Amp Placement

[ski219]

One of the replies to the OFDB thread got me thinking about stage set up and where people place their amps.

 

I try to get all the amps against the back wall. I want the drummer to be able to hear and I want to get as far away as possible myself so that I can hear not only my guitar, but what the overall mix is. I find if I'm too close the sound seems to go right through me and I pla way too loud. That said, I see plenty of guys who set up their amps about a foot behind where they stand and in front of the drummer. I've seen bands that sound good this way and bands that are a complete mix disaster with this setup. I'm talking smaller clubs with vocals only in the PA not miced up amps.

 

What are your thoughts on the best way to go?

[Deeprig9]

I recommend keeping the guitar amps separated as far as possible. I used to think the opposite way, because people on one side can't hear the other guitar. But recently, we discovered it's so much better that way (not perfect). When our guitar amps were together, it just sounded horrible. In smaller clubs like you mentioned, alot of times is just a function of where the amps will fit and where there's power, and where the members will fit, a challenge for a 5 piece with a keyboard.

[tlbonehead]

One of the replies to the OFDB thread got me thinking about stage set up and where people place their amps. I try to get all the amps against the back wall. I want the drummer to be able to hear and I want to get as far away as possible myself so that I can hear not only my guitar, but what the overall mix is. I find if I'm too close the sound seems to go right through me and I pla way too loud. That said, I see plenty of guys who set up their amps about a foot behind where they stand and in front of the drummer. I've seen bands that sound good this way and bands that are a complete mix disaster with this setup. I'm talking smaller clubs with vocals only in the PA not miced up amps. What are your thoughts on the best way to go?

I don't get why you'd play louder if you amp was closer, unless you have it sitting on the stage floor blasting at your calves. Hopefully that isn't the case. I have mine behind a little and outside of me a bit in a semi-sidefill arrangement. The one on my side is facing the bass player's mic stand on the opposite side of the stage and my second amp is a mirror image on the other side of the stage and pretty much aimed at my mic stand. And my bass play sidefills his as well. This way we can all catch a piece of each other. I like closed-back cabs because you can aim them w/o throwing out a bunch of extra volume all over the place. My current drummer uses headphones usually and creates his own monitor mix, so it isn't mandatory that I am aimed at him. But with other drummers and instances where is just uses a regular monitor, he is able to hear me fine. And I always set my 4x12"s on top of something so they can actually be accurately heard onstage.

[tlbonehead]

 

I recommend keeping the guitar amps separated as far as possible. I used to think the opposite way, because people on one side can't hear the other guitar. But recently, we discovered it's so much better that way (not perfect). When our guitar amps were together, it just sounded horrible. In smaller clubs like you mentioned, alot of times is just a function of where the amps will fit and where there's power, and where the members will fit, a challenge for a 5 piece with a keyboard.

 

Yes, certainly getting a little separation is key to staying out of volume wars. You get one big wall of muck onstage and each player has trouble picking out his/her thing.

[ski219]

 

I don't get why you'd play louder if you amp was closer, unless you have it sitting on the stage floor blasting at your calves. Hopefully that isn't the case. I have mine behind a little and outside of me a bit in a semi-sidefill arrangement. The one on my side is facing the bass player's mic stand on the opposite side of the stage and my second amp is a mirror image on the other side of the stage and pretty much aimed at my mic stand. And my bass play sidefills his as well. This way we can all catch a piece of each other. I like closed-back cabs because you can aim them w/o throwing out a bunch of extra volume all over the place. My current drummer uses headphones usually and creates his own monitor mix, so it isn't mandatory that I am aimed at him. But with other drummers and instances where is just uses a regular monitor, he is able to hear me fine. And I always set my 4x12"s on top of something so they can actually be accurately heard onstage.

 

 

I never put it on the floor, either a chair or a milk crate. I have just found through experience that if I get 5 or 6 feet away I can hear myself better/louder than when I am closer - unless my ears are right in my amp. I'm playing throug a small combo so no stacks. Sounds like you guys are a power trio which is a different ballgame IMO. Also, if your drummer is listening to the mix through headphones then you must be miced up. Read the OP. I said NO MICS.

[tlbonehead]

 

I never put it on the floor, either a chair or a milk crate. I have just found through experience that if I get 5 or 6 feet away I can hear myself better/louder than when I am closer - unless my ears are right in my amp. I'm playing throug a small combo so no stacks. Sounds like you guys are a power trio which is a different ballgame IMO. Also, if your drummer is listening to the mix through headphones then you must be miced up. Read the OP. I said NO MICS.

 

Not really exactly a power trio. Meaning not really honed in on the blues/classic rock thing, although we do some. Didn't see the no miking thing. Yes, we mic everything. I haven't done a gig w/o miking since the mid 80's. I can't imagine having to do that again. It would take the fun out of it, that's for sure.

[WynnD]

One band I was in many years ago had both guitars on the same side of the drums. The result was the band was screaming by the end of a four hour night. When I separated them, placing the rhythm guitar near me, helped when he switched to bass and I switched to keys, the problem went totally away. By the third song our volume was set for the night. We stacked the rhythm's amp on top of my bass amp. (Same manufacturer, looked great and saved some stage space for my leslie.) Getting the guitar amp off the floor helps prevent playing too loud. (Probably helps with feedback induced sustain.) Note: that I have a very easy time hearing bass. I could probably have my amp across the stage and still not be too loud. (Also don't believe that bass competes with anything else onstage. Maybe modern kick drums, but not a problem with Bing's playing back then.)

[ski219]

I haven't been miced in a long time. We play mostly 2 guitar classic rock and we concentrate pretty hard on dynamics, hearing each other, and playing together as a band. I think it's bcause of this that we can get a pretty good mix without sending everything through the PA. We are playing mostly in smaller venues like 50 - 100 people. Although, sometimes I think we should be playing louder than we are.

[tlbonehead]

I haven't been miced in a long time. We play mostly 2 guitar classic rock and we concentrate pretty hard on dynamics, hearing each other, and playing together as a band. I think it's bcause of this that we can get a pretty good mix without sending everything through the PA. We are playing mostly in smaller venues like 50 - 100 people. Although, sometimes I think we should be playing louder than we are.

I prefer to be mixed and balanced throughout the room. And I'd rather not have the amount of guitar volume needed to carry the room blasting past me.

[alcohol]

In general I think the further back the amp is the better for all, especially if your not mixing through the PA.

 

I've installed Weber Beam Blockers in a couple of my guitar amps and they help at spreading the sound on the stage also. They also do get rid of the icepick projection that guitar amps have out in the audience.

[Roy Brooks]

I almost always put my combo amplifier on a chair or stand a few feet behind me.

[WynnD]

For the louder must be better crowd. I've never met anyone who left a show because the band wasn't loud enough. I've left because they were too loud or just plane bad musicians. (Once, ice pick level painfully loud.) Quieter bands get people to crowd around the band without even trying.

[tlbonehead]

 

For the louder must be better crowd. I've never met anyone who left a show because the band wasn't loud enough. I've left because they were too loud or just plane bad musicians. (Once, ice pick level painfully loud.) Quieter bands get people to crowd around the band without even trying.

 

I've seen it happen many times. I've seen lightweight playing bands and the young crowd will say, 'lets get out of here, this is lame". Many of our venues wouldn't hire bands if they didn't present a small concert-like atmosphere to a younger crowd demanding it. But I guess if you are playing background music to a cocktail atmosphere, you could be right.

[modulusman]

Tlbonehead, If you are micing your amp why would you need 2 amps? Why not let the PA do its job.

[WynnD]

This is lame? I wouldn't assume that the band was too quiet from that. I would assume that the band didn't probably didn't sound good. For that reason alone they shouldn't be brought back.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that they left cause the band wasn't loud enough but sounded great. I'll walk out on a bad sounding group at any level. I've walked out fairly frequently on groups that sounded great, but were just too F**king loud! I know that I'm not alone on that. I never walk out on a good sounding group that will leave my ears intact at the end of the night. It's very possible and likely for a great sounding loud group to chase your clients away. (Been there and embarrassingly enough have done that.)

 

How to tell when the band is toooo loud. (IMO) No one chooses to sit at a table near the band. (Except band members close friends and significant others.) People dance as far from the band as they can. This stuff is easy to see and you should be looking for it.

[WynnD]

I'm all for music that is intense! Don't confuse intensity with volume. They're not the same.

[BigMac5]

I'm all for music that is intense! Don't confuse intensity with volume. They're not the same.

[tlbonehead]

 

Tlbonehead, If you are micing your amp why would you need 2 amps? Why not let the PA do its job.

 

The PA is doing its job. You can't have stereo or layering of two different tones w/o two different amps. When I use my Hybrids I have three total signals going to the board with the acoustic and the two electric amps. It sounds nice!

[tlbonehead]

 

I'm all for music that is intense! Don't confuse intensity with volume. They're not the same.

 

You're the only one that reads that into what we are saying. I'm simply talking about giving the crowd what they want. If you have a dispute it should be questioning what the crowd wants and demands, not the fact that some of us actually are doing what our people desire.

[tlbonehead]

This is lame? I wouldn't assume that the band was too quiet from that. I would assume that the band didn't probably didn't sound good. For that reason alone they shouldn't be brought back. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that they left cause the band wasn't loud enough but sounded great. I'll walk out on a bad sounding group at any level. I've walked out fairly frequently on groups that sounded great, but were just too F**king loud! I know that I'm not alone on that. I never walk out on a good sounding group that will leave my ears intact at the end of the night. It's very possible and likely for a great sounding loud group to chase your clients away. (Been there and embarrassingly enough have done that.) How to tell when the band is toooo loud. (IMO) No one chooses to sit at a table near the band. (Except band members close friends and significant others.) People dance as far from the band as they can. This stuff is easy to see and you should be looking for it.

I told you already but with your anti-anything you will always refuse to believe it. What you do and what 98% of the crowd we play for want are two opposite things.Personally, I'd rather please our fans than try to please you and not have any fans.

[BlueStrat]

I probably do everything wrong I guess. I put my amp on the floor for better bottom end resonance off the stage floor. I put it behind me about two feet away so I can reach it to make adjustments if need be. I turn it 45 degrees to the front of the stage so it doesn't hit the crowd in the face.

 

I also mic it, set it at a comfortably low-medium volume and let the PA do the work. If no PA is used for instruments, I turn it up some. Usually, the amp is in front of the drummer off to one side so he gets the speaker sound out of the back.

 

I like to set it and forget it. Over the course of the evening, ear compression sets in, and it sounds like you're getting quieter, but you aren't. Amps don't turn themselves down. If someone tells me in the second or third set that they can't hear my amp or vocals when the first set was fine, I just make everyone else come back down again in volume.

[tlbonehead]

How to tell when the band is toooo loud. (IMO) No one chooses to sit at a table near the band. (Except band members close friends and significant others.) People dance as far from the band as they can. This stuff is easy to see and you should be looking for it.

We use about 6-10K watts for our main sound depending on the club size and how low we load the amps. Most of the places we play have no tables up front. Only standing/dancing room. People certainly "choose" to stand/dance as close to the band as possible when we play. We don't play that loud, but considerably louder than your version of acceptable. And we also have a PA that will play flat down to 40-45 hz, which is another of your pet peeves. You've stated that you like a PA that rolls off naturally at about 90-100hz. You just have this goofy idea that bands should be playing Pearl Jam, STP, AIC, Metallica, etc covers with a PA sound that works best for the Beach Boys.

[tlbonehead]

I probably do everything wrong I guess. I put my amp on the floor for better bottom end resonance off the stage floor. I put it behind me about two feet away so I can reach it to make adjustments if need be. I turn it 45 degrees to the front of the stage so it doesn't hit the crowd in the face. I also mic it, set it at a comfortably low-medium volume and let the PA do the work. If no PA is used for instruments, I turn it up some. Usually, the amp is in front of the drummer off to one side so he gets the speaker sound out of the back. I like to set it and forget it. Over the course of the evening, ear compression sets in, and it sounds like you're getting quieter, but you aren't. Amps don't turn themselves down. If someone tells me in the second or third set that they can't hear my amp or vocals when the first set was fine, I just make everyone else come back down again in volume.

I remember those days! Fortunately, our stage volume is nomally sane enough that ear compression no longer happens, or is very minimal.

[tlbonehead]

There should be a "Sound Forum for 60'-60s music" here. Of course, there would only be one poster!

[BlueStrat]

I remember those days! Fortunately, our stage volume is nomally sane enough that ear compression no longer happens, or is very minimal.

 

I get it after four hours even at an acoustic gig.

 

Getting old sucks. :cry: