Matching tone with the other guitarist...

[fanuvbrak]

I play through a Classic 50 410. I have, basically, three sounds: Clean, Crunch (with a 59 Bassman pedal), and overdrive (through the amp). I have reverb that I can attach to any of those. I don't have a high gain sound, but we don't really play anything that needs it. The Peavey's overdrive usually suffices.

The other guitarist has a Vox Tonelab that he runs through a SS Crate. Of all the modeling/Multi-FX pedals, I have always thought the tonelab was one of the better ones.

Here's the problem: This guy just piles on the effects. Plus, he has a distinct sound for each song we do. I have suggested that he find a nice clean, crunch, overdrive, and high gain and then add effects as needed.

The problem with the way he's currently doing it is that on some songs, he completely disappears and all you hear is me and a faint static. On other songs, I get swallowed by this massive tone coming from his amp. The result is that I'm constantly adjusting my amp so that we can both be heard.

Anyone have a Tonelab with three or four great all purpose settings for a rock cover band? I'd love to be able to say, "Try the Fender Clean, the Marshall Crunch, and the Mesa Overdrive and let's work from there."

[GCDEF]

I use the Tonelab as basically just a four channel amp.

I use the Twin for clean, Plexi for crunch, Dumble for classic rock. I've got a more modern distortion patch too, but I don't remember which model I based it on.

With any of those modelers, you really need to take time to properly set the levels on the patches. It does have a volume pedal though, so he should be able to adjust on the fly.

[stratotastic]

I'm not sure what the pecking order is in your band, but personally I'd have very little tolerance for this and would probably cut the guy loose sooner than later. Knowing how to get a good sound and blend into the band idea is just as important as playing the notes. If the guy cannot identify what sounds good in the mix and what does not, there's really no point in him being there at all. You can hold his hand, delicately find pc ways of telling him his tone sucks, and gently guide him for a lifetime on how to be a good player, or you can just post a craigslist ad and have a better guitarist in there in 2 weeks.

[caveman]

So have you discussed this with him? It must sound great to him standing in front of his amp. Put a wireless on him and have him get out front where he can hear what all that syrup does to his place in the mix.

[gtrjones]

The levels on his different 'patches' are not 'level'... some are too quiet, some are too loud. So he needs to fix that, and needs to do it while the band is playing, to get a true measure of how to 'fit' his tones with the whole thing going.

I had to tweak my modeler that way, too... the different settings sounded fine in my studio, but some cut through better than others in the band mix, so I had to adjust some levels on the fly, with everything else in the mix.

[Ender_rpm]

MFX are notoriously hard to dial in at home for good band sounds. I'd recommend recording a rehearsal or show, and then talking to him about it. Ask him if he needs help getting his levels right, etc. I'm not a "pre-set per song" guy myself, but I do prefer a "one stomp" solution to go from Edge-style delays to OD lead sounds, rather than stomping 2-3 FX off and on.

[fanuvbrak]

So have you discussed this with him? It must sound great to him standing in front of his amp. Put a wireless on him and have him get out front where he can hear what all that syrup does to his place in the mix.

 

 

We've talked about it and he's receptive, but this tonelab is new to him and like I said, I don't know anything about it. I wish he'd just bought a tube amp.

[GCDEF]

We've talked about it and he's receptive, but this tonelab is new to him and like I said, I don't know anything about it. I wish he'd just bought a tube amp.

 

 

There's no reason the Tonelab can't sound as good as or better than most tube amps.

 

It's never going to sound better than what it's plugged into. You'll never hear it at its best plugged into a SS Crate. I run into a high end keyboard amp. That may not be an option for him, but some kind of full range keyboard amp or powered PA speaker will sound much better than the Crate.

 

It's really easy to dial it in so that it sounds terrible. Many amp/speaker combinations don't work well together, and when you do find a combination that works, you still need to adjust the various tone and gain controls properly.

 

It's really easy to get carried away with over use of effects. On their own, they may sound good, but in context with a band and another guitar, they can really mess things up.

 

I'd recommend doing what I did. Start with dialing in the basic sounds and going from there.

[BlueStrat]

I used a multi effects processor in the 90s (quadraverb GT) plugged into a Hafler power amp and a 2-12 stereo cabinet. I had 10 modified presets and another 25 or so patches I used. After three years of constant fiddling with the sounds with every change of venue, and the constant tweaking and adjusting, I canned it and went back to a Fender tube amp with a channel selector footswitch ,a volume pedal, delay pedal and bit of compression I use for slide. I'm so much happier now that I can just relax and play the songs and not the gear.

[taco-man]

I chuckle at the haste that people show in suggesting that you fire the guy.

Anyway, I previously tried amp modeling with a BOSS GT-8. I found that the idea of just settling on three basic sounds is the way to go.

Two ways to sell him on the idea:
1. Play up the idea that it is so cool when guitarists have their "signature sound."
2. Let him know that this is a way for him to cut through the mix and be heard properly, and have everyone in the band gel.

I'd ask him to show you some of the preset patches in the unit. Get excited about the ones that sound good, and encourage their use in other songs.

[Kramerguy]

 

The levels on his different 'patches' are not 'level'... some are too quiet, some are too loud. So he needs to fix that, and needs to do it while the band is playing, to get a true measure of how to 'fit' his tones with the whole thing going. I had to tweak my modeler that way, too... the different settings sounded fine in my studio, but some cut through better than others in the band mix, so I had to adjust some levels on the fly, with everything else in the mix.

 

 

^^ This is the correct answer.

 

There's nothing wrong with trying to match the tone of the songs you are doing. I've got over 90 self-tweaked patches just for covers in my gnx. It takes some time to work out the various volume levels for the different patches, you just need to work with the guy, and mostly, get him to agree to try and adjust volumes and save the patches during rehearsals.

 

Now.. being that you (the OP) use the same tones for most songs, and he doesn't... It doesn't matter, in fact it's a frigging plus. My other guitarist uses stompboxes and for OD, uses a metalzone, or the marshall amp OD, so he's not swapping 20 tones like I do, and guess what? You've got stability on one side and flexibility on the other.

 

Stick with all static tones on both guitars, and you end up sounding like a party/jam band... If that's what you want.. I guess it's okay, but nothing will separate you from any other party/jam band, whereas, add the flexibility, and now you are a strong cover band with dynamic sound. It adds to the overall quality of the band, believe me.

[cooterbrown]

Here's what needs to be done:

 

1. Confiscate his gear and sell it on eBay.

 

2. Make him buy a real amp.

Nothing over 50w...something that's EL34 or EL84-powered, like yours.

 

Problem solved.

[BlueHeaven]

When I use my Line 6 Flextone III I always stick with about 3-4 presets. A nice clean, a crunchy clean, a high gain, and if needed, a super heavey high gain. You can always plop the effects on them if needed.

Trying to program a different tone for every song when playing live just screws up the mix, as you have already noted. The crowd won't ever notice or care that your current tone doesn't match exactly the song your covering, so there's no realy point to even try.

[newmaxnew]

It isn't always just the volume that needs to be tweaked for each patch, but the EQ. Some tones are just going to get buried in the mix. This will happen most often when you try and set up your tones from these boxes while playing alone. It just doesn't work good because what sounds good by itself will often not work in a band mix. That is why it is easier to go with 4 or 5 basic tones with those things.

Max

[dk123123dk]

I suggest you two get together at the practice space and tweak all the settings together. I would also suggest downloading the manual before the practice, and make sure you know how to adjust all the proper settings.

 

I think MFX have a place, but they need to be tweaked extensively to get a consistent sound. You might just want to convince him to ditch the MFX and get a simple tube amp and a few choice effects pedals.

 

dk

[tlbonehead]

I play through a Classic 50 410. I have, basically, three sounds: Clean, Crunch (with a 59 Bassman pedal), and overdrive (through the amp). I have reverb that I can attach to any of those. I don't have a high gain sound, but we don't really play anything that needs it. The Peavey's overdrive usually suffices. The other guitarist has a Vox Tonelab that he runs through a SS Crate. Of all the modeling/Multi-FX pedals, I have always thought the tonelab was one of the better ones. Here's the problem: This guy just piles on the effects. Plus, he has a distinct sound for each song we do. I have suggested that he find a nice clean, crunch, overdrive, and high gain and then add effects as needed. The problem with the way he's currently doing it is that on some songs, he completely disappears and all you hear is me and a faint static. On other songs, I get swallowed by this massive tone coming from his amp. The result is that I'm constantly adjusting my amp so that we can both be heard. Anyone have a Tonelab with three or four great all purpose settings for a rock cover band? I'd love to be able to say, "Try the Fender Clean, the Marshall Crunch, and the Mesa Overdrive and let's work from there."

The problem is that he doesn't have his patches dialed in well. It isn't the equipment or the fact that he has too many patches.

[tlbonehead]

It isn't always just the volume that needs to be tweaked for each patch, but the EQ. Some tones are just going to get buried in the mix. This will happen most often when you try and set up your tones from these boxes while playing alone. It just doesn't work good because what sounds good by itself will often not work in a band mix. That is why it is easier to go with 4 or 5 basic tones with those things. Max

This more than anything. But it should only be bad one times. You should be able to hear the problem the first time you use it in a full band mix and adjust it before you use it the next.

[Boydog]

This more than anything. But it should only be bad one times. You should be able to hear the problem the first time you use it in a full band mix and adjust it before you use it the next.

 

 

+1 to that

IMO it enhances the sound of the band to hear two individual guitars, not so much difference that one takes from the other mind you, but enough that it's easy to tell one from the other. It adds a fullness to the overall mix.

As for the MFX, like someone previously stated, give the man a wireless and have him stand out front, but then if he can't hear it on stage he may not hear it out there either even if he can hear the other guitar he may well simply not care. There are those who enjoy being the "front man" and enjoy wallowing in the attention they're getting.

[stevesherbert]

simplify. a good tube amp is better than all the multi FX super pod crap in the world. also a guitarist doesn't really need more than 2 or 3 tones. better to have 1 sound that sits well in the mix than 25 that sound like crap. no one notices whether you nailed the freebird tone or not. everyone notices if they can't hear you.

[tlbonehead]

simplify. a good tube amp is better than all the multi FX super pod crap in the world. also a guitarist doesn't really need more than 2 or 3 tones. better to have 1 sound that sits well in the mix than 25 that sound like crap. no one notices whether you nailed the freebird tone or not. everyone notices if they can't hear you.

that's a silly generalization.

[stevesherbert]

really? how many tube amp manufacturers are trying to 'recreate that POD sound?'

[StratGuy22]

I played in a band with a guy like that. I have basically two sounds. Clean and dirty. I have the odd delay setting for a specific song here or there, but mainly it's the two.

Meanwhile, he was doing a god damn tapdance on his pedal board between every single song. I mean if you are going to have different sounds for each song, why not put them all in the proper order.

I hated it.

[tlbonehead]

really? how many tube amp manufacturers are trying to 'recreate that POD sound?'

This isn't a POD we are talking about.

[tlbonehead]

I played in a band with a guy like that. I have basically two sounds. Clean and dirty. I have the odd delay setting for a specific song here or there, but mainly it's the two. Meanwhile, he was doing a god damn tapdance on his pedal board between every single song. I mean if you are going to have different sounds for each song, why not put them all in the proper order. I hated it.

so if you change your setlist up on the fly, he should have stopped and rearranged his pedals?

[stevesherbert]

fine then, i should have said:

"how many tube amp manufacturers are trying to recreate that sound?"

 

at the very least, a dude with a ton of pedals should shell out the extra $150 to get a proper line selector. this eliminates tap dancing AND tone suckage.