I just do not want to play music with them anymore

[Outkaster]

Do you guy's ever run into people that you get a long with but just do not want to make music with anymore? In our group we run into singers that are basically good people but they have a lot of {censored} with them. Or they do weird stuff on stage. If it is someone ythat is not a good front person you always feal like they are making you look bad? It is hard because you like them enough but just not what they do. Does this happen to any of you?

[Preacher Will]

My experience has been that, if you can't get along with someone in the band, you probably aren't going to get along after you leave. My wife is a case in point. She recently walked from her band after a three-year commitment. She left because the lead vocalist (who organized the band) kept treating her like his personal support group. in his mind, the band existed to make him look great. Before she joined, they were good friends. Afterwards, the friendship was over. She wasn't the only casualty either. The diva attitude of the vocalists chased off a guitarist, a bassist, my wife who played keys, and, rumor has it, the drummer is tired of their attitude and is getting ready to walk. You can be friends outside of a band but, once you go there, there's no going back.

[Outkaster]

Well it is more that I think our front line, which has two singers, is not alive enough. I mean they just do not entertain the crowd. Sometimes I think I am too hard on them but things either are or they are not. They just do not have that lead singer type of personality. It is embarrasing to see and play behind on stage. I just came home and watched a video of the show we played sat. night and it looked like {censored}. Then you have some of the crowd making comments. When that happens something has to be done. I like them well enough but maybe it is time to move on? I have put years into music and I cannot back singers up like this. It just does not seem like I am helping myself by staying on board. Resentment can set in if it continues.

[Lee Flier]

Well if you really feel like you can't respect the ability of the folks you're playing with and that you can find better, then you're right, you should move on.

 

I presume you've discussed the stage presence issues with the singers. Are they actually good singers and just need to work on their showmanship, or do they not sing that great either? If they sing well and you get along with them well, bear in mind that both are a rare commodity. It's going to be very difficult to find singers who are great singers, easy to get along with AND have great showmanship. Best of luck if you think you can find them, but it might be worth it to try to work with the ones you have and address the stage presence issues.

[flip333]

Hi Outkaster:

 

I have been in your situation. Here is what I have found:

 

When I observed other's sub-par performance and judged them harshly, I would quit or make them leave... I imagined I would go find something better. Instead I attracted more of the same problems.

 

The law of attration seems to be real. This is based on the idea that whatever you think and feel about you will attract more of.

 

So, consider changing your thoughts. Imagine those singers at their best. Imagine them improving. Do things to help them improve.... (if they don't improve, they will just go away because of your "nice" suggestions...)

 

You will also be thinking about your alternatives, no doubt. You can't help it. That is natural and good.

 

But now the difference is that you will easily move from one good situation to another good situation, and you can stop attracting lesser-talent people.

 

I did this, and am in a good situation now. If and when I desire a better situation, I can add talent as necessary, but I will be enjoying it.

 

Will you ever get to exactly where you want to be? Sure, but the

journey must be enjoyable.

 

Best Regards, flip

[Outkaster]

 

Originally posted by flip333 Hi Outkaster: I have been in your situation. Here is what I have found: When I observed other's sub-par performance and judged them harshly, I would quit or make them leave... I imagined I would go find something better. Instead I attracted more of the same problems. The law of attration seems to be real. This is based on the idea that whatever you think and feel about you will attract more of. So, consider changing your thoughts. Imagine those singers at their best. Imagine them improving. Do things to help them improve.... (if they don't improve, they will just go away because of your "nice" suggestions...) You will also be thinking about your alternatives, no doubt. You can't help it. That is natural and good. But now the difference is that you will easily move from one good situation to another good situation, and you can stop attracting lesser-talent people. I did this, and am in a good situation now. If and when I desire a better situation, I can add talent as necessary, but I will be enjoying it. Will you ever get to exactly where you want to be? Sure, but the journey must be enjoyable. Best Regards, flip

 

 

I guess they are young in there 20's but I still think that it either is or is not. I mean that people only have certain things or abilities and mind you I am saying it is not their fault. Sometimes if someone's voice was so good it did not matter if she was slightly overweight. I experienced that in a band I was in and even three years after the band broke up she (our female singer)still gets priases from people on the street she does not even know. She was that good. I am sorry but after watching that video I was embarressed. Maybe I am too harsh but once you have been one place with someone with great talent it is hard to take a step back. I try to imagine them at their best but because the crowds we play to are very harsh it is such a hard sell.

[Lee Flier]

Well, it's not necessarily an "is or isn't" thing. Some people can and do improve and some can't/don't.

 

Do these people even know that their lack of showmanship bothers you? They may be really unaware of how they come off on stage and it might just be time to have a get-together and show them the video. It could be the best thing that ever happened to them, or they could just get defensive or resigned and not do anything about it. But you won't know if you don't bring it up.

[fastplant]

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier Well, it's not necessarily an "is or isn't" thing. Some people can and do improve and some can't/don't. Do these people even know that their lack of showmanship bothers you? They may be really unaware of how they come off on stage and it might just be time to have a get-together and show them the video. It could be the best thing that ever happened to them, or they could just get defensive or resigned and not do anything about it. But you won't know if you don't bring it up.

 

 

Yeah, we used to video tape our shows and then watch the tape at practice to see what we were doing wrong. Helped out big time.

[Craig Vecchione]

+1 to Lee's comments.

 

Show the vids. Most people have no clue how they appear to others. If the person doesn't react positively (which is REALLY hard....how would you feel to discover conclusively that you look like a jerk in public???) give it a little time for him to reflect and absorb it. If there's still denial, you may have a problem that won't go away, and quitting/firing might be in order. Most showmanship problems can be fixed if the person understands the problem.

 

But it'll never be fixed if they don't know about it.

[Outkaster]

 

Originally posted by Craigv +1 to Lee's comments. Show the vids. Most people have no clue how they appear to others. If the person doesn't react positively (which is REALLY hard....how would you feel to discover conclusively that you look like a jerk in public???) give it a little time for him to reflect and absorb it. If there's still denial, you may have a problem that won't go away, and quitting/firing might be in order. Most showmanship problems can be fixed if the person understands the problem. But it'll never be fixed if they don't know about it.

 

 

Yeah we did that last night. I am not sure but they know they were wrong but will not admit it. The tape does not lie. I really believe people can only develop to a point. We will see what happens.

[elbow]

I'm sorta in the same boat.. but a little worse. I am in a band that has many family members.. brothers, brother-in-laws, etc.. So any attempt at suggesting an improvement to someone is considered a personal attack, people start packing up their gear, etc.

 

We've tried taping some practices and shows.. even after obvious train-wrecks, a few would say.. "man, that sounded good"

 

I've tried jamming with others on the side to help my sanity, but I get negative comments from them about how I should play with this band only.

 

I play guitar and do most of the lead vox and I feel a little guilty about making a break after 3 years of work, but I am already making plans to make a clean break with this disfunctional situation.. even if it takes a while to build some more material and get it tight.

 

Communication is the key to any good relationship... family, band, whatever.. when that can't happen you are in a spiraling tailspin my friend. In the next group I play with, we will have a serious meeting at the very beginning to go over ground rules and expectations.

[Outkaster]

 

Originally posted by elbow I'm sorta in the same boat.. but a little worse. I am in a band that has many family members.. brothers, brother-in-laws, etc.. So any attempt at suggesting an improvement to someone is considered a personal attack, people start packing up their gear, etc. We've tried taping some practices and shows.. even after obvious train-wrecks, a few would say.. "man, that sounded good" I've tried jamming with others on the side to help my sanity, but I get negative comments from them about how I should play with this band only. I play guitar and do most of the lead vox and I feel a little guilty about making a break after 3 years of work, but I am already making plans to make a clean break with this disfunctional situation.. even if it takes a while to build some more material and get it tight. Communication is the key to any good relationship... family, band, whatever.. when that can't happen you are in a spiraling tailspin my friend. In the next group I play with, we will have a serious meeting at the very beginning to go over ground rules and expectations.

 

 

We have done that. You can communicate as much as possible but I just do not think they get it.

[elbow]

Then you are probably hosed. My solution is to move on. Others may move with me.. but not sure. I will not campaign others to leave because I am. If they want to, that's fine... but like I said, we will have some very clear ground-rules in the next iteration. I never said I was some great player or singer, but I do want to perform and sound as good as I know we can.. and that takes some dedication to try and be better.

 

I also agree with an earlier post about development.. or lack there-of. Usually, everyone should be growing and learning but there are some folks that are at the end of their limits in ability.... natural ability, or ability made through sheer determination and practice....if that's the case here, it sounds like you are at a crossroads too.

 

If you are not having fun anymore, then what's the point? Unless you are one of the lucky few that do this for a living, it all boils down to having fun with it. I get a rush like nothing in this world when an audience is hooked.

[Sordid1]

I just want through almost the same thing and left. My last band had a singer that was less than stellar and he also had drinking issues. Nicest guy you will ever meet but I just couldn't deal with it anymore. I was way happier the day I left to just be shed of the whole thing and shortly after I found a much better (imho of course) to join. My musical life couldn't be any better now!

[daddymack]

I used to side with a power trio +lead singer, the other guitarist and I were drinking buddies, and the lead singer was a TV personality (on a nationally syndicated drama). I worked with them on and off for about a year, but finally just could not take the antics, lack of focus among the band, and the fact that I was carrying them by keeping it together and singing almost 1/3 of the night. The bassist was drugged out, the drummer was great when he finally showed up, the other guitarist couldn't even get going without 3 beers under his belt. And the singer was far more interested in chatting up the girls in the audience and signing autographs

 

They did two gigs after I stopped playing with them and they fell apart. My fault? Not really, if anything it was my fault it didn't happen sooner.

[flip333]

Hey Outkaster,

 

It would be very interesting to see your video clip. That would be cool if you could download it and insert a link to it.

 

I have seen two videos of myself playing. Man, talk about seeing what you really are! Its kinda like hearing your voice on a tape recorder for the very first time.

 

Yea, you have to be true to your goals. However, I have met musicians who have experienced the "ultimate" talent. It is very hard for them to work with mediocre talent. The funny thing is that they are now lost in limbo looking for the ultimate high... like a drug addict trying to recreate that first hit. They reject anything less than perfection and end up with nothing.

 

BUT..... In todays music scene, you cannot have poor vocals. Karaoke has allowed so many good singers to come from every walk of life, that audiences won't settle for anything but great vocals. You must strive for the best to succeed.

[Outkaster]

 

Originally posted by flip333 Hey Outkaster, It would be very interesting to see your video clip. That would be cool if you could download it and insert a link to it. I have seen two videos of myself playing. Man, talk about seeing what you really are! Its kinda like hearing your voice on a tape recorder for the very first time. Yea, you have to be true to your goals. However, I have met musicians who have experienced the "ultimate" talent. It is very hard for them to work with mediocre talent. The funny thing is that they are now lost in limbo looking for the ultimate high... like a drug addict trying to recreate that first hit. They reject anything less than perfection and end up with nothing. BUT..... In todays music scene, you cannot have poor vocals. Karaoke has allowed so many good singers to come from every walk of life, that audiences won't settle for anything but great vocals. You must strive for the best to succeed.

 

 

Wow that is a great post. I will see what I can do about the video for you. I know we will transfer it to DVD. The sound and mix was lack of a good sound check.

 

Anway I know I could be in that "limbo stage" if I leave and not end up with anything. The singer just has not improved in a year and a half she has been with us. She is unprofessional but not a bad person at all really. She drinks and smokes off stage and people notice that. Not to mention ruining future gigs and possibilites. People will not book a band that have members {censored}ing around at a show.

 

Your right, it is hard to work with mediocre talent after you have been to a different place. A few of us members were in the same band before from 1997-2002. Now I get compared to my own past where I played even more back then. Our following and people know us from that era. It is kind of sad. I feel I am worse off now than in those years.

 

Some bands just can come together and make it work with relativley few problems. The musicians are there, the willingness to succed, and the talent to boot. Our music director say's he likes to play to people's strengths but those people have to want to develop those strengths on their own as well.

[flip333]

A year and a half is a long time. Yes, I can see why you are looking at other possibilities.

 

In my band for instance, vocals are the weak link. We were well received at our opening farm party a couple of weeks ago, but I could tell we were not a smash hit, not to mention our recording showed several weak spots. I have called a singer/guitarist with a good reputation to jam with us. If he has the right chemistry then he's in.

 

You certainly do have a vision to carry you to your next step.

 

 

 

 

She is unprofessional but not a bad person at all really. She drinks and smokes off stage and people notice that. Not to mention ruining future gigs and possibilites. People will not book a band that have members {censored}ing around at a show.

 

 

Thanks for the reminder about professionalism.. I'm trying to improve in this area.

 

[Outkaster]

 

Originally posted by flip333 A year and a half is a long time. Yes, I can see why you are looking at other possibilities. In my band for instance, vocals are the weak link. We were well received at our opening farm party a couple of weeks ago, but I could tell we were not a smash hit, not to mention our recording showed several weak spots. I have called a singer/guitarist with a good reputation to jam with us. If he has the right chemistry then he's in. You certainly do have a vision to carry you to your next step. Thanks for the reminder about professionalism.. I'm trying to improve in this area.

 

 

Don't get me wrong nothing is wrong with having a few drinks after a show but do not be walking around all hammered. Her thing is that she has 3 kids so she relaxes away from them by partying, but it is on our dime. That is always the excuse.

[guitarmook]

As I understand it, you have:

 

1 - Told them you think their performance is not adequate

 

2 - Showed them video to make your point

 

and they have

 

1 - Not changed in a year-and-a-half.

 

 

If they are trying to change, but don't know how, then help them. If they are paying lip service to you, but not actually doing the WORK to make changes, or if they don't think anything needs to change, it's time to move on.

[ratthedd]

 

Originally posted by flip333 BUT..... In todays music scene, you cannot have poor vocals. Karaoke has allowed so many good singers to come from every walk of life, that audiences won't settle for anything but great vocals. You must strive for the best to succeed.

 

 

The karaoke scene where you are must be a completely different world from where I live. Around here the VAST majority of karaoke wannabes can't tell the difference between frequency and amplitude.

[Sordid1]

 

Originally posted by ratthedd The karaoke scene where you are must be a completely different world from where I live. Around here the VAST majority of karaoke wannabes can't tell the difference between frequency and amplitude.

 

 

1+ I don't really go out much anymore but a few years ago when I did the karaoke singers were usually terrible at best. Out of an entire night there would be maybe four people with decent voices and one or two tops that were actually goodgreat.

[progguitar]

You might need to think about some outside help. A third party to critique the showmanship. Don't be suprised if they have a few comments for you as well.

 

I don't know for sure where, but talking to someone in theatre productions might be somewhere to start.

[FingerBone Bill]

Discussion among band mates is really essential to a bands growth. The trouble is that criticism can be tricky especially for the more "fragile".

 

Bands are hard to keep together at the best of times, they are like marriages, even the best ones need working at.

 

If the singers just plain out cannot sing then perhaps you are better off out of it. HOWEVER if that is not the case:

 

My advice would be to view the video as a band then ask for a negative AND a positive comment from the rest of the band about each member in turn - always start with yourself, it stops the others thinking you have an agenda against them. Who knows, maybe the rest of the band have issues about you that could be improved.

 

Then discuss how to improve each weakness - not many of us are born perfect.

 

The main thing is to stress that you are looking to fine-tune an already good band into a better one.

 

As far as drinks are concerned - we always had a band rule. NO drinks until after the show. I won't play with drunks - it's too embarrasing.