Now I'm Losing Gigs To GUITAR HERO!

sventvkg · January 22, 2008

Yea well Market forces my ass...Anyone with taste so far up shit's creek to want this in their bar or want to sit and witness it will surely not see money from me or my friends anymore. I know there is nothing I personally can do but it's bad for our music community over here and that's why i'm posting about it and that's why we are trying to do something about it locally. Unlike many we are willing to try to DO something about this shit rather then just bitch about it...Markets do dictate though and if it turns out everyone everywhere ends up with GTR HERO instead of Live entertainment...Well then Good luck to them....and FUCK THEM!

BlueHeaven · January 22, 2008

It's open Mic night FFS. Get over yourselves.

JBJ · January 22, 2008

Yea well Market forces my ass...Anyone with taste so far up shit's creek to want this in their bar or want to sit and witness it will surely not see money from me or my friends anymore. I know there is nothing I personally can do but it's bad for our music community over here and that's why i'm posting about it and that's why we are trying to do something about it locally. Unlike many we are willing to try to DO something about this shit rather then just bitch about it...Markets do dictate though and if it turns out everyone everywhere ends up with GTR HERO instead of Live entertainment...Well then Good luck to them....and FUCK THEM!

you sound bitter

as much as it does suck, people talk with their wallets and not all people hold live music and musicianship in such high esteem.

i hate the shitty karaoke singers i have to listen to but most people find it funny / entertaining. in fact it does tend to be the uptight arseholes in the crowd who think their shit doesn't stink that has an issue with not so great singers taking the mic.

i might run this guitar hero idea by my boss tonight

BlueStrat · January 22, 2008

It's just a gimmick. I highly doubt that watching people play Guitar Hero will make a bar more money on a weekend night than a live band that has fans. It's more for the novelty that this is happening now. It'll wear off in time.

Yup. While karaoke is people actually singing, GH is watching people pretend to play the guitar while they're actually playing a video game controller that resembles a guitar. My kids play it, and frankly, I got bored after watching it for ten minutes. I can't imagine this lasting more than 15 minutes in culture time, and it will quickly go the way of the mechanical bull, dico lights and mud wrestling.

sventvkg · January 22, 2008

you sound bitter

as much as it does suck, people talk with their wallets and not all people hold live music and musicianship in such high esteem.

i hate the shitty karaoke singers i have to listen to but most people find it funny / entertaining. in fact it does tend to be the uptight arseholes in the crowd who think their shit doesn't stink that has an issue with not so great singers taking the mic.

i might run this guitar hero idea by my boss tonight

i'm a Musician. This is taking gigs away from me and my kind. OF course I'm fucking bitter mate. You can't compare what we do to GH or Karaoke. Yea it's a Bar. I see live entertainment getting more exclusive and leaving the lowest common denominator bar scene all together and I for one can't wait. That will weed out the shit musicians and leave the gigs to the people who deserve them. Very Darwinian and the audience will be full of people who actually want to see and hear and are into what a real live musician is doing.

Yes, i'm going to think this whole thing over and figure out a way to start putting on an promoting shows in concert like settings. We've done it a bit up here but it's had just ALRIGHT results. This Guitar Hero thing will bring many together on this deal and I can see parlaying it into a catalyst to making something happen for the betterment of us all.

indigoguy · January 22, 2008

Yea well Market forces my ass...Anyone with taste so far up shit's creek to want this in their bar or want to sit and witness it will surely not see money from me or my friends anymore. I know there is nothing I personally can do but it's bad for our music community over here and that's why i'm posting about it and that's why we are trying to do something about it locally. Unlike many we are willing to try to DO something about this shit rather then just bitch about it...Markets do dictate though and if it turns out everyone everywhere ends up with GTR HERO instead of Live entertainment...Well then Good luck to them....and FUCK THEM!

Fuck 'em indeed. I see where you are coming from but why bother with the protest? There must be somewhere else in town that you can move yr night to, if its succesful at the moment why not just use another room. It sounds like the bar owner is a bit of a dick, surely the best revenge is just taking your custom (and that of the rest of the open mic crowd) somewhere else, then after the 5 minutes that guitar hero has is over he will be stuck with an empty bar and you will still have a great night going at a rival bar.

Good Luck either way

BlueStrat · January 22, 2008

Fuck 'em indeed. I see where you are coming from but why bother with the protest? There must be somewhere else in town that you can move yr night to, if its succesful at the moment why not just use another room. It sounds like the bar owner is a bit of a dick, surely the best revenge is just taking your custom (and that of the rest of the open mic crowd) somewhere else, then after the 5 minutes that guitar hero has is over he will be stuck with an empty bar and you will still have a great night going at a rival bar.

Good Luck either way

+1000:idea:

tucktronix · January 22, 2008

Yup. While karaoke is people actually singing, GH is watching people

pretend

to play the guitar while they're actually playing a video game controller that resembles a guitar. My kids play it, and frankly, I got bored after watching it for ten minutes. I can't imagine this lasting more than 15 minutes in culture time, and it will quickly go the way of the mechanical bull, dico lights and mud wrestling.

I agree completely. After several minutes, it will be nothing different than being in an arcade watching someone play an arcade game... :bor:

sabriel9v · January 22, 2008

Karaoke was bad enough but now it's guitar hero. Better watch out, you could be next.

Ready my Angry Blog here:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&pop=1&ping=1&indicate=1

Tuesday, January 22, 2008

EDIT: Here is the blog.

GUITAR HERO IS NOT LIVE ENTERTAINMENT!

Current mood: angry

Category: Music

Yea, it's fun. Yea, it's cool and difficult to master (nowhere near on the level of a real musical instrument), and yea it's an escape from your miserable existance but it's not something I want to see LIVE ONSTAGE in a venue that should have a REAL musician Performing! Anyone who has even the slightest bit of culture and refinement would agree. GUITAR HERO belongs in the home, at house parties or in a Frathouse basement but it DOES NOT BELONG AT HUMPY'S GREAT ALASKAN ALEHOUSE, REPLACING OPEN MIC MONDAYS!!!!! What The fuck are they thinking??? Now, I've dealt with some clueless fucking bar managers/club owners in my years of gigging but this one ranks among the most fucked up things I have ever heard! First of all, Open Mic Monday is Anchorage's if not the state of Alaska's most established and well known open mic Night, bar none. It's THE venue for acoustic based singer songwriters to come out and perform, work out kinks and new material, or just meet up with friends and chill. For Humpy's to cancel a popular and generally well attended open mic is fucking INSANE and sounds like some bar manager's attempt at self edification..Like they are so fucking hip and with it man...Yea!!...Yea Right! This is a stupid fucking Idea for stupid uncultured jerkoffs who have no appreciation of real art. If that offended you then you are part of the problem.

What can we do on a local level? I'll tell you. VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET. DO NOT patronize these establishments that disrespect the arts and disrespect the customer with bullshit non-entertainment like Karaoke and Guitar Hero. Oh, there is a place for these things...At home, at a party, in some Frathouse basement BUT NOT IN A LIVE SETTING at the expense of a REAL MUSICIAN!..I mean WHAT THE FUCK??? Again, if you disagree PROMPTLY remove yourself from my friends list because I do not want to know you and most likely we aren't friends anyway!

I strongly encourage everyone to call Humpy's and voice your displeasure with their decision for replacing Open Mic with Guitar Hero. If we use our voice we MAY be able to enact some change here and make the management rethink their decision.

It's no wonder I'm heading to Europe where they still have an avid appreciation for culture and the arts. It's LONG-STANDING over there and artists and musicians are revered and compensated. It seems like we've lost something in our society. Maybe it's due to the dumbing down of our educational system, our propagandized control grid media that keeps spooning us disinformation or a combination of several things. I do know that many people want to be the star even though they lack the talent and skill to justify being on stage. I can outsing, outplay and out write most of the American Idol winners and contestants since it's inception and Local Karaoke gives me a fucking nightmare headache inside of 2 minutes. How deep in the minority can I be? Are they majority of people out there THAT fucking tone deaf that they think these drunk college chicks actually sound good screatching their way through a totally off key version of a Carrie Underwood song? And I can play a guitar pretty Damn well...A REAL guitar that is..So you mean to tell me, watching some drunk ass GI or Fratboy attempting to play "Sweet Child O Mine" on a guitar shaped GAME CONTROLLER,. flubbing notes at that, is a more soulful experience then hearing me play and sing? IF so, FUCK YOU! That's what I have to Say...That says it all. Remember....We Reap what we sow and we've got some major fucking problems. I say we who do give a shit, need to vote with our wallets.

THIS IS A CALL TO ARMS. IT'S IN YOUR HANDS PEOPLE.

I hate to break it to you, but dude you live in Alaska. Why not go to Seattle or Cali instead of Europe?

sventvkg · January 22, 2008

I hate to break it to you, but dude you live in Alaska. Why not go to Seattle or Cali instead of Europe?

I've been to those places and lived there. I hate to break it to you but I make more money up here gigging than any of those places. Until recently I was making a grand a week gigging. I've gigged all over the world for 20 years bro. The theme of my post/rant is more a function of the times we are living in rather then the geographic location. The better "scenes" in the US are the WORST places to make a living as a musician which is and has always been my goal. I will say that we are at a precarious time where things are changing and I'm trying to figure out how to adapt. I'm open to suggestions that involve musianship...NOT playing Video games on stage.

ihateyouguys · January 22, 2008

I also know everyone is pissed and there is talk of boycott and picketing in front of the venue during the Stupid ass Guitar Hero night.

Picketing something like this usually backfires. Just turns into free publicity for the place / person being picketed.

sabriel9v · January 22, 2008

I've been to those places and lived there. I hate to break it to you but I make more money up here gigging than any of those places. Until recently I was making a grand a week gigging. I've gigged all over the world for 20 years bro. The theme of my post/rant is more a function of the times we are living in rather then the geographic location. The better "scenes" in the US are the WORST places to make a living as a musician which is and has always been my goal. I will say that we are at a precarious time where things are changing and I'm trying to figure out how to adapt. I'm open to suggestions that involve musianship...NOT playing Video games on stage.

At least Guitar Hero is a small step up from DDR night (shivers)

btw I just left the Open Jam and I feel a little bit dirty right now

rhat · January 22, 2008

Have NEVER been to a bar with karaoke and witnessed 75% percent of the singers being good. I have a difficult time believing that but my definition of good is pro level..GOOD..Otherwise you don't belong on stage or deserve and audience in my view. YMMV.

I agree with the {censored}ty band analogy though.

I had never been to one that had that many good singers either....I guess thats why I had such a good time. rat

MrKnobs · January 22, 2008

Audience participation. I could see it as a happy hour offering, but to replace a live band with a video game? Then it's no longer a music venue, it's chuckee cheese for grownups.

Exactly right.

But you notice Chucky Cheese is still thriving.

As a general observation (not at all directed at you, Cherri), we musicians so often tend to forget that to the general public there's nothing at all sacred about music or art. It's simply entertainment for them, and there are many forms of entertainment. Their equation is, "Would it be cheaper/easier/more fun to drive downtown, hear a live band and be tired the next day at work, or just stay home and watch Netflix DVDs.

I think you know which choice wins that contest 99 times out of a hundred.

So I don't think some of the other comments in this thread about how dumb the venue owners are, or how far our society has degenerated are at all helpful to our situation. What would be more helpful is instead of wishing that people liked live music like they used to would be to figure out how to be entertaining. Failing that, we need to figure out how to make a profit from selling music some other way than by playing it live at a club.

Otherwise, if we just want to DO it regardless of whether anyone wants to HEAR it, then we really need to admit to ourselves that it's just as masturbatory as the folks wanking Guitar Hero on stage.

Terry D.

wades_keys · January 22, 2008

I just always make sure to stick with the gigs that are based on crowds liking the band (or not).

If the band is starting out - we'll find built-in crowds and try to get them going.

If the band is looking to bank the plush gigs, then be ready to bring your own crowd, that spends.....

I don't know, seems pretty straightforward to me

sventvkg · January 22, 2008

This is exactly the point I made in my other thread http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1866899 Where i'm asking what people want to see/hear in a live act. I'm genuinely interested in putting our heads together here to try to figure it out because Terry, i'm under NO illusions. I agree 100% with what you said. Music is not sacred to 99% of the general public out there. So how do we give them what they want or at least keep them rocking, dancing and interested the whole night?? I'm all fo some discourse on this subject and I think will benefit all of us!

I've noticed (in Austin) that the only people watching live original music are the other bands who are waiting to play, and they tend to look pretty bored too.

And it's not much better for cover bands.

Exactly right.

But you notice Chucky Cheese is still thriving.

As a general observation (not at all directed at you, Cherri), we musicians so often tend to forget that to the general public there's nothing at all sacred about music or art. It's simply entertainment for them, and there are many forms of entertainment. Their equation is, "Would it be cheaper/easier/more fun to drive downtown, hear a live band and be tired the next day at work, or just stay home and watch Netflix DVDs.

I think you know which choice wins that contest 99 times out of a hundred.

So I don't think some of the other comments in this thread about how dumb the venue owners are, or how far our society has degenerated are at all helpful to our situation. What would be more helpful is instead of wishing that people liked live music like they used to would be to figure out how to be entertaining. Failing that, we need to figure out how to make a profit from selling music some other way than by playing it live at a club.

Otherwise, if we just want to DO it regardless of whether anyone wants to HEAR it, then we really need to admit to ourselves that it's just as masturbatory as the folks wanking Guitar Hero on stage.

Terry D.

rhat · January 22, 2008

So how do we give them what they want or at least keep them rocking, dancing and interested the whole night?? I'm all fo some discourse on this subject and I think will benefit all of us!

this may seem strange ,,, but the goal isnt to keep them rocking and dancing. The goal is to keep them entertained and keep them in the bar spending money.

some of the most successful acts i know never have people dancing..... They pack the place and they are good enough that people just like to listen to them and party. Sometimes i think bands miss the whole idea of why they are there. They seem to think its all about them rawking ,, it aint its about the people who are spending the money. Some gigs are loaded with people who wanna dance... others are loaded with people who wanna hang out at the table ,, party with their friends and drink and eat and listen to great music... I would guess even with a young crowd ,,,, the focus in on getting laid more than it is dancing. dancing is just the avenue to getting laid. lol I have seen some rawkers clear out a whole bar with some guitar wanker drilling on their ears with their way too loud guitar masterbation..... it takes about three songs for them to empty the place.....most of the places i go dont have cover charges... and there is always another bar down the street with live entertainment. You have to know your crowd and entertain them...i think thats the bottom line.... rat

BlueStrat · January 22, 2008

I will say that we are at a precarious time where things are changing and I'm trying to figure out how to adapt.

I agree completely. The music bisiness I grew up with and have dedicated my life to for nearly 40 years bears little resemblance to what I've seen it become in the past 5 years. I don't know if I have it in me to keep trying to 'figure it out'. In fact, I'm pretty sure I don't. For that reason, I'm going to just keep booking myself until I can't anymore. When that day comes, I'll go do something else-go back to oil painting or fiction writing, where it doesn't depend on anyone else to make it happen.

6StringSling · January 22, 2008

Who cares if music is or isn't sacred to the general public besides musicians? No one. Art isn't sacred to the general public either other than to artists. I'm pretty positive that you wouldn't give two {censored}s about my ability as an artist if you were looking for someone to do an album cover for your band as opposed to someone who is an artist only because they have a computer and are only capable of digital work and not traditional drawing and painting. A computer just lets them fake it.

I spent 13 years as a graphic designer and now I can't even get an interview anymore and haven't been able to in 4 years. I (and others) are competing with some people who have zero training AT ALL in art per se let alone typography, but have pirated copies of InDesign, Quark, Photoshop etc that they've learned to use half-assed and can pass themselves off as graphic designers. I've had to compete with secretaries who use MS Word for layout and design. Employers, overall, are clueless about what makes good design and what doesn't. And the general public can't tell a difference in the finished product so what the {censored} does it matter? It doesn't, except to me, the artist.

You, as a musician, think you are selling talent. You are not - you are selling entertainment. To a crowd of people in a bar, what is more entertaining - watching a band perform covers (or originals) or participating in a band themselves?

As a musician you've probably heard the "It must be nice to have natural talent" line as many times as I have about my musicianship and my artistic ability. To me, there is no bigger slap in the face than telling me that my years of study and practice are nothing more than "natural talent". I worked good and goddamn {censored}ing hard to for those abilities and my gut reaction to having that passed off as "natural talent" is a swift elbow to the teeth. I have to be satisfied with knowing that people that make those statements are simply ignorant.

What most artists of any genre fail to grasp is how badly the average non-artist WANTS to be able to create what we create, play the way we're able to play. The thing is, they don't want to put in the sweat and toil required to achieve it. They want it to be quick and easy.

Well, fewer things are easier than fantasy and with games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band, they can participate in a mass fantasy and garner a small feeling of what it's like to play in a band and be a rock star. The average person is going to find that more entertaining than watching someone else perform real live music and sit there silently wishing it was them on stage.

What's {censored}ing pathetic to me is that for the cost of their game and expensive controllers, and the amount of time some of these people put into mastering a game that in no way, shape or form lends itself to playing the actual instruments they are pretending to play, they could buy the REAL thing and be learning it to play it.

But that just goes back to what I said previously - they want it to be quick and easy and they'll perceive learning to play the game at it's highest level as being faster and easier than learning to play the real thing.

It goes beyond that even. People WANT recognition for what they do. They want the accolades and adulation of their peers. Ever since video games have arrived on the scene, people who were good at playing games have been revered in one respect or another. That reverence is achievable with games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band because they aren't competing with people who have been playing for years or decades. It's not like picking up a guitar and being intimidated by the masters of the instrument - Guitar Hero and Rock band are new AND they have a maximum talent potential; at some point you can't get any better. And that makes being one of the best easier to achieve in a much shorter amount of time. And millions of people want that. They want it more than real musical instrument ability.

I'm not for Guitar Hero and Rock Band replacing the live music experience, but I'm the vast minority. If you put both in the same club at the same time, live music would lose almost 100% of the time in a head-to-head competition. I don't like it, but I'm not the one who chooses for everybody else what passes for entertainment either.

notamachine · January 22, 2008

My friends daughter plays guitar hero for several hours a day. I try to tell her that if she played an actual guitar that much she would be a real guitar hero. Oh, well. I truly despise that stupid game.

MrKnobs · January 23, 2008

Who cares if music is or isn't sacred to the general public besides musicians? No one. Art isn't sacred to the general public either other than to artists. I'm pretty positive that you wouldn't give two shits about my ability as an artist if you were looking for someone to do an album cover for your band as opposed to someone who is an artist only because they have a computer and are only capable of digital work and not traditional drawing and painting. A computer just lets them fake it.

I spent 13 years as a graphic designer and now I can't even get an interview anymore and haven't been able to in 4 years. I (and others) are competing with some people who have zero training AT ALL in art per se let alone typography, but have pirated copies of InDesign, Quark, Photoshop etc that they've learned to use half-assed and can pass themselves off as graphic designers. I've had to compete with secretaries who use MS Word for layout and design. Employers, overall, are clueless about what makes good design and what doesn't. And the general public can't tell a difference in the finished product so what the fuck does it matter? It doesn't, except to me, the artist.

You, as a musician, think you are selling talent. You are not - you are selling entertainment. To a crowd of people in a bar, what is more entertaining - watching a band perform covers (or originals) or participating in a band themselves?

As a musician you've probably heard the "It must be nice to have natural talent" line as many times as I have about my musicianship and my artistic ability. To me, there is no bigger slap in the face than telling me that my years of study and practice are nothing more than "natural talent". I worked good and goddamn fucking hard to for those abilities and my gut reaction to having that passed off as "natural talent" is a swift elbow to the teeth. I have to be satisfied with knowing that people that make those statements are simply ignorant.

What most artists of any genre fail to grasp is how badly the average non-artist WANTS to be able to create what we create, play the way we're able to play. The thing is, they don't want to put in the sweat and toil required to achieve it. They want it to be quick and easy.

Well, fewer things are easier than fantasy and with games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band, they can participate in a mass fantasy and garner a small feeling of what it's like to play in a band and be a rock star. The average person is going to find that more entertaining than watching someone else perform real live music and sit there silently wishing it was them on stage.

What's fucking pathetic to me is that for the cost of their game and expensive controllers, and the amount of time some of these people put into mastering a game that in no way, shape or form lends itself to playing the actual instruments they are pretending to play, they could buy the REAL thing and be learning it to play it.

But that just goes back to what I said previously - they want it to be quick and easy and they'll perceive learning to play the game at it's highest level as being faster and easier than learning to play the real thing.

It goes beyond that even. People WANT recognition for what they do. They want the accolades and adulation of their peers. Ever since video games have arrived on the scene, people who were good at playing games have been revered in one respect or another. That reverence is achievable with games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band because they aren't competing with people who have been playing for years or decades. It's not like picking up a guitar and being intimidated by the masters of the instrument - Guitar Hero and Rock band are new AND they have a maximum talent potential; at some point you can't get any better. And that makes being one of the best easier to achieve in a much shorter amount of time. And millions of people want that. They want it more than real musical instrument ability.

I'm not for Guitar Hero and Rock Band replacing the live music experience, but I'm the vast minority. If you put both in the same club at the same time, live music would lose almost 100% of the time in a head-to-head competition. I don't like it, but I'm not the one who chooses for everybody else what passes for entertainment either.

This post is spot on.

One of the things that's changing is that people increasingly are rejecting passive entertainment for interactive participation. Internet over TV, for example. Watch a good band passively, or sing (poorly) over recorded backup tracks? Read the political news in depth or post about it on a political forum? Watch a DVD or make a YouTube video of yourself playing air guitar to a Guns 'n Roses song?

All that's needed to complete the reward (as the above poster correctly points out) is positive feedback, which comes, in general, from the other people participating in the same amateur activity. Maybe this is the future of every artistic endeavor, that the audience be made up of fellow amateurs.

And technology is helping people achieve the fantasy of being proficient. Automatic digital cameras that need no input to take photos that are perfect in every technical way, YouTube and various "idiot proof" camcorders and video editing software can provide everything but the creativity, even automatically uploading your finished masterpiece to YouTube.

Guitar Hero is just another manifestation of that larger trend sweeping the planet.

And only the technology part is new.

Remember when it cost a fortune to make a record? Now anyone can do that for a very small sum of money.

Remember in the 80's when rock had been taken over by the Steve Perry's (singing notes above high C effortlessly), the Eddie Van Halens (playing impossibly proficient guitar), the spandex and the perfectly sprayed big hair? How could the kids coming up compete with that? Would they try to sing STILL higher, play STILL faster, look EVEN better, party harder?

Nope. Punk and grunge and new wave and alternative and all the other genres were born as a rejection to those things, an assertion that being "good" wasn't about proficiency singing or playing.

Everything goes in cycles. The difference is now technology can do much of the work for you. Secretaries are making mediocre drawings in PowerPoint that the graphics dept. used to do. Guitar processors can be set to play perfect arpeggios from a single note or transform any note from the fretboard to a "correct" note in the key of the song. "EZDrummer" and others create your drum tracks for you automatically using superb sounding samples.

Our challenge as entertainers is to embrace these new trends and incorporate them into our performances, as they simply cannot be resisted.

Terry D.

sventvkg · January 23, 2008

I agree completely. The music bisiness I grew up with and have dedicated my life to for nearly 40 years bears little resemblance to what I've seen it become in the past 5 years. I don't know if I have it in me to keep trying to 'figure it out'. In fact, I'm pretty sure I don't. For that reason, I'm going to just keep booking myself until I can't anymore. When that day comes, I'll go do something else-go back to oil painting or fiction writing, where it doesn't depend on anyone else to make it happen.

I wish I was at your point and I don't know If I ever will be. I breath and inhale only music. Always have and can't do anything about it.

That said, We have to start looking beyond Bars because it's obvious they are in the Alcohol Biz and NOT the music biz. How do we get the music out there to the small niche crowd who wants to see/hear it? House concerts, listening venues?

sventvkg · January 23, 2008

Amen Brother!!!