Guitar player making the transition to keys. Need help picking a controller.

[Sarricola_Sauce]

Here's the deal.

 

Pretty good guitar player, new to keys. Here's what I need from my rig/controller/synth.

 

 

1. Cover band sounds. Piano/organ/electric piano/ strings and horns and synth sounds for 80's and modern pop. We play rock n roll and dance music. Same stuff a lot of other working blokes are playing. 80's synth pop, disco, michael jackson, journey, coverband hits.

 

2. I think i need weighted keys. I only have a couple hundred hours logged on a keyboard and I feel like if I wanted to play piano stuff onstage I'd need the weighted keys. MAybe I don't though? Should I be able to play 'dont stop believin' on a non weighted controller if it comes down to it?

 

3. I need to be able to do lotsa splits, and save presets.

 

4. I probably need more stuff that I havent learned yet.

 

 

Here's what I have now.

 

 

Proteus 2000 sound module - I like most of the sounds and figure it could probably get me by for now with a good controller.

 

M-audio keystation pro - my bass players. 88 keys, semi weighted. It gets medium to bad reviews it seems. I've been learning my parts on it and I think i understand how to work it okay but from what I can figure out it cant really work well for live use cuz of lack of preset options. Now that I can play a bit i understand where people are saying it feels kinda ratty.

 

 

I'd be down to get a really good controller and use the proteus for sounds, or maybe get a good synth with non weighted keys and use the maudio for when I just need the wieghted keys to play.

 

 

I wanna be frugal, but i dont like bottomfeeding on equipement, at least with guitar. I'd guess I'd be willing to spend around 1000-1500 for a good synth with non-weighted keys. I see the nice workstations with the wieghted going for thousands so I'm assuming if there are any weighted workstations in the $1500 they may not be good.

 

 

Yamaha motif ???

 

Yamaha MM6 - only 700ish???

 

Yamaha M06 - 1500ish???

 

I'm at work now so I'm rambling this message just to get some ideas out.

 

What else is out there? What are the popular controllers that gigging guys are using for the music I need to play??

 

How's my price range? Too low?

 

Is it worth brining my proteus module into the rig? I like the sounds I think, but I havent compared it too much else.

 

 

I may crosspost in the keyboard forum but I figured since this related to live performance i'd post here first.

[tim_7string]

Get a weighted keys keyboard or keyboard controller if most of the songs you play involve piano. If you are doing a variety of tunes and a lot of them have quick synth lines, those weighted keys are going to feel like you're plowing through molasses.

 

It's good if you can have both. One for piano stuff (weighted for the 'feel' of a real piano) and one for all the rest (organs, synthesizers, etc.). If you only have room in the budget or onstage for one keyboard, go with a non-weighted or semi-weighted controller.

[Sarricola_Sauce]

 

Get a weighted keys keyboard or keyboard controller if most of the songs you play involve piano. If you are doing a variety of tunes and a lot of them have quick synth lines, those weighted keys are going to feel like you're plowing through molasses. It's good if you can have both. One for piano stuff (weightd for the 'feel' of a real piano) and one for all the rest (organs, synthesizers, etc.). If you only have room in the budget (or on stage) for one, go with a non-weighted controller.

 

 

I feel ya. I wouldnt say our songlist would be 'mostly piano', if anything it'd be more synth sounds, horn hits, organs, so maybe focus on a good non-wieghted workstation synth and then worst case i can always bring the big ugly maudio to control piano sounds until my chops improve?

[tim_7string]

 

I feel ya. I wouldnt say our songlist would be 'mostly piano', if anything it'd be more synth sounds, horn hits, organs, so maybe focus on a good non-wieghted workstation synth and then worst case i can always bring the big ugly maudio to control piano sounds until my chops improve?

 

 

I would definitely go this route. The Motif gets rave reviews from keyboardists on here and locally where I am, so those might be worth looking into.

[rocket888]

Definately go with weighted keys for the piano stuff. As you get better, you will expand your ability and repertoire, and most likely will end up playing a piano if not with the band, then elsewhere. Learning piano stuff on a piano-like keyboard is the thing to do.

 

I have had many beginner students who started with an unweighted keyboard, and their ability to play piano hit a plateau until they got at least a semi-weighted keyboard.

 

I think of weighted keys like a properly set-up guitar...its just the right thing for piano. (not for organ, though, and for synth stuff, horn hits, etc, you can do on either weighted or not.)

[cooterbrown]

Find a good used Motif ES8.

You get a quality weighted 88, You can set up your presets with splits and layering four sounds at once, and use the faders to bring them in and out. You can use the sequencer to write music, in a snap, as well. Plus you can get a gig of RAM for it for super cheap on eBay and sample anything you want.

You could still MIDI the semi-weighted controller into it, to do the stuff that needs a lighter touch.

[Vito Corleone]

Good suggestion for the ES8. You can even look into a "classic" Motif8. The sounds are still VERY good and the board will be $400-500 cheaper than the ES. But I'd play a couple of different boards and make sure that you REALLY want weighted keys. Weighted key boards are much heavier, take up more space on stage (because they are almost always 88 keys) and you might find it more difficult to play synth and organ parts on weighted keys than it is to play piano parts on non-weighted keys. It really is a personal preference thing And the price difference between a used non-weighted Motif6 or ES6 and a weighted Motif8 or ES8 is going to be several hundred dollars as well.

 

I have a Proteus 2000 and that's a great module. Wide variety of sounds, 128 note polyphony, and lots you can do with midi. It's been a real workhorse for me for 10 years. You might be fine with just that and a separate controller. I'm not that familiar with many controllers. The Fatar controllers get good reviews, but can cost almost as much as a good used Motif would run you. Which can, of course, also control the Proteus.

 

One problem with the Proteus (and with many modules and keyboards) is there is only one effects routing. So when you're accessing several sounds at once via midi, you have to use to same effects setting for them all, which often changes the sound completely. Just something to be aware of if you're planning on doing a bunch of splits. It's the same situation with the 'classic' Motif. If you're spliting 4 sounds across the board, you can't always use the original effects settings from the individual voices. Not sure if the ES has the same limitation.

[plepue]

If you gig a lot think about weight. Id reccomend 61 keys non-weighted. Most all pop/rock is recorded on on such boards and you will rarely, if ever need all 88 unless you are doing a lot of splits. In that case, I'd reccomend a two tiered setup. I use a 61 key triton on the bottom and a Behringer UMX-61 controller on top accessing all my sounds off the Triton. Works very well for me in a pop cover band. I have the same setup at home so when I practice or design patches, I just take a memory card from one machine to the other and my gig board stays in the case.

 

Yes, I play Don't Stop Believing every show on non-weighted keys. Video on the website.

[ggm1960]

I just bought a Casio (don't laugh) Privia PX3 and I'm pretty impressed with it. Keyboard magazine gave it a "key buy award" and Josh Charles is playing them on tour. What I like best is that even with a full size weighted keyboard the whole thing is less than 25lbs.

 

I'm not currently playing in a band but I've agreed to do a fill in keyboard gig March 4th. I'm also a guy with way more hours at guitar than keys and even though I suck I always take two keyboards, full size weighted on bottom and 61 key synth style on top. For this gig I'll almost certainly take this new Casio and, like always, have my trusty 'ole Roland XP-30 on the top tier.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

 

If you gig a lot think about weight. Id reccomend 61 keys non-weighted. Most all pop/rock is recorded on on such boards

 

 

Probably not the vast majority of piano tracks, though..

[Vito Corleone]

Playing piano parts correctly virtually requires the action of weighted keys to get the proper feel and response. You can, of course, "fake it" on a non-weighted board, but I find it's more difficult to play piano parts well on a non-weighted board because of this. IMO, you'd be better off turning off the velocity-sensitivity and play the piano parts with one attack setting, which is how a lot of modern pop songs sound like they are recorded these days anyway.

 

Having said that, I'm not bullish on the idea of suggesting an 88 key weighted controller to a beginner. Unless he plans on doing a LOT of "real" piano parts, I would recommend a lightweight controller/keyboard to start with. He can always move up to a weighted board if he feels the piano parts are suffering. But no one really 'needs' a thousand-dollar fully-weighted 88 key controller to play "Don't Stop Believin'" to rowdy drunk girls screaming the lyrics at the top of their lungs at 1:30 AM.

 

A good compromise is the semi-weighted keyboards, which aren't as heavy or cumbersome as the fully-weighted keyboards, but offer better piano action. And 76-key keyboards can be a good option too.

 

I use a Roland A-37 controller which has 76-keys which I find to be sufficient. I don't find I miss not having the 7-keys at the bottom and 5-keys at the top. I think it is technically a "synth-action" board, but it has a weightier feel than most synths I've played. I like playing piano on it, and playing organ on it is good too. I picked it up for a couple of hundred used. The limitation for the OPs purpose is that it only facilitates one split (two sounds across the board), and doesn't offer much in the way of real-time control.

 

I've never seen one of these to sample, but THIS looks pretty sweet:

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UF70CL/

[TIMKEYS]

 

Playing piano parts correctly virtually requires the action of weighted keys to get the proper feel and response. You can, of course, "fake it" on a non-weighted board, but I find it's more difficult to play piano parts well on a non-weighted board because of this. IMO, you'd be better off turning off the velocity-sensitivity and play the piano parts with one attack setting, which is how a lot of modern pop songs sound like they are recorded these days anyway. Having said that, I'm not bullish on the idea of suggesting an 88 key weighted controller to a beginner. Unless he plans on doing a LOT of "real" piano parts, I would recommend a lightweight controller/keyboard to start with. He can always move up to a weighted board if he feels the piano parts are suffering. But no one really 'needs' a thousand-dollar fully-weighted 88 key controller to play "Don't Stop Believin'" to rowdy drunk girls screaming the lyrics at the top of their lungs at 1:30 AM. A good compromise is the semi-weighted keyboards, which aren't as heavy or cumbersome as the fully-weighted keyboards, but offer better piano action. And 76-key keyboards can be a good option too. I use a Roland A-37 controller which has 76-keys which I find to be sufficient. I don't find I miss not having the 7-keys at the bottom and 5-keys at the top. I think it is technically a "synth-action" board, but it has a weightier feel than most synths I've played. I like playing piano on it, and playing organ on it is good too. I picked it up for a couple of hundred used. The limitation for the OPs purpose is that it only facilitates one split (two sounds across the board), and doesn't offer much in the way of real-time control. I've never seen one of these to sample, but THIS looks pretty sweet: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UF70CL/

 

 

 

I gotta agree ,, semi weighted is the way to go. You can pull off both organ and piano with them. One thing about this post that hasnt been delved into is that its gonna take some time to really learn to play keys. A ton of bells and whistles on a board may turn out to be overkill until the guitar player actually learns to play a keyboard. I think trying to program your way around not actually knowing how to play would be too big a temptation.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I gotta agree ,, semi weighted is the way to go. You can pull off both organ and piano with them. One thing about this post that hasnt been delved into is that its gonna take some time to really learn to play keys. A ton of bells and whistles on a board may turn out to be overkill until the guitar player actually learns to play a keyboard. I think trying to program your way around not actually knowing how to play would be too big a temptation.

 

 

Depends on the goal, though. If he really wants to be a good keyboard player then yes, get a good board with a good piano sound and sit and home and practice. But if it's purely a means-to-an-end type of situation, where the quickest solution is probably the best, then you gotta do whatever it takes. As a keyboard player, if I want to record/play a bass or drum track, I'm not going to bother to learn to play those instruments---I'm going to take advantage of the technology and just use my keyboards. If a guitar player wants/needs to play some keyboard parts in a live situation, then I say use all the bells and whistles available to make it happen quickly and sound good.

[TIMKEYS]

Yup if all you want is the shortcut ,,,prolly the way to go, but that kinda goes against my grain.

I figure if you are going to spend your money on an isntrument ,, ya prolly should learn to play it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I figure if you are going to spend your money on an isntrument ,, ya prolly should learn to play it.

 

 

Works both ways. I see guys all the time with several-thousand dollar synths that are great piano players but don't even seem to know the first thing about all the stuff that synth can do. A big workstation that serves as a sequencer, sampler, appegiator, midi controller, & syntheziser---being a good piano player is only one small part of knowing how to play that type of instrument.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Works both ways. I see guys all the time with several-thousand dollar synths that are great piano players but don't even seem to know the first thing about all the stuff that synth can do. A big workstation that serves as a sequencer, sampler, appegiator, midi controller, & syntheziser---being a good piano player is only one small part of knowing how to play that type of instrument.

 

 

 

Yup ,,, thats exactly why I went for the RD300sx ,, i wanted a players board without alot of bells and whistles I new that i was not going to use in the kind of music I play. It has a ligher action that works well for piano and organ. I am looking for a second 300sx right now for a backup. I really dont like the action of the GX models. A keyboard player needs a certain level of keyboard skills that cant be overlooked or replaced by gizmos.

[workstation M.I]

Here's the deal. Pretty good guitar player, new to keys. Here's what I need from my rig/controller/synth. 1. Cover band sounds. Piano/organ/electric piano/ strings and horns and synth sounds for 80's and modern pop. We play rock n roll and dance music. Same stuff a lot of other working blokes are playing. 80's synth pop, disco, michael jackson, journey, coverband hits. 2. I think i need weighted keys. I only have a couple hundred hours logged on a keyboard and I feel like if I wanted to play piano stuff onstage I'd need the weighted keys. MAybe I don't though? Should I be able to play 'dont stop believin' on a non weighted controller if it comes down to it? 3. I need to be able to do lotsa splits, and save presets. 4. I probably need more stuff that I havent learned yet. Here's what I have now. Proteus 2000 sound module - I like most of the sounds and figure it could probably get me by for now with a good controller. M-audio keystation pro - my bass players. 88 keys, semi weighted. It gets medium to bad reviews it seems. I've been learning my parts on it and I think i understand how to work it okay but from what I can figure out it cant really work well for live use cuz of lack of preset options. Now that I can play a bit i understand where people are saying it feels kinda ratty. I'd be down to get a really good controller and use the proteus for sounds, or maybe get a good synth with non weighted keys and use the maudio for when I just need the wieghted keys to play. I wanna be frugal, but i dont like bottomfeeding on equipement, at least with guitar. I'd guess I'd be willing to spend around 1000-1500 for a good synth with non-weighted keys. I see the nice workstations with the wieghted going for thousands so I'm assuming if there are any weighted workstations in the $1500 they may not be good. Yamaha motif ??? Yamaha MM6 - only 700ish??? Yamaha M06 - 1500ish??? I'm at work now so I'm rambling this message just to get some ideas out. What else is out there? What are the popular controllers that gigging guys are using for the music I need to play?? How's my price range? Too low? Is it worth brining my proteus module into the rig? I like the sounds I think, but I havent compared it too much else. I may crosspost in the keyboard forum but I figured since this related to live performance i'd post here first.

 

The NEW Casio WK7500.

 

Only $499.99

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WK7500

 

[KeysBear]

if I may weigh in on weighted keys vs synth action... If you've never played piano before and are coming from a guitar background go straight to synth action and get oriented with that first. The end result no matter what type of action you are using is you are triggering electronically produced sound. Weighted hammer action adds serious weight to the keyboard and even semi-weighted keys are a useless bastardization that just makes it harder to play organ or synth lines correctly. I grew up playing piano and felt lost when I first tried non weighted synth action or even sat down to play organ. Now with thirty years of playing synths and piano on non weighted action I really do think the weighted thing is all in your head. I still play the baby grand at my church every week and love every minute of it but have never enjoyed even the best hammer action synth controllers.

[sventvkg]

New to keys as in you are a beginner player, chops wise?

[Sarricola_Sauce]

 

New to keys as in you are a beginner player, chops wise?

 

 

I guess it's a chop issue.

 

I can open up a real book to a random page, pick out a jazz standard, and in about an hour i'll be able to limp along with basic shapes in the left hand and fumble the melody in my right. But yeah, I don't have very many good licks.

 

I'm a guitar player and I read well on guitar and I've been teaching music professionally for 10 years so I know my way around the keyboard i just don't have any dexterity or hand intependance, I just don't know enough tunes yet.

[sventvkg]

 

I guess it's a chop issue. I can open up a real book to a random page, pick out a jazz standard, and in about an hour i'll be able to limp along with basic shapes in the left hand and fumble the melody in my right. But yeah, I don't have very many good licks. I'm a guitar player and I read well on guitar and I've been teaching music professionally for 10 years so I know my way around the keyboard i just don't have any dexterity or hand intependance, I just don't know enough tunes yet.

 

 

 

Oh I got ya/ I would say a year of serious practice is all you need to be decent....If I were me, I would get a Nord Stage...Very cool live rig KILLER sounds..Everything you need for a gig.

[Cork Soaker]

Agree with KeysBear. Weighted action, *when gigging*, just bogs you down.