playing for the door

[bnelly428]

places in RI haven't broken into the "play for the door" trend, at least where we're playing. We're getting our set rate with little resistance on bad nights. I have noticed MORE people coming out when we play, whether that is because our draw is increasing or people are going out to the clubs we play more is unknown. But I'll take it.

[jeff42]

The only thing with playing for the door is that the bar owners love it when they are the ones coming out on top. Have *one* good night though and they quickly change their tune to set rates again. This happened to us... We played for the door at one venue with a guarantee... until we had a $800 night at the door and then he capped us...

 

many years ago this happened to us. The bar was happy to hand us the door money that averaged out around $250-$300 every other time we gigged there when no one showed. One night we played a gig around Christmas time and all of these college kids home on break filled up the bar. Really great night and we were all thinking "this is great! They must have cleared at least $1000-$1200 at the door."

The end of the night comes around and the owner hands us around $700. He said "I NEVER pay a band more than that."

 

We never played there again and the bar closed less than a year later.

[Kramerguy]

To clarify, my cover-band just does the local bar rotations. Most of the "clubs" in this area go through media-5 or other bookers to get those "a-club" type bands. While we do have a very good draw for a local band, we're just not interested (as a band) in progressing past the 'weekend warrior' status. We don't suck, generally get lots of compliments, always get preferred bookings; but we are not an a-club band.

 

Playing for the door at a 500-capacity club is great (if the place even half-fills), but playing for the door in a small local bar.. even if we pack the place, we still only make $400 just because of the size of the place.

 

So now, instead of the $400 guarantee, we absolutely have to pack the place to reach that goal. Anything less we feel.

 

It all just bums me out simply because since the bankster crash of 2008, I've actually become dependent on the secondary income I get from gigging and also from being a backing muso in the originals act.

 

It's a bummer - I hope things turn around for bands in general.

[Poker99]

THE FUTURE OF MUSIC IS LIVE MUSIC.

 

lol

[wheresgrant3]

 

To clarify, my cover-band just does the local bar rotations. Most of the "clubs" in this area go through media-5 or other bookers to get those "a-club" type bands. While we do have a very good draw for a local band, we're just not interested (as a band) in progressing past the 'weekend warrior' status. We don't suck, generally get lots of compliments, always get preferred bookings; but we are not an a-club band. Playing for the door at a 500-capacity club is great (if the place even half-fills), but playing for the door in a small local bar.. even if we pack the place, we still only make $400 just because of the size of the place. So now, instead of the $400 guarantee, we absolutely have to pack the place to reach that goal. Anything less we feel. It all just bums me out simply because since the bankster crash of 2008, I've actually become dependent on the secondary income I get from gigging and also from being a backing muso in the originals act. It's a bummer - I hope things turn around for bands in general.

 

 

I feel your pain dude... no agencies here, everything is DIY, which maybe gives us and other bands in my area, an advantage in maintaining a guarantee for payment of services. We're not competing against anyone for gigs except ourselves. It's funny, in the markets that we do use an agent (Long Island, New England) we're seeing the club scene fall apart, bands start to lowball and rooms just stop booking bands in general. When you start to see agency bands booking in rooms notorious for low pay, or other bands asking if there are open opportunities in our backyard, then you know their local scene must not be so great. I will say that the 'niteclub economy' been severly impacted. I still see half as many people filling the clubs now as we did a few years ago. Still our business moves on. I think it's times like this when draw and recipits mean everything. Unfortunately it doesn't leave room for booking quality entertainment.

[BlueStrat]

 

THE FUTURE OF MUSIC IS LIVE MUSIC. lol

 

 

 

Yes, I remember that mantra: "give it away (your recordings)...live performance is where the money is!"

 

Except it isn't.

[BlueStrat]

 

Unfortunately it doesn't leave room for booking quality entertainment.

 

 

Sure it does. It's just that that quality entertainment likely won't be a 4 or 5 piece band with great sound and lights. There is a resurgence of singer/songwriter solos and duo now, because of the economy, and there are some great talents out there doing it. It ain't dance music, but that doesn't mean it isn't great entertainment.

[wheresgrant3]

 

The only thing with playing for the door is that the bar owners love it when they are the ones coming out on top. Have *one* good night though and they quickly change their tune to set rates again. This happened to us... We played for the door at one venue with a guarantee... until we had a $800 night at the door and then he capped us...

 

 

We haven't played for the door in years.... since 2003 I think, but here's an amusing aside. A few years ago we booked a Spring date in a local room that we would just pack to capacity (250). We had always had $$$$ guarantee there. After 10-12 shows there over three years we never had less than 200 through the door and on some nights he had record attendence.

 

The bar business near the river is pretty seasonal. In the winter you learn to book away from the river, in the summer you book on the water. The owner wanted a date in late April which is usually that tranisitional time between Winter/Summertime clubs. Our manager explained that it wasn't a good idea to book that late in the season, and the owner said he really wanted the booking. As predicted, we played and nobody came (maybe 50 the whole night). He turned to our manager and asked "I had a rough night can you help me out"... Our manager replied... "We'd love to help but a gaurantee is a gaurantee. We never asked you for more for when you had a terrific night". We all agreed to take $100 off the top which he grumbled... he wanted $600. We didn't book there in the Fall and by Jan the next year he was out of business.

[wheresgrant3]

 

Sure it does. It's just that that quality entertainment likely won't be a 4 or 5 piece band with great sound and lights. There is a resurgence of singer/songwriter solos and duo now, because of the economy, and there are some great talents out there doing it. It ain't dance music, but that doesn't mean it isn't great entertainment.

 

 

It's very true... on the small bar front. Our ex-guitarist has an acoustic act... him and a piano player/singer. They are terrific and they have more work than they no what to do with. But in bigger rooms.... it's hard to keep a larger capacity crowd engaged with a solo or acoustic duo.

[BlueStrat]

 

It's very true... on the small bar front. Our ex-guitarist has an acoustic act... him and a piano player/singer. They are terrific and they have more work than they no what to do with. But in bigger rooms.... it's hard to keep a larger capacity crowd engaged with a solo or acoustic duo.

 

 

Well, yes, but that's what's happening, isn't it? Around here, the larger venues are going belly up or not having live music except for special occasions. That leaves small bars with 300/night bands and a lot more solo/duo venues. It's getting harder and harder for a 5 piece band to find any gigs at all around here. Oh, they exist, but not the decent paying ones.

[Vito Corleone]

This has happened to us a few times in the past 6 months. Many of the places we are playing are not doing well. My band on the other hand is doing pretty well. I am seeing better sized crowds on average than last year at this time. (I just hope it continues) We are also getting calls from small places/ corner bars that are doing terrible. They want to squeeze us into a corner so they can have what they think will be a good night with us there. There is a decent place we play on occasion that IMO is repelling the crowd with bad bands. They are hiring any band that wants to come in. They are probebly only paying them the door but I feel this is having an affect on the other more established bands.

 

I want to offer some seasonal hope for the future here:

 

Reading what you've posted here, what Grant has posted and combining that with the recent thread about bands upping their game and it makes me wonder if what we are in right now isn't the bottom of the cycle. We've had years where clubs would hire just about any band and pay them next to nothing just to say they had "live music" and bands getting weaker and weaker because---why bother to be really good if the money sucks?

 

But we see from bands like yours and Grant's that not only are there clubs who WILL pay for a decent band, but now other clubs are calling YOU to get a piece of that action. AND we're seeing more and more bands stepping up their game.

 

Maybe in a couple of years we'll see a resurgance of clubs who understand that paying good money for a GOOD band is worth it for their bottom line.

[rhat]

 

Well, yes, but that's what's happening, isn't it? Around here, the larger venues are going belly up or not having live music except for special occasions. That leaves small bars with 300/night bands and a lot more solo/duo venues. It's getting harder and harder for a 5 piece band to find any gigs at all around here. Oh, they exist, but not the decent paying ones.

 

 

Around here the big club party band had their own place ,,, it went under. They are now running a smaller venue. Hopfully it will work out for them , ,.

[wheresgrant3]

Well, yes, but that's what's happening, isn't it? Around here, the larger venues are going belly up or not having live music except for special occasions. That leaves small bars with 300/night bands and a lot more solo/duo venues. It's getting harder and harder for a 5 piece band to find any gigs at all around here. Oh, they exist, but not the decent paying ones.

 

You don't have to explain that to me... I've been in longtime support of smaller rooms booking just duos or acoustic acts to begin with. I mean it's crazy the calls we get from rooms that could barely fit a 4 piece with a drummer playing a trap kit. There's a few bar owners I'm friends with that couldn't begin to think of hiring us, or fitting our band through the door, yet they think nothing of booking a $300-400 classic cover band in a space that will accomodate 30-40 people. If the bar can only hold 50 people max why would you hire a band? I think there's always that mentality that the band will bring somebody... other than regs. Still I know some acoustic duos with better followings than most bands. They take up less room, and there's no noise issue as well.

[DevilRaysFan]

 

Yes, I remember that mantra: "give it away (your recordings)...live performance is where the money is!" Except it isn't.

 

 

it isnt....but it is in merchandising, which usually goes hand-in-hand with live performance. However, this mantra (usually) only applies to original bands climbing up the ladder; very rarely does it apply to cover bands doing their local cover band thing...............

[wheresgrant3]

 

I want to offer some seasonal hope for the future here: Reading what you've posted here, what Grant has posted and combining that with the recent thread about bands upping their game and it makes me wonder if what we are in right now isn't the bottom of the cycle. We've had years where clubs would hire just about any band and pay them next to nothing just to say they had "live music" and bands getting weaker and weaker because---why bother to be really good if the money sucks? But we see from bands like yours and Grant's that not only are there clubs who WILL pay for a decent band, but now other clubs are calling YOU to get a piece of that action. AND we're seeing more and more bands stepping up their game. Maybe in a couple of years we'll see a resurgance of clubs who understand that paying good money for a GOOD band is worth it for their bottom line.

 

 

Again, my experience is different than most. Here it's largely a DIY market. No agencies, no corporate bars... just small business owners trying to draw people through entertainment. We're in a unique situation, and because of the current economic situation bars are ever more dependent on bands. Without bands, no one would come to the bar. As the economy improves and people start frequently clubs again I see us with LESS power in negotiating. I find when times are good that bar owners are less interested in what we bring to the table. They have more control over the audiences that make up their patrons.

 

Right now it all comes down to comparisons... which isn't always fair. A bar owner might have 5 bands on the roster all similar in style and equal in talent... yet one band does 2-3x's the amount of business the other four have. Those other four are constantly compared to the one band that is leading the pack out front. Frustrating yes, but also an opportunity for them, IF they set their rates competitively. In my market I can feel the tension a little. When I bump into members of other bands in the area their first question is "How did you do the other night?". I'm always fielding 20 questions, mainly because they are constantly hearing from club owners, well this is what Grant's band brings to the table, what do you have to offer. I hear alot of smack & chatter talked about us on the back channel, and I pay it no mind. In fact, it makes me laugh a little. The fact is, if it wasn't for us raising the ceiling of pay in the area most of these bands wouldn't be fighting to retain the gaurantee's they've been earning. But times are certainly tough, and we have to be at the top of our game. The same bands that smile and say 'congrats' are the same that turn around and tell the club owner that you are 'overrated'.

[BATCAT]

The title of my autobiography is going to be Playing for the Door.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Sure it does. It's just that that quality entertainment likely won't be a 4 or 5 piece band with great sound and lights. There is a resurgence of singer/songwriter solos and duo now, because of the economy, and there are some great talents out there doing it. It ain't dance music, but that doesn't mean it isn't great entertainment.

 

 

But you CAN play dance music as a duo. I did it back when we had few of the technological advances that are available now. If I could find another singing drummer like the one I had, I'd try to put something together. With all the singing guitar players out there, what's wrong with adding keys with LH bass and a drum groove? If the venue wants to pay for a drummer, great, but even without one, a decent PA will fill a pretty large room.

[Dancebass]

 

The title of my autobiography is going to be Playing for the Door .

 

 

That's better than "it stings when I pee".

[TrickyBoy]

Interesting thread. A couple of points:

 

To the OP, it seems that by limiting yourself to smaller capacity rooms, you're basically guaranteeing that you are going to end up with "playing for the door" or at best a low guarantee. As Pat stated earlier, these types of rooms are best if you can play them acoustically solo/duo. IMO, you're kind of in a catch 22. It seems you either need to do what it takes to break into the "a-clubs" or you're kinda stuck. I'm not being a jerk, but simple economics says that a 250 capacity venue can generally pay more than an 80 capacity venue.

 

As for us, we've been really fortunate to break into rooms where we only play for a guarantee. Right now our lowest paid gig is $750, but its super easy, we're done by 10pm and its only about 10 minutes from my house. Paying for the door exists down here with some lower-end clubs, but the better rooms all have a guarantee.

 

I remember when I first joined this board, Pat was on a huge kick about how it stinks that venues are these days counting on the draw of the band to make their numbers. At the time I just sat back, because on the surface you can see the club owner's point. But the more I'm playing, I've realized that the really successful clubs down here really don't rely on the band's draw at all. Instead, they promote the {censored} out of the club and then only hire good bands. That way, the club becomes the destination and you know once you're there, you're gonna get to see a good band. There's probably a good 10 or so clubs like that in town and they are always packed Thurs - Sat nights regardless of who's playing.

[DevilRaysFan]

 

But you CAN play dance music as a duo. I did it back when we had few of the technological advances that are available now. If I could find another singing drummer like the one I had, I'd try to put something together. With all the singing guitar players out there, what's wrong with adding keys with LH bass and a drum groove? If the venue wants to pay for a drummer, great, but even without one, a decent PA will fill a pretty large room.

 

 

Im doing it now, with my guitar player. I play left hand bass/right hand keys with different split-patches on my Roland RS-5 and run a Boss DR-3 drum machine with my feet. Playing with the band is better, but the duo definitely fills holes in the calendar

[SunRaFan]

 

I want to offer some seasonal hope for the future here: Reading what you've posted here, what Grant has posted and combining that with the recent thread about bands upping their game and it makes me wonder if what we are in right now isn't the bottom of the cycle. We've had years where clubs would hire just about any band and pay them next to nothing just to say they had "live music" and bands getting weaker and weaker because---why bother to be really good if the money sucks? But we see from bands like yours and Grant's that not only are there clubs who WILL pay for a decent band, but now other clubs are calling YOU to get a piece of that action. AND we're seeing more and more bands stepping up their game. Maybe in a couple of years we'll see a resurgance of clubs who understand that paying good money for a GOOD band is worth it for their bottom line.

 

 

I tend to doubt this will go in cycles. I think that what is really happening is that younger generations aren't as interested in seeing live music as their parents were. I'm 35, and I've almost never heard of anybody going out to see a band if they want to dance. They'll go somewhere with a DJ. I don't think live bands are going to recapture that crowd, so I doubt there's going to be a big trend towards better quality and higher pay. I do think live music can work, but going forward it's going to be acts that have a niche focus that's easier to promote as an event, rather than cover bands trying to have a broad appeal.

[Vito Corleone]

But the more I'm playing, I've realized that the really successful clubs down here really don't rely on the band's draw at all. Instead, they promote the {censored} out of the club and then only hire good bands. That way, the club becomes the destination and you know once you're there, you're gonna get to see a good band. There's probably a good 10 or so clubs like that in town and they are always packed Thurs - Sat nights regardless of who's playing.

 

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. A lot of us old-timers remember when all the A-clubs operated this way back in the "good old days". It seems that since that hey-day it's been a slow downward spiral of less-pay-->crummier bands-->smaller crowds-->less pay--- and on and on to the point where we are now. At some point that has to give and either live music dies out COMPLETELY or a few clubs come up with the *new* idea that if they consistantly offer top-notch entertainment, that their club will be the destination.

 

Bands have to (and many seem to be) play their role in this by being better a better entertainment product than they were a few years ago.

 

A lot of things contributed to the decline in good clubs with good live music, and many of those have been discussed here often: increased competition from DJs, stricter DUI laws, higher drinking ages, etc. But one thing that I think also coincided with all of this was that after all the over-the-top nonsense of the Big Hair 80s, "good" and "hip" bands were the ones who just got up on stage and played their songs while gazing at their shoes with little regard for show or audience response because it all about their art and their message. Not that there was anything wrong with that, and was certainly the fashion during the 90s, but it doesn't take a whole lot of stepping back to look at it and see how that isn't exactly a recipe for a live show that's going to draw a huge crowd once the "newness" of that type of live show wears off. Which was probably about the time Kurt Cobain died.

 

Bands stepping it up and trying to be something to "see" and "experience" again---in addition to being something great to "hear"--can't do anything but help, IMO.

[wheresgrant3]

Interesting thread. A couple of points: the really successful clubs down here really don't rely on the band's draw at all. Instead, they promote the {censored} out of the club and then only hire good bands. That way, the club becomes the destination and you know once you're there, you're gonna get to see a good band. There's probably a good 10 or so clubs like that in town and they are always packed Thurs - Sat nights regardless of who's playing.

 

Yes... destination is the key. Most clubs don't want to spend the money or make the effort into marketing their venue as a 'destination'. The secret to our success has been that we have marketed ourselves as a 'destination', no matter where we play... which has put us in great demand with the locals. It's easier to do that in a down economy too, because when most people go out for the evening they want to be around other people, not sitting in a half empty bar. I've said this before, a fair amount of people don't come out to see us b/c of the songs we play, it's because of the scene we've created. Again... easier to do as a party band... there's a party and we're the hosts basically. This should really be my band's 'salad days'.