Matching tone with the other guitarist...

[6StringSling]

The biggest problem I see with modelers is with the user, not the gear. It's pretty simple - you have to spend the time to get know how to use a modeler and that doesn't mean finding out how to turn it on and find which pedal/channel for which preset. It means spending time to create workable tones. It's not unusual for me to spend 2-3 hours creating a single tone. If you're not the kind of person who likes/wants to spend the time to dial a workable tone, then a modeler isn't going to do much for you but thin your hair.

 

You also need to think outside the box. Just because you're favorite guitarist uses a Mesa Boogie triple rectifier with a 4x12 doesn't mean you have to use those models. Use what sounds good.

[Ender_rpm]

fine then, i should have said: "how many tube amp manufacturers are trying to recreate that sound?" at the very least, a dude with a ton of pedals should shell out the extra $150 to get a proper line selector. this eliminates tap dancing AND tone suckage.

 

 

Please recreate the sounds of The Edge, The Cure, hell CCR (trem) without FX. A properly programmed MFX will allow you to do them all with one stomp. It's just a pain to program them in, but once you do, you do tend to find 3-4 sounds you can use for a base, then add FX to taste. I run a GT10 in my amps FX loop for FX and looping, good OD pedals in front of the amp. I do more tapdancing, but I prefer it that way, the guy in the OPs band may not.

[wc8485]

Sounds like your guitarist needs to spend time tweaking the unit at a rehearsal. This has been mentioned previously. Factory pre-sets are most times, unusable in a band setting.

Have the manual on hand.
Some specific parameters to zero in on as a suggestion: Volume level, EQ, Compression, and Reverb/Delay.
For me, those are the parameters that have caused my tone to "wash" out in a band mix.
Do a soundcheck prior to each song at rehearsa,l if ya have to, and set levels, EQ, etc.
The tones he dials in at home will not sound the same with the band.

Something to try, Not centric to his settings or tonelab though:
Run a buffer into the tonelab. A boss TU-2 or something similar... "Sometimes" running a buffer into a modeller helps to warm up the tone a bit.

[BlueStrat]

 

Please recreate the sounds of The Edge, The Cure, hell CCR (trem) without FX. A properly programmed MFX will allow you to do them all with one stomp. It's just a pain to program them in, but once you do, you do tend to find 3-4 sounds you can use for a base, then add FX to taste. I run a GT10 in my amps FX loop for FX and looping, good OD pedals in front of the amp. I do more tapdancing, but I prefer it that way, the guy in the OPs band may not.

 

 

 

I don't know. I played in some great cover bands over the last 38 years, most of them well before we had any modelers or FX boards of any kind. We just used a couple of stomp boxes. Didn't seem to hinder us. The fact is, most people in the crowd don't judge you on whether you sound just like the Edge or anyone else. They just want to hear the song played well.

 

Most tone is in the hands anyway, and no modeler is going to make you sound like anyone else. I have several Robben Ford cds and videos. In them he plays strats, LPs, Teles, and 335s. He has in some cases an array of pedals and other cases a rack mounted system. He plays through multiple or varying amps. And in every one he sounds just like Robben Ford.

 

I don't mind modelers or FX boards if it's the preference of the player (I use a little Roland Cube 30 at small gigs that has 6 amp settings- mainly because I don't always want to drag out my 50 pound tube amp.) But they certainly aren't a necessity to be in a successful band.

[wades_keys]

The best sounding 2 guitar bands I've ever heard incorporate distinct tones into the mix - in other words the one guy isn't trying to sound exactly like the other.

E.G. If your lead player has a bass heavy brown sound with humbuckers, then try using single coil axe for rhythm. On it's own, that tone may sound thin but in the mix it will have it's own sonic space and will cut through a lot better.

One mistake I often hear is when both guitarists are going for a bass-heavy, brown sound.

In the mix with bass and drums that awesome solo sound will get buried more times than not.

Same deal with scooped mids. Bottom line is don't expect your solo/bedroom tone to sound good at all in a band setting - allow some time in band rehearsal to build your tones on the fly in that situation.

This is one weakness IMO of modelers - folks are afraid to get in there and adjust the tones once they've brought them to band rehearsal.

[Kramerguy]

simplify. a good tube amp is better than all the multi FX super pod crap in the world. also a guitarist doesn't really need more than 2 or 3 tones. better to have 1 sound that sits well in the mix than 25 that sound like crap. no one notices whether you nailed the freebird tone or not. everyone notices if they can't hear you.

It's not just about nailing the freebird tone, it's about coming close. Not to freebird, so much as EVERY song you play. You want only two or three tones? That's fine, if your an originals band, and your tones allow you to be unique, but when you play covers, and only have three tones, every song starts sounding the same, like I mentioned before, like a jam band or party band.

Nothing will make you stand out less, or sound like every other party band out there than a lack of diverse tones, especially considering you aren't just playing freebird, but also adding in hendrix, tom petty, van halen, led zep, etc...

What will make you stand out is not nailing the tones exactly, but at least coming close enough to make each song diverse, and at least sound something like the original.

I just went out and saw a classic to modern rock cover band last weekend... the guitarist used three tones: clean, distortion, and a eq/gain for leads. Skynyrd, jimmy eat world, and every other song had the same tone I wanted to leave after the first set, but stayed to see if anything changed... nope.

And they weren't a bad band by any measure.. They were well rehearsed and played well, a good party band.. but didn't stand out from any other good party band...

[taco-man]

I used to think that cover bands need to nail everything like the original, but I left that idea behind a long time ago. I get bored with that. I want to hear a musician's unique take on cover material. It's all a matter of taste. A lot of people feel the exact same way as Kramerguy.

Anyway, I think they OP's real issue here is that the guy needs to spend more time tweaking his settings. Those multi-effects units have so many settings: the preamp gain/level/tone, compression, sub-compression, EQ, sub-EQ, parametric EQ, input/output levels, high-cut, low-cut on various effects, direct/effect mix and on and on.... some have low, medium and high gain options for each model.

The band is also going to need to be patient with it during rehearsal and give him feedback on how it sounds.

Or you can fire him.

[BlueStrat]

I just went out and saw a classic to modern rock cover band last weekend... the guitarist used three tones: clean, distortion, and a eq/gain for leads. Skynyrd, jimmy eat world, and every other song had the same tone I wanted to leave after the first set, but stayed to see if anything changed... nope. And they weren't a bad band by any measure.. They were well rehearsed and played well, a good party band.. but didn't stand out from any other good party band...

That'[s the curse of being a guitar player. We tend to judge other players based on OUR preferences for minor details. The real indicator is if the crowd was staying or leaving. Because in my experience the ones who are actually listening don't give two shakes about your tone or FX patch. All they care is if it sounds good and is recognizable.

 

I once saw a band in Las Vegas with a pretty decent guitar player playing a Strat straight into a Twin with the most annoying piercing clean tone you ever heard. And they were playing Skynyrd and Zep and ZZ Top and lot of other stuff. No distortion or overdrive on the guitar whatsoever. And the place was packed and then dance floor filled with every song.

 

That was in 1978 and was my first lesson in how closely crowds pay attention and what they care about.

 

If a player prefers a wider pallette of tones to play with and he feels it makes him better as a player I have no problem with it. I just don't think anyone really needs it to have a successful band when you're playing for mostly non-musicians who really don't appreciate the differences.

[GCDEF]

really? how many tube amp manufacturers are trying to 'recreate that POD sound?'

 

 

Does that question make sense to you?

[rorylawford]

It's not just about nailing the freebird tone, it's about coming close. Not to freebird, so much as EVERY song you play. You want only two or three tones? That's fine, if your an originals band, and your tones allow you to be unique, but when you play covers, and only have three tones, every song starts sounding the same, like I mentioned before, like a jam band or party band. Nothing will make you stand out less, or sound like every other party band out there than a lack of diverse tones, especially considering you aren't just playing freebird, but also adding in hendrix, tom petty, van halen, led zep, etc... What will make you stand out is not nailing the tones exactly, but at least coming close enough to make each song diverse, and at least sound something like the original. I just went out and saw a classic to modern rock cover band last weekend... the guitarist used three tones: clean, distortion, and a eq/gain for leads. Skynyrd, jimmy eat world, and every other song had the same tone I wanted to leave after the first set, but stayed to see if anything changed... nope. And they weren't a bad band by any measure.. They were well rehearsed and played well, a good party band.. but didn't stand out from any other good party band...

While I believe using a modeller to allow you to mimic the original guitar tones on a song-by-song or artist-by-artist basis may be a nice added touch indeed, I do believe that perhaps our own biases as a guitarist colours our own perception of what we hear when seeing other bands. Because recreating the original guitar tone of each artist is important to us when we play, another player who doesn't do that will fall short in our estimation because we place a premium on those tonal nuances. However, i truly believe that as audiences go, such nuances will be all but lost on everyone except the musicians in the crowd.

Within reason of course, you're not normally going to do Skynrd with the same scooped/saturated sound you'd use to play Metallica and vice versa, but I feel for my bands, if you have a good clean tone, a good 70's crunch tone, a good high gain rhythm tone and a good boosted high gain lead tone - you're set for just about anything in a rock format. The rest is in your fingers - at least for me in my own opinion.

[cooterbrown]

 

While I believe using a modeller to allow you to mimic the original guitar tones on a song-by-song or artist-by-artist basis may be a nice added touch indeed, I do believe that perhaps our own biases as a guitarist colours our own perception of what we hear when seeing other bands. Because recreating the original guitar tone of each artist is important to us when we play, another player who doesn't do that will fall short in our estimation because we place a premium on those tonal nuances. However, i truly believe that as audiences go, such nuances will be all but lost on everyone except the musicians in the crowd.

 

 

That's mostly true, but if the guitarist is happy and confident in his tone, that should translate to his/her performance.

The guy who constantly tap-dancing and fiddling with knobs, all night long, isn't going to put over the material, no matter how good he is.

As far as "sounding like the original" I don't want to recreate somebody's tone, as much as have my own awesome tone, that suggests the original version.

[rorylawford]

That's mostly true, but if the guitarist is happy and confident in his tone, that should translate to his/her performance. The guy who constantly tap-dancing and fiddling with knobs, all night long, isn't going to put over the material, no matter how good he is. As far as "sounding like the original" I don't want to recreate somebody's tone, as much as have my own awesome tone, that suggests the original version.

 

 

I couldn't agree more.

[Kramerguy]

I admit that being a guitar player, sure, I'm always comparing when I see bands perform. I also make it a point to remind myself of that, constantly.

 

Which is why I made it a point to say the guitarist was good, hell ... he was real good.

 

My point wasn't about trying to find fault in the band, so much as point out the one flaw that nobody (non-musicians) there noticed- Everyone thought the band was good. I thought the band was good. I personally shoot for something that will separate my band from just being 'good'. More diverse song selections, more diverse sound, more diverse everything. Sure, may bomb now and again, but will also shine brighter now and again too.

 

Cooter, it's already been mentioned that if the pedal is properly programmed, that the "tap dancing" can be kept to a minimum.. it's all in the prep and how well the guitarist uses the pedal.

 

And even though I'm a musician, I'm also a listener, like anyone else. There's tons of music I hate playing, but love listening to, and vice versa. It's not about what I like to hear vs. play so much as just hearing some diversity in a live band. Every song with a D-G-C combo shouldn't sound the same. It's pretty terrible when you can't tell what the song is until the vocals come in, simply because the notes and the tone never change. (and why would a band play EIGHT songs in a row with the same chord structure?!?)

[fanuvbrak]

I used to think that cover bands need to nail everything like the original, but I left that idea behind a long time ago. I get bored with that. I want to hear a musician's unique take on cover material. It's all a matter of taste. A lot of people feel the exact same way as Kramerguy. Anyway, I think they OP's real issue here is that the guy needs to spend more time tweaking his settings. Those multi-effects units have so many settings: the preamp gain/level/tone, compression, sub-compression, EQ, sub-EQ, parametric EQ, input/output levels, high-cut, low-cut on various effects, direct/effect mix and on and on.... some have low, medium and high gain options for each model. The band is also going to need to be patient with it during rehearsal and give him feedback on how it sounds. Or you can fire him.

 

 

 

I personally stay away from modellers because I love buttons and knobs and tweaking. I brought home a Pod XT and spent three weeks tweaking sounds and I ended up with 83 patches that sounded exactly the same. I took the Pod back the next week because I knew I would never get past that tweaking.

 

As far as the real situation, I called the guy and we agreed to meet a couple of hours before the next practice to align our tones. I said that since I didn't have the tools to change tones on the fly, I'd be the constant and he could change around me and it should give us a pretty varied sound.

 

So when we went through this, we placed our amps right next to each other and he went through each of the patches he'd created. It was immediately apparent where it needed to be fixed. I'm very midrangy, and we found it worked really well when he was scooped or bright.

 

Luckily, the drummer showed up kind of early and we saw where some of the patches high frequency were being killed by the cymbals.

 

Practice went pretty well. We still have some tweaking to do where the bass eats into some of his bottom, but we're definitely on the right track.

[Kramerguy]

So when we went through this, we placed our amps right next to each other and he went through each of the patches he'd created. It was immediately apparent where it needed to be fixed. I'm very midrangy, and we found it worked really well when he was scooped or bright. Luckily, the drummer showed up kind of early and we saw where some of the patches high frequency were being killed by the cymbals. Practice went pretty well. We still have some tweaking to do where the bass eats into some of his bottom, but we're definitely on the right track.

 

 

Exactly what needed to be done. I bet you guys sound a world better together now.

[Lopp]

fanuvbrak,

Congrats on taking good steps to align your tones.

As far as "sounding like the original" I don't want to recreate somebody's tone, as much as have my own awesome tone, that suggests the original version.

+2

I do the same thing. If you have your own good tone, it can help your band stand out in that you have a signature sound. People will recognize you for your unique sound and how you play their favorite covers with your own vibe. Not only that, but you can move around on stage more when using only a few of your own tones allows as opposed to being tied to your pedalboard to keep switching sounds.

Which is not to say trying to nail the exact tone for each song is a bad thing. Hell, that is damn impressive. Even if the guitarist is tap dancing at his board a lot, if it sounds great, more power to him for nailing those tones.

As already mentioned, as musicians and guitarists, we probably scrutinize another musician/guitarist's presence and sound more than your average patron. The majority of drunken patrons may not be able to pinpoint why they love a band, they just know it sounds good and they are having fun.

[Rich4Once]

I use a rack rig based on the ADA MP-1. My basic tones are Marshall-esque. I use a variety of guitars, with both humbucking and singlecoil pickups. My co-guitarist uses an Epiphone Les Paul through a Peavey 5150 and an assortment of Boss pedals. We play in a cover band doing Styx, Journey, and REO, as well as newer music from Nickelback, Seether, All-American Rejects, etc.

 

We get very different tones, and they compliment each other well. We don't worry about matching exact tones of the songs, although I tend to get closer by using different guitars for different sounds.

 

For a guy using a modeller, he's gotta be aware of how his tones fit in with the band, and tweak accordingly. There's no way he can just show up and play with a band unless he's adjusted everything ahead of time to work at stage volume.

 

I had to do this with my rack rig, too...writing tones at bedroom volume never works. I have solo boosts and effects programmed so that I can get what I want instantly via MIDI. I had to set volumes and effects levels at very high volume in my basement, so when I got to rehearsal I was 90% there. I was able to tweak the other 10% at rehearsal without disrupting things too much.

[stevesherbert]

all i'm saying is that you really should have 2 or 3 KILLER tones nailed (maybe clean, crunch, lead) before you bother with all the extra bells and whistles. i think of delay or chorus or flanging as an augmentation of one of my main tones, not as an entirely new sound in itself. if i had a digital modeler, i'd definitely use a line selector so i could bypass the awful tone suck when i'm not using it so my 3 main sounds are pristine.

[Rich4Once]

all i'm saying is that you really should have 2 or 3 KILLER tones nailed (maybe clean, crunch, lead) before you bother with all the extra bells and whistles. i think of delay or chorus or flanging as an augmentation of one of my main tones, not as an entirely new sound in itself. if i had a digital modeler, i'd definitely use a line selector so i could bypass the awful tone suck when i'm not using it so my 3 main sounds are pristine.

 

 

Agreed 100%!

[wades_keys]

I personally stay away from modellers because I love buttons and knobs and tweaking. I brought home a Pod XT and spent three weeks tweaking sounds and I ended up with 83 patches that sounded exactly the same. I took the Pod back the next week because I knew I would never get past that tweaking. As far as the real situation, I called the guy and we agreed to meet a couple of hours before the next practice to align our tones. I said that since I didn't have the tools to change tones on the fly, I'd be the constant and he could change around me and it should give us a pretty varied sound. So when we went through this, we placed our amps right next to each other and he went through each of the patches he'd created. It was immediately apparent where it needed to be fixed. I'm very midrangy, and we found it worked really well when he was scooped or bright. Luckily, the drummer showed up kind of early and we saw where some of the patches high frequency were being killed by the cymbals. Practice went pretty well. We still have some tweaking to do where the bass eats into some of his bottom, but we're definitely on the right track.

That's exactly what I was talking about - finding your own space in the mix rather than competing for the same frequencies.

Good deal man.

[sickman]

IAnd even though I'm a musician, I'm also a listener, like anyone else. There's tons of music I hate playing, but love listening to, and vice versa. It's not about what I like to hear vs. play so much as just hearing some diversity in a live band. Every song with a D-G-C combo shouldn't sound the same. It's pretty terrible when you can't tell what the song is until the vocals come in, simply because the notes and the tone never change. (and why would a band play EIGHT songs in a row with the same chord structure?!?)

 

 

Dude, off the top of my head I could play Can't You See, Sweet Home Alabama, Fall to Pieces (Velvet Revolver), Shine (Collective Soul), Thank You (Led Zeppelin), etc on an acoustic and if you are familiar with the songs you could tell what they are. Rythym and dynamics also has a lot to do with it.

[Kramerguy]

 

Dude, off the top of my head I could play Can't You See, Sweet Home Alabama, Fall to Pieces (Velvet Revolver), Shine (Collective Soul), Thank You (Led Zeppelin), etc on an acoustic and if you are familiar with the songs you could tell what they are. Rythym and dynamics also has a lot to do with it.

 

 

I'm not saying a great musician can't. I'm only saying that a more diverse and properly refined sound library can't hurt either. Acoustic gigs are a totally different matter, but for full band gigs, I stand by what I said.

[wades_keys]

I'm not saying a great musician can't. I'm only saying that a more diverse and properly refined sound library can't hurt either. Acoustic gigs are a totally different matter, but for full band gigs, I stand by what I said.

 

I agree with this. It doesn't mean that others that don't do this are wrong, or somehow short-changing the audience.

 

But - marketing guru Jack Trout claims rather convincingly that all marketing must center around finding your differentiating factor.

 

Taking the time to more accurately model your tones after the original can be an effective differentiating factor for your band: I personally take this approach with regards to my keyboard sounds - rather than finding a stock preset that's close enough, I will take the time to find out what synth the original artist used, and then do my best to emulate that sound with my VA, creating a custom preset for every song requiring keyboards. Do I have to do this? Probably not.

 

But I'd like to think that the difference is noticeable to even audience members - we're often guilty of dumbing down or audience, and to an extent that's true; but even the most musically ignorant fan can tell when your version sounds "just like it".

[mynameistaken]

It isn't always just the volume that needs to be tweaked for each patch, but the EQ. Some tones are just going to get buried in the mix. This will happen most often when you try and set up your tones from these boxes while playing alone. It just doesn't work good because what sounds good by itself will often not work in a band mix. That is why it is easier to go with 4 or 5 basic tones with those things. Max

 

 

:thu:agree

 

I had a GT8 for a year or so and eventually canned it for pedals. I have 3 basic gain stages now and am very happy with my rig. If anything I need more delay and reverb to thicken the mix since I am the only guitarist in the band.

[pjrake]

all i'm saying is that you really should have 2 or 3 KILLER tones nailed (maybe clean, crunch, lead) before you bother with all the extra bells and whistles.

 

 

+1000!!!

 

-PJ