Selfish Songs?

[jeff42]

so a former drum student of mine has started his own cover band. He and a few others have been working up a show filled with mainstream rock stuff and the set looks soild. I have been helping when I can and giving him some input about song selection. Everything seems pretty good and there is nothing in there that seems self serving or too obscure to be enjoyed. This from day one was their goal. Play covers and make cash.

 

so he calls me and asks me how to handle this one: Their bassist is bitching about song selection. He wants to play some songs "for himself." The songs mentioned I don't even remember because they are from bands I have never heard of. The rest of the band is against it but they are willing to compromise.

 

So what's your take? How many obscure selfish songs would ruin a good night? 1? 2? 7? To me It depends on how good the band is doing that night. If they are awesome and play something I don't know or like, I'll deal with it but if it is 2-3 or more in a row I may start thinging of leaving

 

Just something to chat about today.

[wheresgrant3]

I played in a band for 5 years that were mainly 'non-mainstream' cover songs. If was a punk cover band and of course we had some radio favorites plugged in... but there was a large part of our setlist that was devoted to b-side covers and songs by bands that never made mainstream radio but were popular indies. We were very popular (an anti cover band) and it was a fun ride... however very limited in where we could play and types of gigs that were offered. Certainly not a great money maker but loads of fun.

[GCDEF]

Depends what they are and whether they're in context with the rest of what the band plays.

[BlueStrat]

 

so a former drum student of mine has started his own cover band. He and a few others have been working up a show filled with mainstream rock stuff and the set looks soild. I have been helping when I can and giving him some input about song selection. Everything seems pretty good and there is nothing in there that seems self serving or too obscure to be enjoyed. This from day one was their goal. Play covers and make cash. so he calls me and asks me how to handle this one: Their bassist is bitching about song selection. He wants to play some songs "for himself." The songs mentioned I don't even remember because they are from bands I have never heard of. The rest of the band is against it but they are willing to compromise. So what's your take? How many obscure selfish songs would ruin a good night? 1? 2? 7? To me It depends on how good the band is doing that night. If they are awesome and play something I don't know or like, I'll deal with it but if it is 2-3 or more in a row I may start thinging of leaving Just something to chat about today.

 

 

This is something every band deals with sooner or later. I get where he's coming from. There's playing for money, and there's playing for crowd response, and there's playing for self fulfillment. Think of it as 3 circles, all overlapping. The area where all 3 overlap is usually small- few people get all 3 from playing nothing but the hits.

 

My 2 cents? Throw the guy a bone. One or two songs a set of B-side stuff isn't going to hurt you, it'll keep the peace (and his interest) and who knows, you might turn those songs into your own and make them a great part of your set.

 

One thing I've learned about leading bands is that it's always, ALWAYS about the people first, and you do everything you can to make everyone happy and feel a part of it. Sometimes it doesn't work, and you end up parting company, but you do so knowing you gave it your best shot.

 

You may also want to set the guy down and remind him that when you formed the band, you all agreed to a specific format. You may give him 5 or 6 songs over the course of the evening (out of 50 songs, that isn't a lot) but they have to be within the genre you're doing and they have to be danceable. Something like that.

[Vito Corleone]

 

So what's your take? How many obscure selfish songs would ruin a good night? 1? 2? 7? To me It depends on how good the band is doing that night. If they are awesome and play something I don't know or like, I'll deal with it but if it is 2-3 or more in a row I may start thinging of leaving

 

 

It depends.

 

On the song, on the band, on the rest of the setlist. If they are a dance/party band and want to stick in 1 selfish song a set that still fits with the dance/party vibe of the rest of the set, they can probably get away with one a set. If it's an obscure song AND totally from left field (doing Dream Theater in the middle of a set of Lady Gaga songs...) then it could kill the whole set. Even WITH a obscure but still danceable song the band needs to be prepared to have to re-start the momentum they were building after that song is over. If the song is a total dud, even this bass player should be able to admit that after a performance or two.

 

Sometimes the only way to get some people in the band to understand what's wrong with their song choices is to play them out so they can see for themselves why they don't work.

 

Not that this would work for this band or many others, but I handled it this way with my band: we often get asked to play a 'cocktail' or 'dinner' set at weddings or corporate gigs. So when we were working up material for that, I opened up the songlist to the band and said "here's everyone's chance to be totally self-indulgent." Everyone got to pick a few songs they know we would NEVER get away with in the regular set but are just fine for kick-back listening/background music.

[Rezrover]

Selfish or unpopular?

[Kramerguy]

Nothing wrong with obscure b-sides, at least a few of them- Here's what I learned:

 

- Pick songs that had at least some radio success, as a b-side or minor hit. If nobody recognizes a song, you will probably get a very poor crowd response.

- Make sure to rotate them between gigs, have 7-10 b-songs if you want, but keep them down to 1-2 per set. You don't need to play all of them at every gig. This helps on 2 levels as the member who wanted more diversity gets even more than they expected at rehearsals.

- The most common mistake I see with bands is they ALL want to be different and not play the "same songs everyone else is". We made that same mistake, but when we did a private party and the crowd wanted SWA, BEG, etc.. and we didn't "do" those songs.. well.. let's just say it was the worst gig I ever played and we got heckled pretty bad...

 

Looking at my local CL - check out some of the band ads- all claim they don't play what every other band plays. Most of them will never make it past their 2nd gig...

 

http://reading.craigslist.org/muc/

[TrickyBoy]

 

My 2 cents? Throw the guy a bone. One or two songs a set of B-side stuff isn't going to hurt you, it'll keep the peace (and his interest) and who knows, you might turn those songs into your own and make them a great part of your set.

 

 

I agree with this so long as the song still fits with what the band does as a whole. Using us an an example, we can get away with anything from Enter Sandman to Current Top 40. So long as we stay in that range, we can make it work. Slayer... not so much.

[stigmataguitar]

Playing "covers and making cash" & B-side obscure songs generally never go well together!

 

If their primary goal is to "play covers and make cash" yet the bassist wants some songs for "himself" and the rest of the band is against it then I would probably have a sit down as a band and remind the bass player of that goal. I am not against throwing the guy a bone but how many bones have to be thrown and where does it end?

[bnelly428]

a simple "no" will suffice, unfortunately to be a successful party/dance band there is a formula, and if you stray from it you can kill your dancefloor or worse people may leave/get the wrong impression of you.

 

stick to the hits = money

self indulgence = empty bars and less $$

[jeff42]

I told him a few of our experiences:

 

* originally our set was about 50% selfish tunes. We are at about 1% selfish and that's just cuz they overlap with mainstream music.

 

* a guitar player we had a few years ago spent a very long time learning the song Still Got The Blues by Gary Moore. He wanted to do this song so bad so we threw him a bone. The song bombed. We continued to play it for months. It didn't catch on with people. We finally talked him into letting us drop it. He interest in the band started to decline after that.

 

* Our keyboard player bugged us for months to learn Beer by Reel Big Fish. We did and it bombed. We compromised and played early in our show for awhile before deciding to drop it. Its a fun song but no one cared. It got to the point where there was no room for it.

 

Why play that to a crowd that wants to hear and dance to songs they know?

 

Every once in awhile one someone will come up with a selfish song. in the past we would do them but lately we have been saying no. Some of the guys have found other outlets for them to get their "musicial intergrity on." Like our bassist plays in a 70s Prog rock tribute 2-3X a year and that gets all the Old Genesis & Kansas out of his system. So he can stomach Jesse's girl for another 6 months.

[Marko]

I hate when a song doesn

[JohnMCA72]

 

This is something every band deals with sooner or later. I get where he's coming from. There's playing for money, and there's playing for crowd response, and there's playing for self fulfillment. Think of it as 3 circles, all overlapping. The area where all 3 overlap is usually small- few people get all 3 from playing nothing but the hits. My 2 cents? Throw the guy a bone. One or two songs a set of B-side stuff isn't going to hurt you, it'll keep the peace (and his interest) and who knows, you might turn those songs into your own and make them a great part of your set. One thing I've learned about leading bands is that it's always, ALWAYS about the people first, and you do everything you can to make everyone happy and feel a part of it. Sometimes it doesn't work, and you end up parting company, but you do so knowing you gave it your best shot. You may also want to set the guy down and remind him that when you formed the band, you all agreed to a specific format. You may give him 5 or 6 songs over the course of the evening (out of 50 songs, that isn't a lot) but they have to be within the genre you're doing and they have to be danceable. Something like that.

 

 

I agree, & I use that "3 overlapping circles" model a lot myself. Every song can be represented as a dot somewhere within those 3 circles. Somewhere in the overlap of 2 circles is usually good; within the overlap of all 3 is usually a slam-dunk. Outside any overlap, you just never know.

 

The thing about "you never know" is, you never know! One thing I do know is that I don't really "know" anything - at least when picking songs - & I'm not sure that anybody really does. I've seen plenty of bombs that I thought would go over, & plenty of others that I figured had no chance but just killed anyway. So, I make a policy that anything that anybody wants to try, we'll try it. Everybody promises to give it their best shot at making it work, whether they particularly like it or not, think it'll work or not, etc. When (if) we can nail it, we'll try it out. If it works, we keep it; if it doesn't, it gets scrapped.

 

What I call "vanity songs" are those that somebody wants to do, just to show off their chops. No real expectation that anybody in the audience will know it, or care for it particularly other than (hopefully) to appreciate the skill it took to pull it off. Songs like that, I try to put into the set-opening positions where people are drifting back from bathroom/smoke breaks, etc. & aren't quite ready to dance yet, anyway. As noted, nothing kills a groove better (worse) than an obscure tune that nobody off stage knows/cares about, so I figure it's best to put them where they'll do the least damage.

 

Some vanity songs get dropped after awhile, when even the guy who wanted it gets tired of playing it to luke-warm responses at best. Every now & then, one kills & gets put into a better spot (usually after something with a compatible groove, that's better-known).

[HarpNinjaMike]

 

What I call "vanity songs" are those that somebody wants to do, just to show off their chops. No real expectation that anybody in the audience will know it, or care for it particularly other than (hopefully) to appreciate the skill it took to pull it off. Songs like that, I try to put into the set-opening positions where people are drifting back from bathroom/smoke breaks, etc. & aren't quite ready to dance yet, anyway. As noted, nothing kills a groove better (worse) than an obscure tune that nobody off stage knows/cares about, so I figure it's best to put them where they'll do the least damage. Some vanity songs get dropped after awhile, when even the guy who wanted it gets tired of playing it to luke-warm responses at best. Every now & then, one kills & gets put into a better spot (usually after something with a compatible groove, that's better-known).

 

 

I've been trying to do songs like this early in the night, to start set 2, or towards the end of set three. None of them are really long or jammy. We don't have a huge playlist yet (nearing 45), and I am trying to rotate the "selfish" songs based on what would go over best at the venue.

 

That being said, we aren't in the top-tier coverband category and just starting out. So, for the venues and money we are playing for, it is pretty easy to play some of the "selfish" tunes without causing problems. I probably wouldn't put them on the set list in other situations.

[mstreck]

Sometimes the only way to get some people in the band to understand what's wrong with their song choices is to play them out so they can see for themselves why they don't work.

 

[benzem]

Our senior prom band was pretty good, everyone was dancing and then..

 

Tom Sawyer!

 

They even apologized b4 they played it. Explaining how hard they had worked on it. Like we cared:poke:

[CleveRocks]

 

This is something every band deals with sooner or later. I get where he's coming from. There's playing for money, and there's playing for crowd response, and there's playing for self fulfillment. Think of it as 3 circles, all overlapping. The area where all 3 overlap is usually small- few people get all 3 from playing nothing but the hits. .

 

 

I like the overlapping circles analogy, but what's the difference between the "for money" circle and the "for crowd response" circle? Aren't they the same thing?

[bish0p34]

Our senior prom band was pretty good, everyone was dancing and then.. Tom Sawyer! They even apologized b4 they played it. Explaining how hard they had worked on it. Like we cared:poke:

 

I cannot describe how amazed I am at the response for this song. We play it often, and always ask they crowd if they want Tom Sawyer, or "x" that we do. They go nuts for it. Completely nuts. It's the one selfish moment in our band that works.

 

I'm still shocked.

[cooterbrown]

My new band was developed totally for me, so eveything about it is selfish.

I picked the genre, the songs, my musicians.

But I'm not taking this gig to the usual booty-shaking clubs around here.

There are a couple of places in town that hire bands because they are talented and play good music...people don't need to dance - they will actually sit, listen, and appreciate...and they may dance if they get the notion. Since I only plan on playing out once or twice a month, I don't need any more than those two or three clubs.

[wheresgrant3]

I cannot describe how amazed I am at the response for this song. We play it often, and always ask they crowd if they want Tom Sawyer, or "x" that we do. They go nuts for it. Completely nuts. It's the one selfish moment in our band that works. I'm still shocked.

 

 

That is totally awesome!!!

[BlueStrat]

 

I like the overlapping circles analogy, but what's the difference between the "for money" circle and the "for crowd response" circle? Aren't they the same thing?

 

 

 

Not necessarily. I have guys in my band who go out and play side projects in small taverns for gas money and free beer and get great crowd response. But in those places, 50 people is a good crowd.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Not necessarily. I have guys in my band who go out and play side projects in small taverns for gas money and free beer and get great crowd response. But in those places, 50 people is a good crowd.

 

 

Yeah, but that's a function of the venue and not the song. I too, am I having a hard time thinking of a song you'd play "for the money" but not "for the crowd" or vice versa. Unless I guess maybe it was something a client or tipping-patron asked you to play even though everyone else in the crowd didn't care for it?

 

But I DO like your concept of over-lapping circles. Definately makes the right point!

[Kramerguy]

Yeah, but that's a function of the venue and not the song. I too, am I having a hard time thinking of a song you'd play "for the money" but not "for the crowd" or vice versa. Unless I guess maybe it was something a client or tipping-patron asked you to play even though everyone else in the crowd didn't care for it? But I DO like your concept of over-lapping circles. Definately makes the right point!

 

playing indie-folk originals in a coffee house - ZERO money, but the crowd does enjoy the music

[Vito Corleone]

playing indie-folk originals in a coffee house - ZERO money, but the crowd does enjoy the music

 

Yeah, but again, isn't that more a function of the venue? It's not like if you went into the same gig with different material they'd pay you more, right?

[Micky Z]

I wish I'd had that analogy last night - my wife (who's also my band's "sound guy") and I got into a disagreement about how to pick new songs for the band. Everybody in the band right now is suggesting new songs, and a lot of them are, um, less than commercially viable IMHO. Her point was you pick songs that the crowd wants (like off the DJ top 200), and if the players don't like it, suck it up and do it anyway. My point was that it's a balancing act between what the players want and what the crowd wants, and the more they intersect the better. My thought is that happy players playing popular songs that players want to play is a good thing. Then again, I will admit that the band is still too new to have decided on a uniform musical identity beyond "classic rock".