playing for the door

[Kramerguy]

So I was booking us 2011 dates at one of our regular places, sitting with the owner and having a beer.. We set a bunch of dates; we got first pick on most of the year, so I snagged all the good Sat night's that I knew that place did better than worse.

 

We started talking price. Traditionally, we got a $350 guarantee. The last time we played there was just a bad weekend with low turnout. Even though I know he lost money, he did man up and pay us the guarantee. He said they've had a lot of bad weekends since, too. In fact, he said, just about every weekend was bad anymore.

 

This is a local bar, not much competition around.. and the only one that has bands in probably a 5-8 mile radius, which isn't bad.

 

So he said best he could promise is door + 'bonus' if we pack the place.. of course the bonus would be dependent on the amount of business he does. I'm not too worried about it simply because we do generally pull a decent crowd - at least enough to make $300+ on a $5 door... most nights.

 

Now this is a guy who isn't just a schmuck owner who relishes on dissing bands for some extra scratch.. he's more of a fan of live music who wanted a venue to have bands, but he leveled with me that he's losing money on them at this point, so the door is all he can really do. He's become somewhat of a friend over the last couple of years. He even gave me free beer all night one night when I was low on cash and just hanging out..

 

I think the bigger problem is just that the economy is really hurting people in this area. Everyone seems to be just tightening the belt - not going out, staying home and having small parties instead of going to bars...

 

This is about my cover-band, not my originals btw.

 

Two years ago, I never would have believed I would be settling for the door on 6 gigs like that. Now.. I'm just glad some bars still have bands

[Vito Corleone]

wow.

[snoggin]

The North Bay is very similar.. It sucks

[Kramerguy]

yeah.. I used to have a "no play for less" attitude.. but times are tough.. So many venues have closed or stopped having bands, it's nice just to be in most rotations still, as a lot of bands around here are getting squeezed out entirely.

 

And still theres a bunch of tools on craigslist with ads to form new coverbands, thinking they are going to take the scene by storm hehe.

[Scott Powell]

we have had to do the same thing. i take gigs now for prices i NEVER would have taken 10 years ago. The kicker is if you DON'T take less there are 10 bands dying to get in the door who will

[jimiv]

Same here. There really is nowhere I can think of where the clubs are paying guarantees anymore. Its all the door or some places, percentage of bar.

 

We are re-thinking our business model right now and will be doing the clubs maybe a couple of times a year and then only certain ones. We played all of the local clubs and some of the clubs in L.A. over the past 3 - 4 years and have come to the conclusion that we are not that type of band....you know, where you are expected to bring 25 - 30, 50 people, etc., because the club itself, does not have its own draw.

 

Things have changed since the 80s and 90s and ALL of the clubowners now seem to be interested only on the band's draw and will not promote live music, expecting the band to do all of that. I'm not saying that is bad, it's just how they are running their businesses now. I'm sure it is a result of the fact that people don't seem to go out "clubbing" like before. I really don't know, it's just the way it is out here.

 

We are beginning to come to the realization that classic rock is dead in the

club scene and we are not interested in playing to the twenty and thirty something crowd which require the DJ type dance stuff now.....so we decided to change direction.

 

We have decided not to try and be all things to all people and focus on one genre only...classic rock (leaning to the 80s, some 70s and some 90s). This means we will not be playing the clubs we have been playing at for the last 3 or 4 years but focusing only on those venues who feature what we play (i.e. classic rock night); festivals; classic car shows; charities; and most of all - Private functions.

 

Should be an interesting year, but if the privates take off, I wouldn't mind doing that exclusively.

[Vito Corleone]

 

We have decided not to try and be all things to all people and focus on one genre only...classic rock (leaning to the 80s, some 70s and some 90s). This means we will not be playing the clubs we have been playing at for the last 3 or 4 years but focusing only on those venues who feature what we play (i.e. classic rock night); festivals; classic car shows; charities; and most of all - Private functions. Should be an interesting year, but if the privates take off, I wouldn't mind doing that exclusively.

 

 

Privates are where it is at for bands of a certain age wanting to focus on classic rock and still make a bit of cash. 40th/50th birthday parties, 20/25/30th year class reunions, etc are going right for your wheelhouse. And people of that age tend to have a bit more money to spend. No, those people aren't going out to clubs much anymore and most bands of that age don't really have "followings".

 

It's all in the up-front sell, in my experience. Put together a slick promo pak/website, decent video demo and find the right avenues for getting your name in front of the potential clients (sites like Gigmasters have been very good for us). Back up your sale with a professional product and you're good to go. There's still a good deal of money and a LOT of fun to be had out there!

 

Good luck with your upcoming year!

[BlueStrat]

yeah.. I used to have a "no play for less" attitude.. but times are tough..

 

You and me both, brutha! I had a 100/man minimum, but my band threatened to mutiny if I didn't lower it. So now it's 75/guy. That was a hard ill to swallow, and truth be told, I'd just as soon sit home as move all my gear for that kind of money, but there are other guys involved, and it isn't just about me (even though my name's on it!)

[badhabit]

I'm sure this situation is dependent on location, as some areas are not as hard hit economically, or they have a "built in crowd", like a university nearby. But I do think the regular watering hole type places that have had live music in the past are hurting now more than ever. People don't have as much disposable income to go out and pay 4 to 5 dollars for a beer and $5.00 at the door. Then there's the ever more increased enforcement of drunk driving laws. This has been affecting live performance bands for quite awhile now. More and more places are wanting bands to play for the door with no guarantee, relying completely on the band to bring a crowd. This really bugs me, because the club has nothing to lose and everything to gain. But the band risks playing for peanuts if it's a slow night. If this is the wave of the future, bands might as well rent a venue and hold their own shows, keeping all the proceeds for themselves.

 

I do see both sides of the picture. But IMO, if a club cannot afford to guarantee a minimum to a band, the don't have bands, because you cannot afford them. The club doesn't ask the staff to work for a % of the take; that would be illegal. Why should it be different for bands?

 

The only answer I'm afraid is to not play club dates. The hours are long, the pay is lousy, you have to be there too late at night, sometimes some of the patrons can be annoying, etc. No, the answer is to do more private gigs, where the venue is not relying on the band to pay for themselves; who have budgets for entertainment/advertising. These venues include fairs, festivals, private parties, weddings, corporate events/parties, car shows, biker clubs, wineries, charitable events, and so on. Our band has been concentrating on these types of events more and more, to where we only play a club maybe once a month, with a guarantee.

[tlbonehead]

I'm kind of in the "I'll stay home if it is under $150/per" unless there is something really special about it. Although, I do have a solo gig coming up that I booked for $125, but it is a short distance and is a fairly short show.

[snoggin]

I think things arent as {censored}ty in the midwest from what I gather around here. In Ca, everyone is in a band and as jimiv states it's got nothing to do with talent. Getting a gig is dependent on how many friends or whatever YOU can bring.. or its the door or a percentage.

 

I'm seriously thinking about trying to promote a multiband show iof orignal music.. i'll probably lose my shirt lol.

 

The thing around here seems to be tributes or period bands.. Many of them are what i would call legacy bands and have been around for thirty years. But i dont think they are making big bucks either.. at least not in the clubs and bars.

 

Right Now I just play for love but i wont play for free.. Unless I;m putting on my own show and losin my shirt HAH.

 

Last week i made 75 bucks and lugged my pa

[tlbonehead]

ouch! Where is "here"?

[mstreck]

So I was booking us 2011 dates at one of our regular places, sitting with the owner and having a beer.. We set a bunch of dates; we got first pick on most of the year, so I snagged all the good Sat night's that I knew that place did better than worse. We started talking price. Traditionally, we got a $350 guarantee. The last time we played there was just a bad weekend with low turnout. Even though I know he lost money, he did man up and pay us the guarantee. He said they've had a lot of bad weekends since, too. In fact, he said, just about every weekend was bad anymore. This is a local bar, not much competition around.. and the only one that has bands in probably a 5-8 mile radius, which isn't bad. So he said best he could promise is door + 'bonus' if we pack the place.. of course the bonus would be dependent on the amount of business he does. I'm not too worried about it simply because we do generally pull a decent crowd - at least enough to make $300+ on a $5 door... most nights. Now this is a guy who isn't just a schmuck owner who relishes on dissing bands for some extra scratch.. he's more of a fan of live music who wanted a venue to have bands, but he leveled with me that he's losing money on them at this point, so the door is all he can really do. He's become somewhat of a friend over the last couple of years. He even gave me free beer all night one night when I was low on cash and just hanging out.. I think the bigger problem is just that the economy is really hurting people in this area. Everyone seems to be just tightening the belt - not going out, staying home and having small parties instead of going to bars... This is about my cover-band, not my originals btw. Two years ago, I never would have believed I would be settling for the door on 6 gigs like that. Now.. I'm just glad some bars still have bands

 

I just had the same conversation this weekend with a small venue owner that is canceling bands because they can't afford to pay them what they are asking when they literally draw 5 people. "Why should I pay a band $600 when I can have an empty bar for free?" is his logic.

 

He thanked us for always playing for the door plus 20% of the bar take. We're happy to do it there because we know we'll draw. And he always hooks us up when we go there just to "hang out" - our bar/food tabs are always drastically smaller than they should be.

 

I think they're going to rebook only the bands that have proven that they have a following in the area. There are a lot of bands that aren't gonna make the cut.

[jeff42]

 

I just had the same conversation this weekend with a small venue owner that is canceling bands because they can't afford to pay them what they are asking when they literally draw 5 people. "Why should I pay a band $600 when I can have an empty bar for free?" is his logic.

 

 

There is a bar in my area that has decided to have 3 acts. and live entertainment 2X per month.

 

The bands they will continue to book are: My band, another local band that has been around for over a decade and a father son acoustic duo that draws a great dinner crowd. THAT'S IT. The owner was tired of paying bands that had no draw. The pay is decent and is one of our higher paying gigs. I just hope we keep on drawing well for them.

[KeysBear]

I've felt bad three of the last four gigs we've played had little turnout in places that used to have 150 to 200 people show up. I've been concerned as it seems like entertainment money has just dried up around here. We're going into season and clubs are starting to cancel gigs.

[AudioArtist]

For my band we only take gigs at $100 a man or more.(we're a five piece and we bring PA)

It's covers but that's about all you can get any attention with in my area. (Greensboro NC.) Not to say that there aren't alot of places for original groups to play, but you won't get a guarantee, not around here anyway.

 

Playing for the door isn't terrible if it's a good club with it's own regular draw.

However, if you can bring 50-100 people who not only pay at the door but also are buying drink/food, then it's a bunk deal. Your 50 fans just brought in 250 on the door and 5-10$ a piece (and what's that like two drinks a head), average, at the bar, so you should have pulled at least $500 from that alone. This doesn't even account for the regulars/random people who came in.

 

Then again, if you end up with $600 or more from just club draw and you had 5 friends show up you're doing pretty well.

 

In my area it seems that many club owners are cutting back on live music, kareoke, etc.

Then of course there's always the one crappy band making $800+

 

It's tough times for everyone money wise so we'll have to make do on what we can.

[snoggin]

Marin County CA

 

 

 

 

ouch! Where is "here"?

 

[Rezrover]

Seems, the places that want to bank on your draw only want to do the door. I've seen bands that usually play to 1000+ play at places for the door and their crowd just decided not to show that night. And then they blame the venue.

[DevilRaysFan]

Heres whats happened in my area, maybe its the same for yours:

 

The economy affected it, but not the clubs: Theres usually the same amount of people in them (maybe slightly less but not damaging) then there was 8 years ago. When a bunch of people lost jobs a few years back (during the collapse), every knucklehead and his uncle that could sort-of play was forming a band for money. In less than a years time, my area was saturated with bands, and many of these bands were undercutting mainstay groups. By doing this, the tables got turned and it became a clubowner's market. They now balk at a $400 per night pro 4-Piece when they can get sub-par hack 5 piece for $250 or $300, especially if that band is bringing 40 or 50 of their friends into the club. The bar got lowered: This is all the 2010 clubowner in my area cares about, and if they can get one band of hacks for $250 with a decent draw (even if its close friends and family), they figure thats what they all should be now

[wheresgrant3]

I'm writing this as perspective... not to brag. We have a large following and a great handle on what our value is with local club owners. 2010 has been a weird year for my regional band scene, despite being a great year for us. I remember a year ago, Fall 2009, in the middle of the economic downturn seeing a drop in attendence at shows, thinking we would lose some rooms or get asked to cut our pay. Looking back, one room asked us to cut (From $1600-1300 and only book twice in 2010.. we declined) and one room closed. Out of state we lost two rooms we sporadically played in that cut back on all bands. Fair enough. When one door closes, sometimes three open. We had four new local rooms open and compete for calendar dates. At first we thought playing more local would saturate us a bit... instead it's made us white hot. For instance we played three shows last weekend, all 15 miles from each other. Broke attendence records on Wednesday (1200) and Friday night (450), and still had a respectable crowd on Saturday (more than 200 in attendence). We're also playing four local rooms that have cut all bands.... except us. We play these rooms every 8 weeks or so as an 'event' gig. These rooms no longer have a regular band night.

 

The local band scene has certainly struggled a bit. Bands are having a hard time holding on to rooms and are being asked to drop pay to stay on the roster. Although this may sound great for us, it's not really. It doesn't help us if there isn't a thriving band scene. And just because a bar cuts bands for entertainment, but continues to hire us, it doesn't mean it's a great venue. It actually puts more pressure on us to deliver. For one there aren't any other bands to compare draw too. Secondly, it's hard to attract our following to a room hiring us for an event that isn't a regular stop for live entertainment anymore. I have friends in 'good bands' that have literally been closed out of rooms because they're compared to my band and draw. Not a fair comparison. In contrast, some pretty poor bands have remained on the roster because they are still bringing bodies; albeit family, coworkers and friends.

 

Our rate has been pretty flat since 2008. We wouldn't think of raising prices with bar owners and although I do believe we are near the ceiling of pay in my area, I believe we may have some room to grow a little in 2011. What's a little shocking to hear is a few bands in similar style as us have all jacked their prices near ours without the consistent draw to show for it. One band from out of the area, that is easily a $500-800 band in their home market were booked in a few local rooms at $1500-$1800... and nobody came. Of course they lost those rooms after the 2nd-3rd appearance, however the clubowners are a bit butt hurt over it. Shams like that just make it easier for us to deliver at or above expectations.

 

 

I still see that same drop in attendence as I saw 2-3 years ago (back then we were drawing 250+ every show, now it's somewhere around 150-300 depending on the venue or event). Most of these rooms are small to medium capacity, with no PA, sometimes no stage and no real bar crowd after 10pm. These barowners are ever more dependent on us than before for revenue behind the bar. Almost every night we face either a relieved or smiling bar owner and never have a problem getting paid. Most will admit we had a terrific night but overall things haven't been good. They usually want to book additional dates right on the spot... which tells us how most of the other bands are doing.

 

I'm hoping that 2011 is an up year for us. Out of state rooms may be less of a reality, but then, who wants to travel for the same pay as home anyway. We're booked through May 2011 and already have our key summertime dates. There is a large venue opening in Jan 2011 (we're booked for the grand opening) and it looks like it may turn the area completely on it's heels. A large 9,000 sq ft BBQ place that is directly on the waterfront. It was a very popular niteclub that closed two summers ago and the new owners have spent millions$$ renovating it. They are booking live entertainment only (no DJ's) and have a great stage setup and in house system (one of the only in the area). It has the makings of a popular destination. My only concern is having enough quality local entertainment to keep the crowd. A place like that can't afford to have poor entertainment repelling the crowd.

[badhabit]

I'm writing this as perspective... not to brag. We have a large following and a great handle on what our value is with local club owners. 2010 has been a weird year for my regional band scene, despite being a great year for us. I remember a year ago, Fall 2009, in the middle of the economic downturn seeing a drop in attendence at shows, thinking we would lose some rooms or get asked to cut our pay. Looking back, one room asked us to cut (From $1600-1300 and only book twice in 2010.. we declined) and one room closed. Out of state we lost two rooms we sporadically played in that cut back on all bands. Fair enough. When one door closes, sometimes three open. We had four new local rooms open and compete for calendar dates. At first we thought playing more local would saturate us a bit... instead it's made us white hot. For instance we played three shows last weekend, all 15 miles from each other. Broke attendence records on Wednesday (1200) and Friday night (450), and still had a respectable crowd on Saturday (more than 200 in attendence). We're also playing four local rooms that have cut all bands.... except us. We play these rooms every 8 weeks or so as an 'event' gig. These rooms no longer have a regular band night. The local band scene has certainly struggled a bit. Bands are having a hard time holding on to rooms and are being asked to drop pay to stay on the roster. Although this may sound great for us, it's not really. It doesn't help us if there isn't a thriving band scene. And just because a bar cuts bands for entertainment, but continues to hire us, it doesn't mean it's a great venue. It actually puts more pressure on us to deliver. For one there aren't any other bands to compare draw too. Secondly, it's hard to attract our following to a room hiring us for an event that isn't a regular stop for live entertainment anymore. I have friends in 'good bands' that have literally been closed out of rooms because they're compared to my band and draw. Not a fair comparison. In contrast, some pretty poor bands have remained on the roster because they are still bringing bodies; albeit family, coworkers and friends. Our rate has been pretty flat since 2008. We wouldn't think of raising prices with bar owners and although I do believe we are near the ceiling of pay in my area, I believe we may have some room to grow a little in 2011. What's a little shocking to hear is a few bands in similar style as us have all jacked their prices near ours without the consistent draw to show for it. One band from out of the area, that is easily a $500-800 band in their home market were booked in a few local rooms at $1500-$1800... and nobody came. Of course they lost those rooms after the 2nd-3rd appearance, however the clubowners are a bit butt hurt over it. Shams like that just make it easier for us to deliver at or above expectations. I still see that same drop in attendence as I saw 2-3 years ago (back then we were drawing 250+ every show, now it's somewhere around 150-300 depending on the venue or event). Most of these rooms are small to medium capacity, with no PA, sometimes no stage and no real bar crowd after 10pm. These barowners are ever more dependent on us than before for revenue behind the bar. Almost every night we face either a relieved or smiling bar owner and never have a problem getting paid. Most will admit we had a terrific night but overall things haven't been good. They usually want to book additional dates right on the spot... which tells us how most of the other bands are doing. I'm hoping that 2011 is an up year for us. Out of state rooms may be less of a reality, but then, who wants to travel for the same pay as home anyway. We're booked through May 2011 and already have our key summertime dates. There is a large venue opening in Jan 2011 (we're booked for the grand opening) and it looks like it may turn the area completely on it's heels. A large 9,000 sq ft BBQ place that is directly on the waterfront. It was a very popular niteclub that closed two summers ago and the new owners have spent millions$$ renovating it. They are booking live entertainment only (no DJ's) and have a great stage setup and in house system (one of the only in the area). It has the makings of a popular destination. My only concern is having enough quality local entertainment to keep the crowd. A place like that can't afford to have poor entertainment repelling the crowd.

 

Need a guitar player ?

[jeff42]

 

My only concern is having enough quality local entertainment to keep the crowd. A place like that can't afford to have poor entertainment repelling the crowd.

 

 

There is a decent place we play on occasion that IMO is repelling the crowd with bad bands. They are hiring any band that wants to come in. They are probebly only paying them the door but I feel this is having an affect on the other more established bands.

[Dancebass]

This is common place for original bands obviously. We get a guarantee every now and then for out of town shows but it's not the norm.

 

Since the economy went into the toilet the bookers have been jacking us up in different ways. We do have a decent draw for a local. They know this and try to leverage against it all the time.

 

The attitude towards us is the exact opposite of what we need as a band! It goes like this "well they have a good draw so let's use them to open for that brand new band that SUPER COOL BOOKING asked us to book for them. SUPER COOL BOOKING has 10 big bands on their roster and we need to stay in good with them. No one knows this new band yet, but the local can cover the draw and everyone will be happy!"

 

Or "hmmm....we couldn't get any national to play here on Friday Dec 20th, that's going to be a bad night, let's call Attn Systm and ask them to cover it for us."

 

It's hard to explain exactly. It's not like any of that is outright malicious or anything. It's just that we want our current draw to grow!! We're not in this to help the bar, we're in this for growing our band! As soon as they came to the conclusion that we had a decent draw they immediately switched from giving us good dates to trying to leverage bad dates against our crowd. What the hell does that do for me????

[MikeyParent]

The only thing with playing for the door is that the bar owners love it when they are the ones coming out on top. Have *one* good night though and they quickly change their tune to set rates again. This happened to us... We played for the door at one venue with a guarantee... until we had a $800 night at the door and then he capped us...

[BlueStrat]

Door deals can be great or they can suck. I used to take my band to Oregon, a 360 mile drive, to play Friday night at the Cascade in Vancouver and Saturday at the Trail's End in Oregon City. That was when I was trying to be somebody and increase m range, so we traveled on weekends. Anyway, the first time into the Cascade, they advertised heavily and with a 7 dollar cover charge I ended up with $920+ what I got selling CDs, making the take well over 1000 for one night. Saturday night at the Trail's End was different- a 5 dollar cover, no one collecting it until the band started, and not charging locals or pool players. We barely broke 400 dollars, which was the guarantee. But 1400 plus for two nights was respectable, minus 200 for gas an 150 for a motel room. We still made $200/guy.

 

But as time went on, each trip over found a worse economy, until we were barely cracking the nut at the Cascade and had been let go at the Trail's End, making the trip pointless to go that far to play one club. The last trip I made over there cost me almost 500 dollars out of pocket to pay the gas, motel, commissions and pay my guys $100/man minimum + rooms I guaranteed them for road trips.