Members Svi Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 Companies don't pay taxes as far as I can tell. If corporate taxes are raised, those tax increases are passed along directly to the consumer. Companies do pay taxes, and hefty ones at that. I hear my dad bitching about it every month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Les_Izzmor Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 The problem with entitlement programs in the United States is the fact that they hardly ever come in at or under the projected price tag. They're always budget busters that cost waaaaaaaaaay more than the people are ever told they would. I break from my conservative ranks because I believe in socialized healthcare in principle. However, I don't think it's a feasible reality in the United States. I predict horrendous cost overruns and eternal waiting times for services. Since the cost will be far greater than originally planned for, the government will have to start rationing care in an effort to control it. But. We have huge cost overruns in the military. We seem to keep that around. I've known lots of people in the military and I've never heard one of them extoll the efficient nature of the military. And. I remember the Pentagon spending $27,000 for a screwdriver. I believe in the military in principle. :poke: Seems to me if you think we need it, then it's worth all the extra hassle and cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members picker13 Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 If, and I do mean if, those programs go into effect, the combination of a democratic congress and adnministration WILL bring back 70% tax rates. Can you imagine giving the government 70% of what you earn? 70%??? When that happens, watch the economy take a dive. The "rich" will stop all spending of "disposable" income, as there will be none. Investments will dry up, the markets and everyone's pension funds will shrivel like raisins, and when the "fed" cuts interest rates to next to 0.00% to get things going, inflation will return in the double digits. Fortunately, there are some powerful lobbyists and some serious money that will fight nationalized health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 But. We have huge cost overruns in the military. We seem to keep that around.I've known lots of people in the military and I've never heard one of them extoll the efficient nature of the military. And. I remember the Pentagon spending $27,000 for a screwdriver. I believe in the military in principle. :poke:Seems to me if you think we need it, then it's worth all the extra hassle and cost. The question is: Will Healthcare quality improve under the Government. Will Healthcare be more cost efficient under the Government. Will more people have access under the Government. Will Healthcare be more time efficient under the Government. My guess is 1 out of 4. My fear is that to make the budgets, Docs and other health care professionals will eventually be making a lot less. Look at Medicare/medicaid payments. Most Docs couldn't survive if they had full patient loads of people covered by the government programs. I don't know why we think newer Government programs would work any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mmb Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 Companies do pay taxes, and hefty ones at that. I hear my dad bitching about it every month. Yes, but to maintain a profit margin, any tax increases are passed down to the consumer in the way of higher prices. I think the original comment was higher corp taxes will always be passed directly to consumers so the idea of "sticking it" to companies doesn't pass the sniff test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mmb Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 The question is: Will Healthcare quality improve under the Government. Will Healthcare be more cost efficient under the Government. Will more people have access under the Government. Will Healthcare be more time efficient under the Government. My guess is 1 out of 4. My fear is that to make the budgets, Docs and other health care professionals will eventually be making a lot less. Look at Medicare/medicaid payments. Most Docs couldn't survive if they had full patient loads of people covered by the government programs. I don't know why we think newer Government programs would work any better.Maybe if there were Tort reform, Docs wouldn't have to be hemorrhaging money to insurance companies...Naw, who am I kidding.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 Maybe if there were Tort reform, Docs wouldn't have to be hemorrhaging money to insurance companies... Naw, who am I kidding.... +1000000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thelurker Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 Maybe if there were Tort reform, Docs wouldn't have to be hemorrhaging money to insurance companies... Naw, who am I kidding.... This is why I think it's unethical for insurance companies to run HMO's and sell malpractice insurance. First they limit the doctor's choices in care, then they bill him to protect himself when he gets sued for following treatments that weren't his first choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members picker13 Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 BTW, it isn't physician fees or even physician liability costs that are driving the cost of healthcare up in double digit percentages each year. What is it? Technology. New procedures, new drugs, new tests, new equipment, new devices all enter the market place with high $$$$ price tags. The insurance companies sort of have to pay, as the insureds are demanding the "latest and greatest" even though something that's 20 years old will do just as well. For instance, how many of you suffer from reflux or chronic heartburn and take a proton pump inhibitor like "Nexxium"? Years ago, when Prilosec's patent was about to run out, it's manufacturer decided to change the formulation from a racemic mixture of the drug to a pure form, changing the name to "Nexxium" and increasing the retail price to a few dollars a pill. Nexxium samples became like gold. What I've found is that I can buy OTC Prilosec and it still does just as good a job as it ever did, for a great deal less than Nexxium, even if I only have to pay a co-pay. But those with better insurance plans will continue to get the Nexxium. The drug company gets rich, the insurance company passes the costs on to the insured by increased rates. When was the last time your health insurance rates didn't go up? Sure, the drug companies will scream R&D costs have to be recouped. But all the drug companies are now international giants. They do their R&D and get their new drugs approved over seas. Then after years of "free" on-market human trials, they can decide if it's worth the effort and expense to go for FDA approval, already having recovered the cost of R&D from international sales. Wonder why drug costs so much in the USA? Two reasons: 1) the cost of FDA approval and regulation, and 2) product liability costs (you've all seen the lawyer ads and heard of the multimillion/billion awards). In addition, many of those with insurance never see the actual costs of their medicines, so the cost remains hidden from the actual payer. If you don't know your paying $3.50 a pill, ,you won't get mad about it. If you don't have insurance, you simply say "Crap, I can't afford that." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thelurker Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 Sure, the drug companies will scream R&D costs have to be recouped. But all the drug companies are now international giants. They do their R&D and get their new drugs approved over seas. Then after years of "free" on-market human trials, they can decide if it's worth the effort and expense to go for FDA approval, already having recovered the cost of R&D from international sales. Wonder why drug costs so much in the USA? Two reasons: 1) the cost of FDA approval and regulation, and 2) product liability costs (you've all seen the lawyer ads and heard of the multimillion/billion awards). In addition, many of those with insurance never see the actual costs of their medicines, so the cost remains hidden from the actual payer. If you don't know your paying $3.50 a pill, ,you won't get mad about it. If you don't have insurance, you simply say "Crap, I can't afford that." By the same token, though, people complain if lifesaving drugs aren't provided to poor nations, and then complain that they don't defray the cost of it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 I still don't understand why people hate taxes so much. They take my money and use it to provide nessesary services to better our society. Seems like a good deal to me.That's because there are different kind of taxes you're talking about.As TJF said, if you own property (at least here in Tx) you pay your hospital tax, along with your property, school district, etc., even if you DON'T receive those benefits. But we gotta take care of those non-producing and taxpaying citizens! Where exactly do you see those reported on your Form 1040 every year? You think the Fed gov't. pays for that?PIT (pers income taxes) don't go towards your day to day benefits. That's what you pay your city, county and state taxes for. The gov't is blatantly unaccountable for where PIT's go and to where it's allocated (in truth, at least). And again it's not for personal services or benefits. If it were, people wouldn't complain (or as much at least). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members picker13 Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 By the same token, though, people complain if lifesaving drugs aren't provided to poor nations, and then complain that they don't defray the cost of it here. To me, that's a charity issue, and shoud be what the UN and WHO as well as other organizations take care of. If i'ts important to you, donate funds and/or time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 BTW, it isn't physician fees or even physician liability costs that are driving the cost of healthcare up in double digit percentages each year. What is it? Technology. New procedures, new drugs, new tests, new equipment, new devices all enter the market place with high $$$$ price tags. The insurance companies sort of have to pay, as the insureds are demanding the "latest and greatest" even though something that's 20 years old will do just as well. For instance, how many of you suffer from reflux or chronic heartburn and take a proton pump inhibitor like "Nexxium"? Years ago, when Prilosec's patent was about to run out, it's manufacturer decided to change the formulation from a racemic mixture of the drug to a pure form, changing the name to "Nexxium" and increasing the retail price to a few dollars a pill. Nexxium samples became like gold. What I've found is that I can buy OTC Prilosec and it still does just as good a job as it ever did, for a great deal less than Nexxium, even if I only have to pay a co-pay. But those with better insurance plans will continue to get the Nexxium. The drug company gets rich, the insurance company passes the costs on to the insured by increased rates. When was the last time your health insurance rates didn't go up? Sure, the drug companies will scream R&D costs have to be recouped. But all the drug companies are now international giants. They do their R&D and get their new drugs approved over seas. Then after years of "free" on-market human trials, they can decide if it's worth the effort and expense to go for FDA approval, already having recovered the cost of R&D from international sales. Wonder why drug costs so much in the USA? Two reasons: 1) the cost of FDA approval and regulation, and 2) product liability costs (you've all seen the lawyer ads and heard of the multimillion/billion awards). In addition, many of those with insurance never see the actual costs of their medicines, so the cost remains hidden from the actual payer. If you don't know your paying $3.50 a pill, ,you won't get mad about it. If you don't have insurance, you simply say "Crap, I can't afford that." In essence, our health care costs more becuase the lazy ass rest of the world waits for us to invent all the cool stuff whilst they reap the benefits and we pay the costs. Hey rest-of-the-world, you suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rcz Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 I hear people complaining about Taxes all the time. I don't get it either. If it wasn't for Taxes paying for our Hospitals, I'd be dead. there is such a thing as a hospital that isn't run by the government. it may well be different in australia, but in the US, there is a long tradition of all sorts of things being done in the private sector and not funded by the government, from health care, to charity and retirement. robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 I still don't understand why people hate taxes so much. They take my money and use it to provide nessesary services to better our society. Seems like a good deal to me. I'll go out on a limb here and take a guess that you haven't paid alot of taxes during your lifetime - another guess is that you're fairly young... I'll apologize if I'm wrong... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 I'll go out on a limb here and take a guess that you haven't paid alot of taxes during your lifetime - another guess is that you're fairly young... I'll apologize if I'm wrong... - georgestrings I'm actually fine with his theory, just as long as they take my "share" from his bank account... Because I care about the money I make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Les_Izzmor Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 The question is: Will Healthcare quality improve under the Government. Will Healthcare be more cost efficient under the Government. Will more people have access under the Government. Will Healthcare be more time efficient under the Government. My guess is 1 out of 4. My fear is that to make the budgets, Docs and other health care professionals will eventually be making a lot less. Look at Medicare/medicaid payments. Most Docs couldn't survive if they had full patient loads of people covered by the government programs. I don't know why we think newer Government programs would work any better. I'm perfectly aware of that. All I was saying was J. said he believed in universal healthcare in principle, but thought it was impractical due to cost overruns and gov't inefficiency. Which are two things the military is famous for. So. By that logic the military should be disbanded, or we should give universal health care a shot. I think my feelings on the topic can be best summed up by paraphrasing Berkeley Breathed: The gov't doesn't have brains enough to pick its nose, let alone run a universal health care system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NeonVomit Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 It's pretty heartbreaking to see your hard earned cash disappear into government coffers. Then again if you see it being spent on new roads and schools, it takes a bit of the sting off. If you see it being spent in Iraq, I dunno... I've never experienced that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 It's pretty heartbreaking to see your hard earned cash disappear into government coffers.Then again if you see it being spent on new roads and schools, it takes a bit of the sting off.If you see it being spent in Iraq, I dunno... I've never experienced that. Iraq currently consumes about 3% of our budget. Heathcare currently takes about 20% and this will go up quite a bit if National healthcare is implemented. Still I'd rather spend on this than some of the other stuff the Government does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NeonVomit Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 Why is it being spent on healthcare seen as a bad thing? I don't get it. I guess I'm too used to the way things work over on this side of the pond. Can someone please explain to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 But. We have huge cost overruns in the military. We seem to keep that around.I've known lots of people in the military and I've never heard one of them extoll the efficient nature of the military. And. I remember the Pentagon spending $27,000 for a screwdriver. I believe in the military in principle. :poke:Seems to me if you think we need it, then it's worth all the extra hassle and cost. That's the problem. We need a military. We don't need federal programs that amount to welfare. Do you really want your healthcare handled by the same folks who brought you the $27,000 screwdriver? Because that's the quality of services you can expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 Why is it being spent on healthcare seen as a bad thing? I don't get it. I guess I'm too used to the way things work over on this side of the pond. Can someone please explain to me? Sure thing. Healthcare here is very good quality, but incredibly expensive. Having the government handle it will increase costs even further, while doing nothing to improve or maintain quality. For proof, look at any government-run agency in this country. If you can find one that's well run and efficient, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NeonVomit Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 Ok. What about people who can't afford the high-quality healthcare? From what I gather, insurance over there is something akin to a massive scam. Or have I got it wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 Ok. What about people who can't afford the high-quality healthcare? From what I gather, insurance over there is something akin to a massive scam. Or have I got it wrong? Well, for one example, Pennsylvania has CHIP, which guarantees health coverage for children regardless of family income. You pay what you can afford, and can use the same doctors and facilities as everyone else. The problem isn't insurance coverage, it's malpractice insurance. Thanks, *as usual* to lawyers, doctors have to pay outrageous premiums to protect themselves against lawsuits. This drives up the cost of everything related to healthcare, including.....your health insurance plan. The only people profiting from this are lawyers *as usual*, and doctors are leaving areas or practices where premiums are especially high, endangering the quality and availability of care. Once again, kill all the lawyers, problem is solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted February 7, 2008 Members Share Posted February 7, 2008 Ok. What about people who can't afford the high-quality healthcare? From what I gather, insurance over there is something akin to a massive scam. Or have I got it wrong?Sucks, but it's tough. We all shouldn't be grouped together in one big pile, and then distributed evenly. I think that's called communism or socialism or another -ism that we don't have here. I wouldn't say insurance is a scam, it's just a hassle. Insurance is high b/c it has to be b/c we have 50 billion low-rent trial lawyers looking to make their "clients" a quick buck. $1-10M in insurance coverage for a medical practitioner isn't chump change writing that check each month. I'm not saying this the only reason, but it's not like it helps... And any company who incurs higher costs is just gonna pass it on to you, the consumer, because you don't have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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