Cheap, reliable, pratical ways to record gigs?

[Badside]

I was looking at those new M-Audio 24/96 digital recorders, which would be a kick-ass way to record gigs. But at 500$ I'm not really sure I'd want to bring it everywhere on the road, leaving it beside the board where anyone can take it. But there are other ways to do so on a much cheaper budget.

 

The easiest cheapest way I can find: VCR! I tried that trick last friday, simply took my Hi-Fi VCR to the gig, connected the "Tape out" from the board to the RCA inputs. The audio quality is quite amazing, much better than I had hoped. Plus you can hook a camcorder to the video ins (although with modern digital camcorders, you might still want to record the video to the camera's tape, but their audio suck imho). You don't have to worry about clipping converters and the media is cheap as can be. Just leave it in SP for the best quality. VCRs are so cheap...

 

Only downsides: it's a big piece and you have to transfer it in realtime to your computer.

 

When a VCR is too big, I have another recorder which is a zero-hassle: a MP3 player with a line-in. It's not so easy to find one, they usually just have a mic. I have a really cheap Koss 256mb player. Since it encodes at 128k when recording, that's around 4 hours of recording! And the quality is much better than I would've expected. This thing probably uses the cheapest A/D converters and the cheapest limiter (yes, it has a limiter to prevent clipping) and the cheapest CPU (yet it encodes in real-time). You won't release a commercial live CD using this recorder, but it's an amazing tool to review your performance. Again, you just hook it up to the tape outs and hit record!

The one thing I absolutely hate about it is that sometimes it skips (probably the CPU is overloaded since it encodes in real time), so it's only for personal use and syncing with a video is impossible. But it's cheap, doesn't need media (flash memory) and highly portable and hassle free.

 

How do you record your gigs?

[Meatball Fulton]

Been using a Sharp MiniDisc since before mp3 and flash recorders were a gleam in their designer's eyes.

 

Might not be the best solution today but it's cheap ($200 for the recorder, $1.50 per blank disc) and can record a 3 hour gig on batteries with enough charge left over to listen to it on the drive home.

[fastplant]

Any recording device will do. I usually bring my DAT recorder, but I've also brought an analog-in cd burner on occasion. You could even just bring a tape recorder that has the proper inputs. Anything off the board is going to sound pretty decent.

[Electric Catfish]

I've used a little Sony reel-to-reel (quarter inch) 2 track with a borrowed mixer (just one of those little 2 channel Behringer deals) and 2 57's, one on each side of the room.

 

Sounded great, but it's a hassle changing the tapes, and sometimes the tape runs out mid-jam (each side of the tape lasts around 25 minutes, if I'm not bad mistaken), but it sounds considerably better than cassette (which has similar issues, though switching/flipping the tape is easier and quicker).

 

Our drummer has a digital CD burner, so I just run RCA's straight out of the machine into it...If I was doing anything other than archiving shows, I'd probably add some compression and do some e.q. tweaking.

 

edit: I'd forgotten that I've got a 4 track reel-to-reel that I didn't have when I did those recordings...Next live show I do, I'll probably run 2 tracks off the board, 2 of the room mic's, and mix to taste (especially if everything's run through the board).

Steve

[Narcosynthesis]

a minidisk recorder is a good bet, my older sony one could record from a headphones or line out jack, so just plug it into a suitable output on a pa

you can get about 80 minutes on a normal disk, or double/quadruple that on long play so you should be abelt o get a whole show on a disk at least (if you are playing for more than 80 minutes, you should at least have a short break where you could change disks

 

much smaller than a vcr too

 

David

[Singin' Dave]

+1 for MD player. I went through quite a few Sony's (n707 and rn37) before finding my Sharp 722---awesome bullt proof unit compared to the fragile sony's. Use it with a Sony 957 mic (higer end Stereo mic, XLR-->1/8") and it does a nice job as a portable recording rig for the $250 all in I paid (bought the mic new for $190 and the recorder used w/ 8 reuseable discs for $60). This along with my $100 CD burner and I'm in business from recording to getting out CDs to bandmates.

[Igneroid]

I have a Sony mini disc I use for stereo recording of gigs but once in a while if we are using a board with lots of guzzinta/guzzoutas, I bring my old Yamaha 8 track minidisc(uses a disc that looks and holds the same amount of data but costs way more). That way I can mix a bit if levels are wonky...heh...once the drummers monitor was soooo loud that I got a better vocal track from the snare mic..ha...Lotsa phasing crap happenin sometimes...tough mixing live stuff ya.

[JBJ]

minidisc into the desk is ok if the desk know what they're doing but some bands Ive heard doing that are terrible, just really bad mixes. i suppose thats more to do with their stage volume being too loud so he's rolled back the backline volume to balance out the FoH. it can sound really bad if theyve got too much reverb or whatever on any of the tracks too.

 

we set up my digital 12 track at a gig a few years ago with a coupla mics placed round the stage and you get the audience, stage sound and general atmosphere picked up much better so that it does sound alot more live than the straight from desk option.

 

if you want something to sell that rocks, go with that one, if you want something to critique, go witht he desk.

[lowbasslowbass]

I always record rehearsals and gigs with my Sony mini disc. It is not affected by vibrations and the discs are much more reliable than a cdr.

[Hanshananigan]

 

Originally posted by JBJ minidisc into the desk is ok if the desk know what they're doing but some bands Ive heard doing that are terrible, just really bad mixes. i suppose thats more to do with their stage volume being too loud so he's rolled back the backline volume to balance out the FoH. it can sound really bad if theyve got too much reverb or whatever on any of the tracks too. we set up my digital 12 track at a gig a few years ago with a coupla mics placed round the stage and you get the audience, stage sound and general atmosphere picked up much better so that it does sound alot more live than the straight from desk option. if you want something to sell that rocks, go with that one, if you want something to critique, go witht he desk.

 

 

What mics would folks use if they put them about 20-40ft from the band (at the console) and plugged them into a digital recorder? Would SM57/58 suffice? Would you bother separating the mics by a few feet or crossing them pointing about 20degrees off center stage for stereo separation?

[Badside]

 

Originally posted by Hanshananigan What mics would folks use if they put them about 20-40ft from the band (at the console) and plugged them into a digital recorder? Would SM57/58 suffice?

 

 

That would work, but you'd be better off with small diaphram condenser mics. They usually are the flattest mics (the SM57/58 mics won't give you a proper rendition of the deep bass and high treble)

[JBJ]

as far as io remember we had a coupla sm57s on either side of the stage and a rode nt3 further back to get some ambience and crowd in it and it sounds ok.

 

the mix is good and you can make out monologues inbetween songs etc.... but i dunno if we were lucky or not

[MrKnobs]

I cringe whenever a band I'm working for wants a board tape - unless it's outdoors at a big show.

 

If you want something that sounds good, you have to record multitrack. Anything that's loud coming off the stage will be weak in the mix coming off the board. In other words, expect a board tape to be vocal heavy and guitar light, in general.

 

Terry D.

[Badside]

 

Originally posted by MrKnobs I cringe whenever a band I'm working for wants a board tape - unless it's outdoors at a big show. If you want something that sounds good, you have to record multitrack. Anything that's loud coming off the stage will be weak in the mix coming off the board. In other words, expect a board tape to be vocal heavy and guitar light, in general. Terry D.

 

 

But the point usually is simply to know how well we played and make adjustements. Not to sell to fans.

[Anderton]

Another vote for MD. Sure is more reliable than the DAT recorder I used to use...

[leepmeister]

Originally posted by MrKnobs Anything that's loud coming off the stage will be weak in the mix coming off the board.

 

This next semester both of my guitaristists will be using amp modelers direct into the PA (lead guitarist used a PodXT Live last semester with great results). Since I run sound for my band and will now have a pair of subs to help out the mains, plus 4 good monitors, we are pretty much going to run off PA volume...I'm still undecided on whether to use a bass cab, or just run a line from my Sansamp RBI.

 

So I think I will start recording a stereo feed from the board, since everything (including a moderately mic'ed drumkit) will be running through it, at fairly balanced levels (at smaller gigs I suppose the drums will be weaker int he mix). Time to buy a MD recorder

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Hardtailed But the point usually is simply to know how well we played and make adjustements. Not to sell to fans.

 

I know, I know.

 

But coming from my perspective as someone who used to make his living running live sound, sure as hell someone in the band will bitch about the mix after hearing the tape.

 

This is why it was so nice working for country stars; the road manager would have broken all my fingers if I'd ever tried to sneak a board tape.

 

Then again, if I had (not saying I didn't) I could make some serious $$ on Ebay right about now.

 

 

Terry D.

[Badside]

Originally posted by MrKnobs But coming from my perspective as someone who used to make his living running live sound, sure as hell someone in the band will bitch about the mix after hearing the tape.

 

Luckily, the guys in my band are clever enough to understand the technicalities

 

We have other ways of making sure the soundman does his job: wireless!

[worthyjoe]

So the concensus is that, if I wanted to record a gig for the purpose of taking clips and putting them on cd or website, we'd be best to put a mic(s) in the crowd rather than going straight into the board?

[Badside]

 

Originally posted by worthyjoe So the concensus is that, if I wanted to record a gig for the purpose of taking clips and putting them on cd or website, we'd be best to put a mic(s) in the crowd rather than going straight into the board?

 

 

The best is a multi-track taken from the direct outs of the board (or a splitter snake) so you can mix it afterwards.

 

The next best is room mics combined with a feed from the board so you can mix them. (it's important to time align them though, cause the room mic will be slightly delayed compared to the board, so everything will sound doubled. just load the tracks into a multi-track software and align the wave forms). You'll probably use mostly the room sound but bring in some board sound for more clarity.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by worthyjoe So the concensus is that, if I wanted to record a gig for the purpose of taking clips and putting them on cd or website, we'd be best to put a mic(s) in the crowd rather than going straight into the board?

 

Yeah I think a minidisc and a stereo mic out in the room would be the way to go. That way you get more of a feel for how you really sound, and you might be surprised at how good it sounds assuming the sound is decent to begin with.

 

If you want to let anybody other than the band hear the stuff, you're best off with going multitrack and using room mics in conjunction with individual tracks off the board. Unless you get really lucky and end up with a great stereo recording from the room mics - which has been known to happen.

[Lee Knight]

MD and 2 Radio Shack PZM's. The PZM's sound great for this app. You can clearly hear people talking {censored} about the band, etc.

 

The PZM's really have a colorless, nonhyped sound that won't exagerate the rooms' acoustic problems.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by worthyjoe So the concensus is that, if I wanted to record a gig for the purpose of taking clips and putting them on cd or website, we'd be best to put a mic(s) in the crowd rather than going straight into the board?

 

You won't get a quality recording that way, but if all you're looking for is a record of who hit a clunker where it will do fairly well for that.

 

There will be a tremendous amount of room sound recorded, which is usually a bad thing in the sort of rooms most people play in.

 

As others have correctly said, the options for a good recording go in this order:

 

(1) Use the direct outs to go to multitrack, then remix later. You can put up a room mike or two as one of the tracks if you want a more live feel. This is the best, tried and true way to do a live recording, hands down.

 

(2) Run a board mix to MD, DAT, or a laptop. You won't get a good mix in a small club if you just record the main outs going to the FOH speakers. Instead, you can use an AUX buss to do a second mix for the recording, if you have a good pair of isolating headphones. Many boards have a "second mix" capability.

 

(3) Put up room mikes, preferably PZMs or omni condensers. You need them close to the stage to pickup a minimum of the room sound and crowd conversations, etc., but not so close that you don't get a good mix or simply record what's coming out your main speakers. Good luck if you pick this option, you will have a very "garageband" sound and a potluck mix. But it will do nicely for figuring out who to fire next.

 

Terry D.