Harmony vocals vs. "I just sing lead, man"

[stevesherbert]

 

No offense man, but I gotta call bull{censored} on this one. Some people just don't have the range or ability to sing well, and it has nothing at all to do with dedication or effort. Just like some folks can play guitar for years, applying themselves as best they can, and still not have the dexterity and fluidity to play "Eruption" or more complex pieces. THat's just the way the cookie crumbles: we're not all equal in this game of music, or life itself for that matter.

 

 

re-read the post again. i think what he's saying is that people who spend all their time learning leads note-for-note but still half-ass their way through rhythm parts or can't improvise over chord changes are just as useless/un-dedicated/selfish as "singers" who can't/won't take the time to learn to sing backup properly.

 

edit: oops austin beat me to it!

[vanlatte]

I don't get this either, probably because I would rather sing harmony than lead anyway. Just comes easy to me. In fact sometimes when I try to sing lead I end up singing the harmony instead.

[TrickyBoy]

One more thing to add. I am not nearly as good of a harmony singer as our drummer and Meagan. They are both just naturally talented at it. I mean it's really neat to watch. On songs I sing, Meagan will just say something like "I'll go high and you go low" and the next run through, we've got three part harmony.

 

I can usually hit the third or fifth above by ear, but more complicated parts take work for me.

[SeniorBlues]

 

I can usually hit the third or fifth above by ear, but more complicated parts take work for me.

 

 

It's one thing to fill in the parts on the fly. It's something else entirely to sing parallel close harmony beyond 1-3-5. We used to do some nice stuff with old R&B tunes, but I had to work it out carefully on keys and teach everyone their lines. Even when you give them their parts, some of them are going to be harder than most melody lines, especially given that lead singers are mostly singing lines they've hear hundreds of times.

 

Bands that can do real four part without doubling are few and far between, and to do it without having had training in a chorus or choir would be pretty impressive.

 

Horn players that can sing are a real asset . . . . Concert band is essentially the same thing as chorus.

[vanlatte]

 

Bands that can do real four part without doubling are few and far between, and to do it without having had training in a chorus or choir would be pretty impressive.

 

 

Can't say that I have ever seen anyone pull that off live. Are there any well known bands that do, maybe the Eagles? Who else?

[wades_keys]

 

Can't say that I have ever seen anyone pull that off live. Are there any well known bands that do, maybe the Eagles? Who else?

 

Journey pulls off 3 and 4 part harmonies.

 

Mostly 3, with the basist, drummer and keyboard player. Occasionally Neal Schon joins in too. They still sound phenomenal live.

[wades_keys]

 

Can't say that I have ever seen anyone pull that off live. Are there any well known bands that do, maybe the Eagles? Who else?

 

Going back a little ways:

The Oak Ridge Boys, The Statler Brothers.

 

And countless Gospel groups.

[tim_7string]

 

Journey pulls off 3 and 4 part harmonies. Mostly 3, with the basist, drummer and keyboard player. Occasionally Neal Schon joins in too. They still sound phenomenal live.

 

 

Definitely. I was especially shocked at how good Deen Castronovo's voice was when I saw some recent concert footage. Holy {censored}, can he sing!

 

If I could venture a guess, in the Steve Perry days, the harmonies were primarily Jonathan Cain (after Gregg Rolie left), then Ross Valory, then Neal Schon every so often. With Deen in the band, it's probably more like Deen, Jonathan, then Ross...and occasionally Neal.

[wades_keys]

 

Definitely. I was especially shocked at how good Deen Castronovo's voice was when I saw some recent concert footage. Holy {censored}, can he sing! If I could venture a guess, in the Steve Perry days, the harmonies were primarily Jonathan Cain (after departed), then Ross Valory, then Neal Schon every so often. With Deen in the band, it's probably more like Deen, Jonathan, then Ross...and occasionally Neal.

 

That's pretty close.

 

Actually, I've seen them live twice on their two tours with the new guy, and was surprised to see how many vocals Ross pulls off.

 

Deen is definitely the first stringer, but Ross is right behind him, followed by Cain, and then Schon. I mean - Ross sings a TON, much more than Jon: it's just hard to pick out sometimes because he tends to stand at the mic for most of the evening, but if you look up at the big screen you can see all of what's going on.

 

Yeah, Deen's a freaking BEAST. He sings the lead on "Mother/Father" and it sounds great - no strain at all. In fact, they offered him the lead vox spot after Augeri crapped out but he's happier playing drums. Go figure.

[SeniorBlues]

I think I may have posted this before, so forgive me . . . . and also for bragging. Arranging this for four parts was a source of pride.

 

Dig the suspensions.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAmcCdvZCDg

[tim_7string]

I think I may have posted this before, so forgive me . . . . and also for bragging. Arranging this for four parts was a source of pride. Dig the suspensions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAmcCdvZCDg

 

Sounds amazing! Were you part of the band or produced the song or something?

[tim_7string]

That's pretty close. Actually, I've seen them live twice on their two tours with the new guy, and was surprised to see how many vocals Ross pulls off. Deen is definitely the first stringer, but Ross is right behind him, followed by Cain, and then Schon. I mean - Ross sings a TON, much more than Jon: it's just hard to pick out sometimes because he tends to stand at the mic for most of the evening, but if you look up at the big screen you can see all of what's going on. Yeah, Deen's a freaking BEAST. He sings the lead on "Mother/Father" and it sounds great - no strain at all. In fact, they offered him the lead vox spot after Augeri crapped out but he's happier playing drums. Go figure.

 

Cool. I had no idea Ross was so essential to the vocal harmonies. From earlier Journey footage, it seemed like he didn't sing a whole lot. My mistake.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Sounds amazing! Were you part of the band or produced the song or something?

 

 

No no no. (I realize it sounded that way.)

 

We were your garden variety supper club circuit band COVERING this song. . . . . but we really did nail the vocals.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Journey pulls off 3 and 4 part harmonies. Mostly 3, with the basist, drummer and keyboard player. Occasionally Neal Schon joins in too. They still sound phenomenal live.

 

 

With a little help from their friends Track and Sample....

[Lee Knight]

 

No no no. (I realize it sounded that way.) We were your garden variety supper club circuit band COVERING this song. . . . . but we really did nail the vocals.

 

 

I love that... I grew up with that. I dig the sliding into pitch. No barbershop or auto tune. Just big ears and lotsa soul. Vocals groove too...

[Vito Corleone]

I think I may have posted this before, so forgive me . . . . and also for bragging. Arranging this for four parts was a source of pride. Dig the suspensions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAmcCdvZCDg

 

Nice sideburns, dude! :poke:

[SeniorBlues]

 

Nice sideburns, dude! :poke:

 

 

Yeah, I had lamb chops, too.

[Electric Catfish]

 

This is a pet peeve of mine but maybe I'm over-reacting to this so I'd like to get some other opinions: Unless it's a gang-vocal shout like "Pour some sugar on me" or something, I don't thing there should be more than one voice on a part. I've got a guy in the band who sometimes likes to just join in on parts and when I call him on it the usual response is something like "he sounded weak on that part so I was just helping him out." IMO, that's the WORST time to 'double up' on a part. There's nothing worse than two people trying to sing the same part with one guy being a little weak or off. I'd rather just hear the weak vocal. But more to the point is to work on the parts so they AREN'T weak. I rarely, if ever hear doubled vocals that sound good to me. And yeah..don't sing an octave above or below if it's not written that way. An octave isn't a harmony. OTHO, we work out the 3 part harmonies to Journey songs and they often have 2 of the parts either in unison or in an octave at some point or another in a phrase. The doubling that occurs there doesn't ever bother me. So maybe I AM over-reacting to the idea of doubled parts?

 

 

Totally agreed. Occasionally it can work, but it has to be planned and well rehearsed, and it has to be that way for a reason, not just because everybody wants to sing.

[tim_7string]

 

Each backup singer should be on a different note. Every song doesn't have three part harmony, but if there's not a three part harmony, there shouldn't be three people singing. Unison vocals sound amateurish and lame 99% of the time.

 

 

Yep, some songs will have a three-, four- or even five-part harmony part on the chorus, then go back to just a lead vocal on the verses. Journey's "Any Way You Want It" is a great example of this. I wouldn't want to hear three- or four-part harmony all night on every song either.

 

And I agree that unison vocals are lame. I don't mind two-part harmony on a song like "Oh Pretty Woman" or "Cinnamon Girl" where it's almost like dual-lead...but they are different notes harmonized with each other, not the same lead vocal doubled. I hate it when people do that (sing the same thing at the same time).

[tim_7string]

 

What it takes is some ear-training. The reason I was able to make a living in music for over a decade was not because I was a spectacular drummer... I was good but no wizard. What I brought was the ability to keep the beat while spontaneously singing harmonies in any key. And my voice is definitely not a great voice! I just listen and instantly hit something appropriate, and it fills things out. Like any other musical skill, it can be done by anyone willing to practice. When you're in your car listening to music, sing harmonies . Doesn't have to be to words, just scat-sing nonsense syllables to any melody you hear. Listen while doing so. Do it consistently. Give it some months, and you will find yourself able to sing harmony far better in your band.

 

 

Sorry, coyote-1. I must have missed this one.

 

I don't have that problem myself. I am like you in that I can sing harmonies on the fly, even putting harmonies into songs where there weren't any on the original recorded version of the song. I usually do that by thinking "this kind of sounds similar to this other song, I think this will work *sings*" and it usually does. Like you, that's how I've been able to keep working as a musician. Maybe my guitar playing isn't world-class quality, but coupled with the ability to sing vocal harmonies and blend in with a band musically, I'm able to make any band I play with sound better.

 

He doesn't appear to have that problem either (able to pick out and sing harmonies). He just doesn't concentrate on the backing parts as much as the lead. At one practice, he was talking about how many songs he was singing along with while driving tractor for 13 hours.

 

He wasn't talking about picking out and singing the harmony parts. I almost told him something along the lines of "hmm, just like anyone who goes to karoake, huh?" but that's too mean and not in my personality.

 

So, that pretty much defines his character. It's almost like he thinks the harmony parts are beneath him or something. Like ChordGirl said, I suspect he's an egomaniac.

[TrickyBoy]

I wouldn't want to hear three- or four-part harmony all night on every song either.

 

This :thu: The most we can do is three part harmonies (our bass player's singing resembles a dying duck). However, we probably only do that 20% of the time. The rest of the harmonies are simple two part harmonies, which for a large majority of the stuff we do, I personally think sounds best.

[Vito Corleone]

This :thu: The most we can do is three part harmonies (our bass player's singing resembles a dying duck). However, we probably only do that 20% of the time. The rest of the harmonies are simple two part harmonies, which for a large majority of the stuff we do, I personally think sounds best.

 

We just try to do what's on the original. Adding extra harmonies is rarely a good thing for a rock band, IMO. And the vast majority of stuff we do is only 2-part stuff to begin with. I don't know if we even have a dozen 3-part harmony songs throughout the night.

 

And certainly good 2 part harmony sounds much better than weak 3 part.

[TrickyBoy]

 

We just try to do what's on the original. Adding extra harmonies is rarely a good thing for a rock band, IMO. And the vast majority of stuff we do is only 2-part stuff to begin with. I don't know if we even have a dozen 3-part harmony songs throughout the night. And certainly good 2 part harmony sounds much better than weak 3 part.

 

 

It's funny, we actually add quite a bit of harmonies different than the original. The second verse of "Sweet Child" I actually sing a harmony through the whole thing. In I Want You To Want Me and I Wanna Be Sedated, we song the whole song in two part harmony.

 

But I do agree that I hear too many "wedding bands" get way to High School Chorus sounding by putting three and four part harmonies in where two part is more than sufficient.

[stevesherbert]

 

Each backup singer should be on a different note. Every song doesn't have three part harmony, but if there's not a three part harmony, there shouldn't be three people singing. Unison vocals sound amateurish and lame 99% of the time.

 

 

really??? choruses sung by a chorus of people sounds amateurish and lame? so you'd try to dissuade the crowd from singing along to one of your songs? i kind of think choruses NOT sung by most or all of the members of the band sounds lame. aren't choruses supposed to be the catchy part of the song that makes everyone want to join in? imo, if the rest of the band doesn't want to sing along, why would anyone in the crowd?

[Vito Corleone]

 

It's funny, we actually add quite a bit of harmonies different than the original. The second verse of "Sweet Child" I actually sing a harmony through the whole thing. In I Want You To Want Me and I Wanna Be Sedated, we song the whole song in two part harmony.

 

 

We add a harmony to IWYTWM as well. One of those "should have been there on the original" kinda deals I think. It just makes sense.