funding the arts

[badhabit]

what about the avant garde dance group? The punk rock club on Haight? Why not them too?

 

 

I think any artist can apply for a government grant to help support their idea of art. Whether they will be accepted or not is another matter. Who decides ? BTW, this is not a new idea. In the renaissance period, composers and artists were commonly supported by royalty, the church, and sponsors.

[Khem1cal]

Classical is not popular music, cut the funding.

I always wondered why our govt supports these lame orchestras instead of acts like Bob Seger, Ted Nugent, Eminem, Kid Rock, and a bunch of our other locals that people actually listen to enjoy way more than a lame classical event full of covers of {censored} people wrote 100yrs ago.

If the govt is going to support music, they should support local acts and not classical musicians imo.

[kmart]

 

However, I just don't see the benefit, direct or otherwise, to taxpayers paying for a symphony that perhaps less than 1% of the population will even see, let alone benefit from.

 

 

Is it you 'don't see' all the information discussed elsewhere in this thread about how a symphony can help attract customers to adjacent businesses, tourists, etc., impact a city indirectly via impact on parents who direct their children into music education ,etc. and on and on and on, or that you CHOOSE not to see it?

This is not made up stuff to make an argument; this is documented fact across the country, across markets, across generations/over time. Not always the case, but something like a symphony can have significant and wide-spread impact on a given market/geography far broader than just the audience that goes to see them.

 

To characterize their impact as only being for the small few that go see them in concert is to willfully ignore the rest of the big picture.

[kmart]

 

Classical is not popular music, cut the funding. I always wondered why our govt supports these lame orchestras instead of acts like Bob Seger, Ted Nugent, Eminem, Kid Rock, and a bunch of our other locals that people actually listen to enjoy way more than a lame classical event full of covers of {censored} people wrote 100yrs ago. If the govt is going to support music, they should support local acts and not classical musicians imo.

 

 

Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion no matter how ridiculously uneducated it sounds.

 

Of course, there are plenty who would say that the output of Seger, Nugent, Eminem and Kid Rock combined is far more lame and far {censored}tier than even the lamest, {censored}tiest classical music.

 

Do you think world class musicians will be busting their asses to perform Wang Dang Sweet Poontang or that Skynrd rip-off of Kid Rock's in 10 years, much less 100?

 

Something tells me they won't.

[Khem1cal]

Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion no matter how ridiculously uneducated it sounds. Of course, there are plenty who would say that the output of Seger, Nugent, Eminem and Kid Rock combined is far more lame and far {censored}tier than even the lamest, {censored}tiest classical music. Do you think world class musicians will be busting their asses to perform Wang Dang Sweet Poontang or that Skynrd rip-off of Kid Rock's in 10 years, much less 100? Something tells me they won't.

 

 

People know who those performers are and will for a long time, who's that cellist over in the 8th row? exactly....no one cares..........

[BlueStrat]

Is it you 'don't see' all the information discussed elsewhere in this thread about how a symphony can help attract customers to adjacent businesses, tourists, etc., impact a city indirectly via impact on parents who direct their children into music education ,etc. and on and on and on, or that you CHOOSE not to see it?

Don't assume that because your arguments aren't convincing, I must not have seen them. I did- and I remain unimpressed. Like I said, you want to draw crowds to local businesses, do events that draw 20 or 30 thousand people, not 200. And seriously, tourists? How many tourists go somewhere to see an orchestra? As far as parents getting their kids into music education- the key word there is parents, not taxpayers.

[Vito Corleone]

Art has never much existed or prospered without some sort of public funding to help support it. Mozart was on the payroll of the Emperor. On one hand we decry the commercialization of music and then at the same time we want to deny any support to music that can't exist except in a commercial realm? That seems rather inconsistant, to the say the least, doesn't it?

Is there a symphony ANYWHERE that would exist without some bit of public funding? Are there ANY commercial classical or jazz radio stations outside maybe the largest metropolitan markets (if even that) that prosper?

Doesn't the commercial/pop stuff ALREADY dominate our culture and music FAR too much? Do we REALLY want to take away the non-commercial influences? Do we REALLY want that to be the type of society we live in?

I understand that these are tough economic times and we gotta cut what we gotta cut. But, at the same time, I believe that in a civilized society public funding and concerns need to be at least as much about providing for the type of society we WANT to be and WISH to become as it is about simply providing the bare essentials of what we need to survive.

[Roadappledrumme]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/7772006/buffalo_philharmonic_orchestra_signs.html

 

 

Some good info here. People affiliated with major symphonies are well paid and there ARE other ways besides tax dollars that these orchestras use to stay afloat.

[Vito Corleone]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/7772006/buffalo_philharmonic_orchestra_signs.html Some good info here. People affiliated with major symphonies are well paid and there ARE other ways besides tax dollars that these orchestras use to stay afloat.

 

 

All symphonies are going to raise money through ticket sales, fundraisers and endowments. I don't think ANY are 100% publically supported. According to their website, the Buffalo Symphony gets 12% of their revenue from government grants.

 

If anything, I would suspect that is a rather high percentage as far as these community symphonies go.

http://www.bpo.org/support/annual_fund.php

[kmart]

Don't assume that because your arguments aren't convincing, I must not have seen them. I did- and I remain unimpressed. Like I said, you want to draw crowds to local businesses, do events that draw 20 or 30 thousand people, not 200. And seriously, tourists? How many tourists go somewhere to see an orchestra? As far as parents getting their kids into music education- the key word there is parents, not taxpayers .

Now you're making the argument about the scalability of the effort...which is not what's been talked about.

And I'm not assuming anything: you aren't RESPONDING to the points being made, however...

End of the day, the issue isn't about you being impressed or not:
When you raise a question, and I or other posters respond to it with information that is clearly related and that ANSWERS that question, whether or not you are convinced or impressed by it isn't the point; your question got answered.

Continue to disagree with the point/that answer? Fine, but understand that when you ignore those answers/reasoning altogether, one assumption I will make is that you're willfully choosing to not look at the big picture/all the available data.

You've made your mind up; fine.
If so, why continue to discuss?

[kmart]

And seriously, tourists? How many tourists go somewhere to see an orchestra?

 

Depends on many things, including (1) the quality of the orchestra (I live in a city with one of the top rated/reknown symphonies in the country, and you're damn skippy that a fair amount of the audience for any performance is tourists) and (2) the 'quality' of the tourists.

 

As to your keyword ('parents'), the sad but irrefutable truth is that we (the US) simply can't afford to leave our county's future up to parents alone.

If that's your POV/argument, and you feel the government should wholesale leave things like this up to parents, I guess there's nothing further for us to talk about: reality has shown that leaving anything solely on the shoulder of this county's parents is a recipe for disaster.

[wades_keys]

 

I always wondered why our govt supports these lame orchestras instead of acts like Bob Seger, Ted Nugent, Eminem, Kid Rock, and a bunch of our other locals that people actually listen to enjoy way more than a lame classical event full of covers of {censored} people wrote 100yrs ago. If the govt is going to support music, they should support local acts and not classical musicians imo.

 

This kind of talk really makes you sound like an un-educated idiot.

 

No offense, just calling it like I see it.

 

I'm thankful that people with your attitude aren't in charge of public funding.

[wades_keys]

 

People know who those performers are and will for a long time, who's that cellist over in the 8th row? exactly....no one cares..........

 

No, YOU don't care.

 

But that cellist in the 8th row has more talent in her pinky than you have in your entire body.

 

The minute you recognize the distinction between REAL musicians and people like you and me, you'll probably be a lot more respectful of the work and dedication these real, studied musicians have to their art and craft.

 

I suspect you haven't got the slightest notion of the dedication to music that even an average orch player must possess in order to get the gig.

 

If it were up to you, the public would never get a chance to experience first hand what REAL musicians can do. Pop and rock is dumbed down dog{censored} compared to this. It has its place - hell, I love rock and roll.

 

But top-tier classical and jazz cats are supposed to inspire YOU, the budding musician - they serve as a reminder of what you COULD HAVE been, if only you had gone to music school - if only you had spent the thousands of hours reading, composing, and giving recitals - think how much mastery of music YOU would possess.

 

Maybe what you need is to have a real musician sight read something for you that they've never heard before. Can you do that? Can you read and play music at the correct tempo without having heard it before? These orch players have that skill - to varying degrees of course - but they have it.

 

It's called musical literacy, bud. And these cats have it, while you don't. If you did, YOU'D be doing gigs like this yourself.

[TrickyBoy]

 

This kind of talk really makes you sound like an un-educated idiot. No offense, just calling it like I see it. I'm thankful that people with your attitude aren't in charge of public funding.

 

 

I disagree with you here Wade. The government often times throws money at community theater, providing amateur actors an auditorium to perform and money for costumes, etc. Why don't they provide the same thing for kids wanting to start rock bands?

 

I think his point was the selective nature at which public funds are doled out are dubious at best. Public schools provide money for all kinds of "school band" activities, which is great if you want to play the tuba, but not so much if you want to play guitar or piano. And personally, I find that goofy on many levels, not the least of which is guitar and piano are what I would call "life instruments". Once you learn them you often play them for life. How many 40-year olds do you know who still break out their guitar from time to time? How many do you know that break out their clarinet?

[wades_keys]

 

I disagree with you here Wade. The government often times throws money at community theater, providing amateur actors an auditorium to perform and money for costumes, etc. Why don't they provide the same thing for kids wanting to start rock bands?

 

But that's not what he said.

 

He proceeded to name a bunch of already famous acts.

 

You question why there would need to be an incentive or two for a tuba player?

 

Try and imagine a marching band without a tuba or a euphonium. It'll sound like {censored}, I promise you. And those instruments are WAY expensive. It's not about being popular or anything. I've yet to see a marching band take a piano out on the field. But I guess some are now allowing a guitar to march.

 

Everybody and their brother wants to play guitar or piano. Tuba - not so much. But you can't have a marching band without one.

[Vito Corleone]

I disagree with you here Wade. The government often times throws money at community theater, providing amateur actors an auditorium to perform and money for costumes, etc. Why don't they provide the same thing for kids wanting to start rock bands?

 

 

The commercialization of pop/rock music is more than enough to generate interest for kids. It doesn't NEED any public support to exist. Left to its own devices, virtually NO one would take up acting or classical music.

 

As much as I love me some Lady Gaga and some Led Zeppelin, I'm not sure that's ALL we want out there in our culture as "art", is it?

[TIMKEYS]

The commercialization of pop/rock music is more than enough to generate interest for kids. It doesn't NEED any public support to exist. Left to its own devices, virtually NO one would take up acting or classical music. As much as I love me some Lady Gaga and some Led Zeppelin, I'm not sure that's ALL we want out there in our culture as "art", is it?

 

 

 

True ,, gov funding for rock music is a little like gov funding to get people to drink beer.

[kmart]

How many 40-year olds do you know who still break out their guitar from time to time? How many do you know that break out their clarinet?

 

 

I know 3 who still play clarinet, but how about not looking at this with such incredibly narrow blinders and viewing the bigger picture:

1) How many 40 year olds do you know who still break out their guitar from time to time?

2) How many DIDN'T have some sort of formal school-music training on ANY instrument in the first place?

 

I can't back up any science/reporting, etc., but based on pure random conversations with bandmates (and friends in bands) over the past 25+ that I've been playing, far more players of any age in bands had some sort of school-based/non-private education/training than did not, and you'll find convincing me that there isn't a direct correlation between the two to be pretty much impossible.

[wades_keys]

 

I think his point was the selective nature at which public funds are doled out are dubious at best. Public schools provide money for all kinds of "school band" activities, which is great if you want to play the tuba, but not so much if you want to play guitar or piano. And personally, I find that goofy on many levels, not the least of which is guitar and piano are what I would call "life instruments". Once you learn them you often play them for life. How many 40-year olds do you know who still break out their guitar from time to time? How many do you know that break out their clarinet?

 

Music is music.

 

Too many people focus on the instrument, while not learning music.

 

A good music educator will help you learn MUSIC - the instrument is secondary to that goal.

 

{censored} dude, most school bands won't let you march until you've made your bones.

 

If you have {censored} tone, can't read well, can't get your parts down in a reasonable time?

 

You ain't making the marching band - you'll be in the practice room working with the teacher or you'll be put out of band altogether. And THAT right there is an experience that definitely pays dividends in any musical context - put in the work and reps and build your skill set.

 

Even if the song "sucks" - a good educator will help you - FORCE YOU - to work on fundamentals. I haven't kept up with people that were in my high school band, but I know my cousin still plays his trumpet often.

[badhabit]

I cannot comment about other city symphonies, but the SF Symphony certainly contributes to the community by more than giving concerts.

 

http://www.sfsymphony.org/community/

 

As for as tourism, yes, when folks come to SF to visit, they want to see all the city has to offer. Sure, some will just go to Pier 39, Chinatown or Haight Street, but others will prefer to see a play , go to an opera, go to the symphony or any of the various multiple things to do here. SF understands about diversity, and that it's multiple cultural residents and visitors desire more than one or two items on the menu.

[Vito Corleone]

And that's exactly why government shouldn't be involved...because YOUR priorities aren't MY priorities. The government should butt out of BOTH businesses. Justifying a missuse of public funds on one thing (the arts) by pointing a finger at another missuse of public funds isn't a very good argument IMO.

 

 

The problem with the whole "I don't want MY tax dollars paying for THAT" argument is that there really isn't much of anything that everyone agrees ISN'T a "missuse of public funds". So I've taken the attitude of looking at it as that MY tax dollars go to what I want. So the money I pay in taxes every year goes to that symphony we don't 'really' need, and somebody's else dollars go to those last 20 bombs we built that we don't 'really' need, and the money YOU contribute goes to whatever-it-is we don't 'really' need that YOU don't mind paying for.

[Vito Corleone]

I cannot comment about other city symphonies, but the SF Symphony certainly contributes to the community by more than giving concerts. http://www.sfsymphony.org/community/ As for as tourism, yes, when folks come to SF to visit, they want to see all the city has to offer. Sure, some will just go to Pier 39, Chinatown or Haight Street, but others will prefer to see a play , go to an opera, go to the symphony or any of the various multiple things to do here. SF understands about diversity, and that it's multiple cultural residents and visitors desire more than one or two items on the menu.

 

 

As a resident of Nevada, I don't spend a dime in taxes that go to San Francisco (unless you count sales taxes when I am there) but I HAVE gone to SF specifically to see the SFS AND have dropped a lot of other money in town in the process.

[MartinC]

I have to disagree-people learn classical music and play it because they love it, and that won't change no matter if an orchestra gets public funding IMO. It's interesting that posters who feel strongly about the benefits of public funding for the arts are focusing on education, which was not the point of my op. I don't understand how any musician could be against music education, but supporting professionals is an entirely different discussion. Even libertarians probably concede we need cops and firemen.........................
EDIT: I know your not implying that the less popular arts deserve funding because they are less popular, if so, my group is in line for some serious coin.

The commercialization of pop/rock music is more than enough to generate interest for kids. It doesn't NEED any public support to exist. Left to its own devices, virtually NO one would take up acting or classical music. As much as I love me some Lady Gaga and some Led Zeppelin, I'm not sure that's ALL we want out there in our culture as "art", is it?

 

[wades_keys]

The problem with the whole "I don't want MY tax dollars paying for THAT" argument is that there really isn't much of anything that everyone agrees ISN'T a "missuse of public funds". So I've taken the attitude of looking at it as that MY tax dollars go to what I want. So the money I pay in taxes every year goes to that symphony we don't 'really' need, and somebody's else dollars go to those last 20 bombs we built that we don't 'really' need, and the money YOU contribute goes to whatever-it-is we don't 'really' need that YOU don't mind paying for.

 

It's kind of sobering when you (one - LOL) realizes that it's not "your" money.

 

In fact, I'm f***g sick and tired of that line. I know people mean well. But stop calling it YOUR money.

[kmart]

As a resident of Nevada, I don't spend a dime in taxes that go to San Francisco (unless you count sales taxes when I am there) but I HAVE gone to SF specifically to see the SFS AND have dropped a lot of other money in town in the process.

 

 

Now that we've proven you exist, we can move on to Bigfoot and unicorns...