to maintain profits. sometimes the consumer price rises.

 

 

EXXON just posted record profits for the year. I have heard a ton of people bitch about it.but do you have any idea what type of profit margin they run on?

 

 

according to this information from the california energy commission seems to indicate the same as your figure. costs + profits is about 14.4% of the consumer price in california.

 

 

However, if you take 5% in additional taxes, then you are looking at halving their profit margin. That's ~ $20 billion in revenue taken from a company. how do you think that will afftect jobs? Prices? Employee benefits? One bad year can sink the ship so to speak.

 

 

i wasn't advocating that prices should never change when costs rise, or that there is something wrong with raising prices with increasing costs. it's just not as causal as the consensus around here would indicate.

 

robb.

[Jazz Ad]

You gonna enlighten this gentlemen, Jazzy?

No.

[Perfessor]

Yesterday Obama promised Louisiana a levee system that will withstand a catagory 5 hurricane!