Pricing question - 4th of July outdoor pvt party

[jimiv]

I agree, as when we started doing a lot of club dates, privates started coming in and we'd take them for a bit more money than the clubs. As the privates grew, and the corporates started, prices for those gigs went up. Once a friend of the manager of a club we were playing couldn't understand why I wanted double for his wedding than what his friend told him we were playing for in the club twice a week. I explained the difference, but he still didn't get it, or simply couldn't understand why I insisted on so much more. I held the price and let the gig go. You can't let the customer run the business

 

 

This is why you don't talk money with people other than who is paying you.

 

 

I dont think a band like that could get paid that in the market I am in, I dont care what the show was like. Pitchy focals are pretty much a deal breaker for bands here. Even a hundred a man prolly would be out of the question for a band like that.

T

 

Agreed, you can't compete for privates around here (and I'm not talking about backyard parties) if your lead singer has pitchy vocals and no backgrounds.

 

Here is who I'm competing against: http://www.gigmasters.com/Cover-Band/The-Trip2/ and these guys: http://www.gigmasters.com/Live-Band/The-Kings-Of-Classic-Rock/ (they actually played a gig at a local bar here called Famous bar and grill recently, I don't know why, we won't play there anymore, but just gives you the idea of what its like out here competing for privates)

[Vito Corleone]

Here is who I'm competing against: http://www.gigmasters.com/Cover-Band/The-Trip2/ and these guys: http://www.gigmasters.com/Live-Band/The-Kings-Of-Classic-Rock/ (they actually played a gig at a local bar here called Famous bar and grill recently, I don't know why, we won't play there anymore, but just gives you the idea of what its like out here competing for privates)

 

 

When we first started to dip our toes into the private gig circuit a couple of years ago and started getting some good work through Gigmasters, we lost a good paying wedding in Salt Lake City to The Trip. When we realized that not only were bands of that caliber out there, but that they were willing to go all the way to from LA to Utah, then we'd better kick it up a notch if we didn't want to lose out on good gigs much closer to home.

 

Competition is a good thing. Keeps you on your toes and moving forward.

[TIMKEYS]

This is why you don't talk money with people other than who is paying you. T Agreed, you can't compete for privates around here (and I'm not talking about backyard parties) if your lead singer has pitchy vocals and no backgrounds. Here is who I'm competing against: http://www.gigmasters.com/Cover-Band/The-Trip2/ and these guys: http://www.gigmasters.com/Live-Band/The-Kings-Of-Classic-Rock/ (they actually played a gig at a local bar here called Famous bar and grill recently, I don't know why, we won't play there anymore, but just gives you the idea of what its like out here competing for privates)

 

 

 

You wont get a decent bar gig down here with pitchy vocals. If its a money issue they will hire a duo with great vocals.

[MartinC]

Believe me, I didn't tell the guy what we were getting at the club, the manager of the club did. Jerkoff. Bottom line, we didn't play his friend's wedding.

This is why you don't talk money with people other than who is paying you.

T

QUOTE]

[jimiv]

 

When we realized that not only were bands of that caliber out there, but that they were willing to go all the way to from LA to Utah, then we'd better kick it up a notch if we didn't want to lose out on good gigs much closer to home. Competition is a good thing. Keeps you on your toes and moving forward.

 

 

Yeah, I'm using them as a visual example (of what needs to be done on the EPK) to my band members who are currently whining about going through the machinations of shooting a video, taking pictures, etc., but they want to ditch the clubs and and go private.....that's why its taking so long to get something decent up on our website. I'm still using recordings almost 2 years old. Sheeeesh.

 

We're getting there on the videos and new recordings, but man, it is like pulling teeth with these guys.

[kmart]

Yeah, I'm using them as a visual example (of what needs to be done on the EPK) to my band members who are currently whining about going through the machinations of shooting a video, taking pictures, etc., but they want to ditch the clubs and and go private.....that's why its taking so long to get something decent up on our website. I'm still using recordings almost 2 years old. Sheeeesh. We're getting there on the videos and new recordings, but man, it is like pulling teeth with these guys.

 

 

For the past 15 months or so I've been primarily playing with a band that is less than 2 years old, and due to being less established, is still struggling to pull in even our minimum goal for a 3 set show...in fact, we're more often than not settling for substantially less.

 

We've talked with a locally-based booking agency who was kind enough to be honest and blunt with us:

Basically told us that based on the audio he heard, we're better players than a band on his roster that currently makes 4x what we want to get as a minimum, and he could easily book us into gigs that pay similar/the same (or better)...

 

But NOT UNLESS/UNTIL we up our promo materials: audio, video and photo.

We're shooting video, recording audio and getting some new photos next week.

[Vito Corleone]

Yeah, I'm using them as a visual example (of what needs to be done on the EPK) to my band members who are currently whining about going through the machinations of shooting a video, taking pictures, etc., but they want to ditch the clubs and and go private.....that's why its taking so long to get something decent up on our website. I'm still using recordings almost 2 years old. Sheeeesh. We're getting there on the videos and new recordings, but man, it is like pulling teeth with these guys.

 

 

The Trip has a great video, but at nearly 10 minutes it's too long and it seems too "produced" for me. I like that they are clearly making no effort to present it as anything other than a lip-synched video, but I leave it still wondering "OK...but what do these guys sound like LIVE?".

 

At the same time, how can you argue with much of anything a band does who is obviously as successful as they are.

 

Taking pictures and shooting videos is a boring process for guys that just want to play music, for sure. Definately not MY favorite part of the process, for sure. But it's SO necessary in the private gig circuit. You're down south, so you probably know more about what The Trip has going on than I do---I don't know how much of what they book is due to local reputation---but to the degree they are booking all those gigs off of Gigmasters or visits to their website, then it's the EPK that is selling them.

 

We've booked a LOT of gigs this year. More than I thought we would, to be honest. And 95% of them are from people who had never heard us, or of us, before. It's ALL been due to the EPK. I have zero doubt whatsoever that were everything else about the band and the EPK the same, except we had no video, only a couple of audio clips, no live-crowd pics, and our band photo was the 5 of us in jeans and t shirts leaning against a grafittied wall, we'd be lucky to have any dates booked at all.

[jimiv]

I've been watching you guys evolve over the time I've been on this board and I can say that we are probably where you guys were when you changed you're name from 5 o'clock Charlie and started polishing your EPK. I know it is going to be a hard slog just doing privates and it was a tough decision to stop taking it in the rear doing clubs, but I am hopeful that by this time next year our EPK will be pulling some big fish in like you guys are doing now.

[MartinC]

A few years ago I asked my agent if he could book us more often if he had video. He said "you are four guys in your fifties who play sitting down. I'm not selling your looks, I'm selling your artistry. Forget the video, but I'd like a nice picutre" Saved me a ton of trouble. YMMV.

For the past 15 months or so I've been primarily playing with a band that is less than 2 years old, and due to being less established, is still struggling to pull in even our minimum goal for a 3 set show...in fact, we're more often than not settling for substantially less. We've talked with a locally-based booking agency who was kind enough to be honest and blunt with us: Basically told us that based on the audio he heard, we're better players than a band on his roster that currently makes 4x what we want to get as a minimum, and he could easily book us into gigs that pay similar/the same (or better)... But NOT UNLESS/UNTIL we up our promo materials: audio, video and photo. We're shooting video, recording audio and getting some new photos next week.

 

[kmart]

Well sure, it's going to be different in every situation and for different types of bands, etc.
For what we want to do, and the types of bands we want to be considered among, a current-looking pro press kit is more of a necessity.

I would suspect that the vast majority of booking agents, and the vast majority of bands they book, are getting gigs less off of their artistry, and more off of their image, than you are.

[jimiv]

Yep, the age thing.....

 

I have this side project going....I don't know if it is going to work out......but anyway I found this 21 year old female singer and a late twenties lead guitar player who I am working with and plan to have them eventually front the band. Youthanize the band, I like to say (it kinda has a double meaning I spose, since it means the death of our current lead player and lead singer but lends a drastic youthful front look to the band). Anyway, the girl can sing her ass off, but she has zero stage presence, zero stage attitude and no confidence. The younger lead guitar player is definitely a keeper as he can sing lead, backups and plays very well. I just don't know how she will work out. Oh, I almost forgot, she looks great. I will post pics at some point. I just don't know how long it will take to get her stage chops going.

 

Just an interesting aside I thought to share.

[Vito Corleone]

A few years ago I asked my agent if he could book us more often if he had video. He said "you are four guys in your fifties who play sitting down. I'm not selling your looks, I'm selling your artistry. Forget the video, but I'd like a nice picutre" Saved me a ton of trouble. YMMV.

 

 

From what I understand of what you guys are doing, I can see where a video would be less necessary. Pitching ourselves the way we do: as some old guys who can still bring a "party"---then we'd be able to damn well show we CAN bring a party! For acts with a much more low-key product, a video certainly isn't as necessary, IMO.

 

Also--not this necessarily applies in your particular case---but "a few years ago" can be a big deal as well. I think videos are much more expected by clients to be part of a promo kit now than just a few years ago. And dealing with agents is different too. A good agent can get you good gigs with NO promo. We book 90% of our gigs either through Gigmasters or direct through our website (or via links from other websites we have placed ourselves on). I think a video is much more necessary when you're doing it DIY than when you rely most heavily on agencies.

[Vito Corleone]

Oh, I almost forgot, she looks great. I will post pics at some point. I just don't know how long it will take to get her stage chops going.

 

 

If she looks great and sounds great, that's 95% of it from a promo standpoint. Take some good pictures, edit the video so that she looks and sounds as good as possible, and you'll get the gigs. If she's less-than-dymanic on stage, it really isn't going to be THAT big a deal. It's different from playing clubs where you hope to bring the same crowds back night-after-night. If she just stands there looking good and sounding good while the rest of the band bring the "show", that really should be enough. As long as she doesn't do anything that looks BAD--people rarely miss what they DON'T get. I doubt anybody ever says of a band "gosh, they sure were good and the singer was hot and sang her ass off, but she just stood in one place all night and didn't really put on a show...."

 

And as she gets gigs under her belt, she'll likely improve with all of the confidence stuff.

[jimiv]

 

f she looks great and sounds great, that's 95% of it from a promo standpoint. Take some good pictures, edit the video so that she looks and sounds as good as possible, and you'll get the gigs. If she's less-than-dymanic on stage, it really isn't going to be THAT big a deal. It's different from playing clubs where you hope to bring the same crowds back night-after-night. If she just stands there looking good and sounding good while the rest of the band bring the "show", that really should be enough. As long as she doesn't do anything that looks BAD--people rarely miss what they DON'T get. I doubt anybody ever says of a band "gosh, they sure were good and the singer was hot and sang her ass off, but she just stood in one place all night and didn't really put on a show...."

 

 

Yeah, that's good advice right there. I should be more positive about it,...just impatient I guess. I do know that is the way to go for what I want to do and I also know how extremely hard it is to find a female singer who looks good and who can actually sing. So I am really hopeful that she works out.

And as she gets gigs under her belt, she'll likely improve with all of the confidence stuff.

[Vito Corleone]

I've been watching you guys evolve over the time I've been on this board and I can say that we are probably where you guys were when you changed you're name from 5 o'clock Charlie and started polishing your EPK. I know it is going to be a hard slog just doing privates and it was a tough decision to stop taking it in the rear doing clubs, but I am hopeful that by this time next year our EPK will be pulling some big fish in like you guys are doing now.

 

 

Well, thanks for following along with the journey, but the biggest lesson anyone can take from is that if WE can pull it off, ANYONE can. We got lucky to find the singer we did since we decided to go down the "female lead" route, but the other side of that is bands like The Trip and Kings of Classic Rock prove that you don't need a female, or need to be that young, or even that particularly good looking to be a top corporate band. You just gotta develop a good plan and then execute it.

 

Deciding to add a female was a bit of a gamble because we were getting a lot of gigs from people saying they liked us because we WEREN'T the typical 4-guys-with-a-chick band. My gamble was we'd lose some of THOSE gigs, but gain even more in the process. Worked for us. But had we had a more dynamic male front man or a really, really good male singer I don't know if we would have taken that risk. (I'm certainly glad we did though. She's worked out great for us.)

[Vito Corleone]

I also know how extremely hard it is to find a female singer who looks good and who can actually sing.

 

 

That's really true. When I was working on our video I spent a long time looking at videos from every band similar to ours that I could find online from all over the country. One of the things that really struck me is how average, at best, most of the girl singers in these band were. Many weren't very good singers AND didn't look all that good. (Wife of the guitarist I guess...?) I ran across very, very few that actually impressed me with their ability to sing and/or their tone. (Tone was the worst thing. It was amazing to me how many of these singers don't have, what I would call, a "professional" tone---something I'd want to record and/or hear on the radio.)

 

If you found a girl who can sing AND looks good, I'd hold on to her! The rest can all be worked on. You can't teach a person to sing well, but teaching her to have better stage presence and confidence isn't THAT big a deal.

[jimiv]

 

We got lucky to find the singer we did since we decided to go down the "female lead" route, but the other side of that is bands like The Trip and Kings of Classic Rock prove that you don't need a female, or need to be that young, or even that particularly good looking to be a top corporate band. You just gotta develop a good plan and then execute it.

 

 

I have a theory that bands like The Trip are going to get less and less corporate work unless they evolve out of the classic rock era. Classic rock is dead at the clubs and is becoming less sought after in the private sector gigs as younger people become the majority of the corporate audience that you play for. That is why I am trying to move in the direction of female lead singer and KB so that we can offer the newer stuff. You won't see the Trip or Classic Rock Kings doing that, and maybe they shouldn't.....maybe there will always be enough work in that area for them just not as much as there is now.

[Vito Corleone]

I have a theory that bands like The Trip are going to get less and less corporate work unless they evolve out of the classic rock era. Classic rock is dead at the clubs and is becoming less sought after in the private sector gigs as younger people become the majority of the corporate audience that you play for. That is why I am trying to move in the direction of female lead singer and KB so that we can offer the newer stuff. You won't see the Trip or Classic Rock Kings doing that, and maybe they shouldn't.....maybe there will always be enough work in that area for them just not as much as there is now.

 

 

The Trip will need to evolve, that's for sure. Although it seems they do a lot of 90s stuff, but it remains to be seen how well 90s "guy rock" works for the corporate gigs. The Kings have a different deal going on and have managed to market themselves well as being something special. Personally, I've never heard of any of those guys, so I don't know how legit their personal resumes even are--but it definately helps to create a niche for themselves that will likely allow them to milk classic rock a bit longer than most other bands.

[Vito Corleone]

I hope most of those band DON'T evolve! More gigs for me!

I think trying to carve out a bit of niche is important for every band. The one niche we've tried to place ourselves in is being halfway between the full-on raucus nightclub party bands like Nuts In a Blender and the traditional corporate/wedding "show" bands. There are some very good nightclub party bands around here who are always likely to be better at that stuff than we are simply because they are younger, but most are a little over-their-heads doing the corporate stuff because they aren't quite 'polished' enough.

At the other end, we recently performed very well at a corporate gig that for the last few years had been done by one the biggest, polished show bands in the area. But the rap on them from the customer is that their show was too "stiff" (even though this is a big crazy costume band.) The problem is bands like that are all still from the generation of "you guys sit out there and watch the great show we put on, but don't get TOO close. WE'RE the stars here". We're willing to let drunk girls on stage and scream in the microphones and whatnot.

So I think we're getting some of our success from working at being things a lot of the other band are not.

Our schtick when we're selling the band is always: "hey, it's YOUR party, not OURS. It's not about US. WE'RE just there to make YOUR party happen for you."

[TIMKEYS]

I have a theory that bands like The Trip are going to get less and less corporate work unless they evolve out of the classic rock era. Classic rock is dead at the clubs and is becoming less sought after in the private sector gigs as younger people become the majority of the corporate audience that you play for. That is why I am trying to move in the direction of female lead singer and KB so that we can offer the newer stuff. You won't see the Trip or Classic Rock Kings doing that, and maybe they shouldn't.....maybe there will always be enough work in that area for them just not as much as there is now.

 

 

You are prolly right but I doubt that the keys to the checkbooks have been turned over to the crowd you are talking about just yet. I doubt that the people in the rock clubs now are quite to the point in the corp word to be making those decisions just yet. there time will come though.

[Vito Corleone]

You are prolly right but I doubt that the keys to the checkbooks have been turned over to the crowd you are talking about just yet. I doubt that the people in the rock clubs now are quite to the point in the corp word to be making those decisions just yet. there time will come though.

 

 

You'd be surprised. I think one of the downfalls of getting old is we sometimes forget just HOW OLD we really are....

 

The "keys to the corporate checkbook" have been, in virtually every corporate gig I've done in the last 3 years, in the hands of a somebody under 50. Very often under 40. Usually some low-to-mid-level female who has been given the duties of hiring the band and organizing the party. They aren't looking for classic rock. They want 80s, 90s, and modern pop/dance. MAYBE some disco.

 

The last big corporate gig we did was 500-600 people--the vast majority under 40. And those over 50 bailed early and likely would have REGARDLESS of what we would have played. The "party" was a group of about 100 hardcore parties that were all well under 40.

 

The last big one before that was coordinated by a mid-40s lady whose major concern was "keep the younger people dancing. The older people are going to leave after they finish dinner anyway." That and "Play whatever the CEO wants". I met the CEO during the first break. He spent most of the night on stage singing along with us and "playing" one of our stupid blowup guitars. He MIGHT have been as old as me.

 

The next corporate gig we're doing is going to be small. About 75 people we're told. Ages 20-40.

[TIMKEYS]

You'd be surprised. I think one of the downfalls of getting old is we sometimes forget just HOW OLD we really are.... The "keys to the corporate checkbook" have been, in virtually every corporate gig I've done in the last 3 years, in the hands of a somebody under 50. Very often under 40. Usually some low-to-mid-level female who has been given the duties of hiring the band and organizing the party. They aren't looking for classic rock. They want 80s, 90s, and modern pop/dance. MAYBE some disco. The last big corporate gig we did was 500-600 people--the vast majority under 40. And those over 50 bailed early and likely would have REGARDLESS of what we would have played. The "party" was a group of about 100 hardcore parties that were all well under 40. The last big one before that was coordinated by a mid-40s lady whose major concern was "keep the younger people dancing. The older people are going to leave after they finish dinner anyway." That and "Play whatever the CEO wants". I met the CEO during the first break. He spent most of the night on stage singing along with us and "playing" one of our stupid blowup guitars. He MIGHT have been as old as me. The next corporate gig we're doing is going to be small. About 75 people we're told. Ages 20-40.

 

 

When I think of mid level people , generally they are in their 40s at least for corps of any size. I classify you guys as a variety type band. You are a safe choice for a gig like that. you play to all ages You are a good fit for a corp deal. the nuts in the blender might be a little too geared toward young kids. Prolly alot of it depends on where you are located. The person at main office who gets stuck with the corp party gig , typically is the ceo's girl friday. those gals have been around a while. They tend to work their way up right along side the upper mgmt. If its a small family corp ,, they prolly run younger, since you have alot of family in the business.

[jimiv]

The last big corporate gig we did was 500-600 people--the vast majority under 40. And those over 50 bailed early and likely would have REGARDLESS of what we would have played. The "party" was a group of about 100 hardcore parties that were all well under 40. The last big one before that was coordinated by a mid-40s lady whose major concern was "keep the younger people dancing. The older people are going to leave after they finish dinner anyway." That and "Play whatever the CEO wants". I met the CEO during the first break. He spent most of the night on stage singing along with us and "playing" one of our stupid blowup guitars. He MIGHT have been as old as me. The next corporate gig we're doing is going to be small. About 75 people we're told. Ages 20-40.

 

 

Although I have limited experience in this area, this is what I am seeing as well. Especially the part where the 50 somethings are out of there early. And those are the classic rock people..mostly.

[Vito Corleone]

When I think of mid level people , generally they are in their 40s at least for corps of any size. I classify you guys as a variety type band. You are a safe choice for a gig like that. you play to all ages You are a good fit for a corp deal. the nuts in the blender might be a little too geared toward young kids.

 

 

The mid level people are in their 40s. But the people attending the parties and, more specifically, interested in the music are usually younger. THEY are the ones who are going to go back to work on Monday and tell the mid level lady in her 40s whether they thought the party was a success or not. And the CEOs footing the bill? The only reason they even blow a bunch of money on these parties in the first place is so they can appear to be cool and show their employees a good time. So if they hear that the young staffers had a blast then they are happy. Again, like I said, the over-50s are heading home early anyway. They eat dinner, sit through the speeches, have a couple of drinks and maybe dance to two songs just to appease the wife and then they are out of there. The Rolling Stones could be playing the party and they'd probably stick to that same routine.

 

 

Yeah, we're a better fit than a lot of bands because of the variety aspect, but we're constantly under pressure to keep the material younger. WE'RE all a bunch of old {censored}s. If it was just up to US, we'd all just as soon play a bunch of easy classic rock songs with extended guitar solos and take longs breaks between sets and 30 seconds between each song and call it a night. But it's the clients who ultimately determine our songlist and the pacing of our shows.

[TIMKEYS]

The mid level people are in their 40s. But the people attending the parties and, more specifically, interested in the music are usually younger. THEY are the ones who are going to go back to work on Monday and tell the mid level lady in her 40s whether they thought the party was a success or not. And the CEOs footing the bill? The only reason they even blow a bunch of money on these parties in the first place is so they can appear to be cool and show their employees a good time. So if they hear that the young staffers had a blast then they are happy. Again, like I said, the over-50s are heading home early anyway. They eat dinner, sit through the speeches, have a couple of drinks and maybe dance to two songs just to appease the wife and then they are out of there. The Rolling Stones could be playing the party and they'd probably stick to that same routine. Yeah, we're a better fit than a lot of bands because of the variety aspect, but we're constantly under pressure to keep the material younger. WE'RE all a bunch of old {censored}s. If it was just up to US, we'd all just as soon play a bunch of easy classic rock songs with extended guitar solos and take longs breaks between sets and 30 seconds between each song and call it a night. But it's the clients who ultimately determine our songlist and the pacing of our shows.

 

 

whatever ,,, for a good corp party , you want a band that can do all kinds of stuff. New, old and inbetween. To thow a party band that is totally geared toward 20 sumthings for a corp party would be a mis match in my opinon. Kids get out of college at age 21 or 22. Most dont hit the corp world hard till they are pushing thirty. The most people are going to fall in the 35 to 45 range. upper mgmt is going to be in their late 40s to mid 50s. I know those guys ,, they were the ones I delt with ,,, I was their pilot.