The "dont want to play what everyone else is playing" Circular logic

[BlueStrat]

 

I'm not saying anybody should get rid of the bubble machines. Whatever makes your party, partay! What I am saying is, guys that force the "show" are bordering on lame. Sorry, but you know it's true. It - is - true.

 

There was a band here in the 90s and early 2000s (they still play, but not as much these days) who were in high demand and were all about schtick- they had a big box full of props and would put on shower caps and towels to play "Splish Splash", then grab hippie wigs and peace medallions to play some 60s song, and so on. Their musicianship was mediocre at best but they were one of the most popular and expensive bands around here for events, parties, street dances, etc etc. because of their "show". To me, it was all forced and phony, but lots of folks ate it up.

 

There's room for all of it, and vive la difference, I say. I am not lucky enough to possesses that "it" factor. I will never be a jump-around-wearing-cool-clothes-playing-the-latest-hits kind of guy. I never have been, but I've managed to develop a fairly good rep and following just doing what I do the best I can do it with passion and conviction. I don't have a stunning PA, no light show, no witty stage banter. I just try to play music that means something to me the best I can, and do my best to transmit what it means to me to others-covers, originals, doesn't matter. I only play songs that move me, whether they're covers or originals, popular or obscure. I don't play to draw a crowd or gain a following. Those things are important, and I don't mean to discount them, but they aren't my primary motivation. I play first and foremost for my own spiritual and emotional well being. I don't do this for a living anymore and I don't make enough money at it to play stuff I don't like. Even if I played nothing but the proven hits, it wouldn't pay enough to make a living, so it's not for me. But I do believe that conviction and good execution can draw every bit as well as a great show. Guys like Ryan Adams and Lyle Lovett can pack houses and all they do is stand there and play and tell a few stories. We all have different personalities. Ryan Adams and Lyle Lovett would look ridiculous dancing around and singing pop. Other people would look stupid not doing so.

 

We all tend to view the music business through the prism or our own experiences and biases and often tend to forget that our reality is not universal. And the truth is, we all play for different reasons. For some, drawing a crowd is the thing. For others, having dancers and creating a party atmosphere is it. For others, it's self expression; still others find a therapy in it. Most of us play for some combination of those reasons. There is no right or wrong to it. I unapologetically do what I do, for the reasons I do it. I accept who and what I am and that I won't ever be any different. It's worked for me, so far, and that's good enough for me.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Guys like Ryan Adams and Lyle Lovett can pack houses and all they do is stand there and play and tell a few stories.

 

 

Guys like Ryan Adams and Lyle Lovett play originals. They stories they tell, either through their music or otherwise, are there own. People to go to hear THEIR songs. Because THEIR songs ARE them. And vice versa.

 

Cover bands are a whole 'nother deal. We aren't defined by the songs we play nor do we define them. So we have to rely on other means to draw people in. Whether that's funny hats or dynamic personalities or stellar guitar playing or a combination of many things all varies upon the individual performer. No one is suggesting you should wear a shower cap, Pat. The songs we cover bands choose to play are simply one device at our disposal we can use to reach the audience. For many bands, it may be the ONLY device. In which case, it better be a song that, all on its own, reaches a lot of people or that band won't be able to hold an audience.

[BlueStrat]

 

Guys like Ryan Adams and Lyle Lovett play originals. They stories they tell, either through their music or otherwise, are there own. People to go to hear THEIR songs. Because THEIR songs ARE them. And vice versa. Cover bands are a whole 'nother deal. We aren't defined by the songs we play nor do we define them. So we have to rely on other means to draw people in. Whether that's funny hats or dynamic personalities or stellar guitar playing or a combination of many things all varies upon the individual performer. No one is suggesting you should wear a shower cap, Pat. The songs we cover bands choose to play are simply one device at our disposal we can use to reach the audience. For many bands, it may be the ONLY device. In which case, it better be a song that, all on its own, reaches a lot of people or that band won't be able to hold an audience.

 

 

 

I can't discuss these things with you, Dave, I feel like the point I'm making just seems to go right by you. So I'm not going to try anymore.

[drumsnbeer]

 

Guys like Ryan Adams and Lyle Lovett play originals. They stories they tell, either through their music or otherwise, are there own. People to go to hear THEIR songs. Because THEIR songs ARE them. And vice versa. Cover bands are a whole 'nother deal. We aren't defined by the songs we play nor do we define them. So we have to rely on other means to draw people in. Whether that's funny hats or dynamic personalities or stellar guitar playing or a combination of many things all varies upon the individual performer. No one is suggesting you should wear a shower cap, Pat. The songs we cover bands choose to play are simply one device at our disposal we can use to reach the audience. For many bands, it may be the ONLY device. In which case, it better be a song that, all on its own, reaches a lot of people or that band won't be able to hold an audience.

 

 

I have to disagree. If they are a blues band , a classic rock band or a dance band ( which there are numerous ones of each genre in the area ) they are all defined by their songs.

[Vito Corleone]

This whole idea that any band who plays "Brown Eyed Girl" somehow sucks or any band that chooses not to is somehow 'better' is absurd. Sure, you will on occassion perform for somebody who loves some particular song you played simply because they love THAT song and it's been 20 years since they heard it but, as TimKeys would say "you can't run a whole show on that".

 

Playing stuff you connect with and making it connect with the audience is great. Playing stuff you don't particularly connect with and STILL finding a way to make it connect with the audience is great too. It's about making that connection that's what is important. And connecting with as many people as you can who are in your audience is the name of the game.

 

Lyle Lovett plays the songs he's plays because, not only does HE connect to them (he better--he wrote them) but because they connect with as many people in his crowd as is possible. If they don't, I imagine he drops that song from the playlist regardless of how much HE may like it. One of the reasons Lyle Lovett is successful is because he knows that if he has a room with 2,000 people in it he BETTER be connecting with pretty much all of them all of the time. Or he'd be out of a job just as quickly as any cover band who believes it is a good idea to play "Jackie Wilson Said" for an empty room rather than "Brown Eyed Girl" for a packed house simply because THEY think it's a 'better' Van Morrison song.

[SeniorBlues]

Who here is suggesting playing something as obscure as "Jackie Wilson Said"? That's my era, and I'd never heard it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I have to disagree. If they are a blues band , a classic rock band or a dance band ( which there are numerous ones of each genre in the area ) they are all defined by their songs.

 

 

No, they may be defined by the genre and by their style of playing. But not by the songs. I've seen bands that have been successful in all genres. I've seen bands that have been successful playing both common and un-common songs. But I have yet to see a band that was ever successful BECAUSE they played uncommon songs.

 

"We play all the great classic rock songs that HAVEN'T been played to death by everybody else" is a common "defiining" theme I've heard MANY bands try and use over the years. I've yet to see a single band find success on that alone. They HAVE to bring something more to the table than simple "we play X, Y & Z".

 

A (what I call) "entry-level" band CAN get by on nothing more than playing certain songs with a modicum of skill and musicianship. But in that case they almost certainly HAVE to be the "standards". You start getting away from that and you have to be upping the game in other areas. Choosing lesser known tunes will not only NOT make such a band better or more appealing to the audience, but it will actually help to accentuate their weaknessess. Because now they can no longer hide behind the relative safety of a well-known tune that packed the dance floor based on the first 5 notes alone.

 

If you've got the goods to put together a stand-out cover band that has what it takes to sell lesser-known material, than by all means I applaud you and wish you great success. I'm just saying that if you haven't been in this game for 30 years, you may not fully understand what you're getting yourself into.

 

But that's OK. Through experience is only way most of us learn most things anyway. Just saying that I've seen dozens of guys over the last few years--many on this very forum--who thought they were going to set their local market on fire (or even just find a comfortable niche for themselves) by "playing those great classic rock tunes that haven't been played to death by every other band out there right now." And I've seen every one of them crash and burn.

 

Let us know how it all works out.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I can't discuss these things with you, Dave, I feel like the point I'm making just seems to go right by you. So I'm not going to try anymore.

 

 

Pat, I view you as much more of an original artist than a cover-band guy anyway. I'm not sure that the points we're each trying to make apply to each other anyway.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Who here is suggesting playing something as obscure as "Jackie Wilson Said"? That's my era, and I'd never heard it.

 

 

Just throwing out a random VM song title as an example. Pick your own. He has several that would fit the bill.

 

But, FWIW, that's hardly an obscure tune. It's on his gazillion selling Best Of CD, is a great upbeat tune, has been covered by several artists over the years, and I still hear it on the radio once in awhile.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Pat, I view you as much more of an original artist than a cover-band guy anyway. I'm not sure that the points we're each trying to make apply to each other anyway.

 

 

Pat seems to be doing what most pro level songwriters do. Play both covers and original material.

[tlbonehead]

Just throwing out a random VM song title as an example. Pick your own. He has several that would fit the bill. But, FWIW, that's hardly an obscure tune. It's on his gazillion selling Best Of CD, is a great upbeat tune, has been covered by several artists over the years, and I still hear it on the radio once in awhile.

never heard of it and I've always been a huge fan.

[Vito Corleone]

 

You'll agree, won't you, that there's a huge list of "classic" songs from many eras that would be as familiar (or not) to a typical audience than the small subset that most bands play. They stick to the small subset because, they already know them, they suit their instrumentation, they aren't as difficult in some way as many of the others.

 

 

I think there's some of that, but I'd also put forth that there's more variety out there than most people probably realize. I agree the list is huge, and even between, say, two very similar wedding bands I doubt you'd see more than a small handful of songs that BOTH bands actually play regularly. But I agree with you about the fall-back to simplicity and that, in many ways, goes to the argument I'm making. If more bands worked harder to up their game---THAT'S the way to bands to stand out among the crowd. But most bands just want to make that cheap, easy buck and aren't going to put in the requisite work to come up with more interesting arrangements of songs.

 

 

I'm not talking about replacing hits off the all-time greatest list with obscure, non-danceable stuff. I'm talking about being willing to work up other songs were just as big in their day.

 

 

Again, that depends largely on the audience. We've discussed this before: the list of relevant material from any era decreases with time. Play for a group of 50 somethings and yes, you can go much deeper into the catalog of 70s hits. Play for a group of 30 somethings and the number of 70s hits they will know is much smaller.

 

 

 

Pick stuff in your wheelhouse. "Day Tripper" needs a backbeat which most bands don't have any more, so that's why it wouldn't work. "Sugar Pie . . . " is a much easier song.

 

 

I just picked "Day Tripper" because that was the first dancey-popular Beatles song that popped into my head. I'm guessing that song works pretty well for a lot of 60s era bands, but I really don't know. As popular as The Beatles are, they really weren't much of a dance band, so that's why I don't think a lot of their stuff gets played by even 60s bands. The Motown stuff---easier or otherwise, is more dancable.

 

Frankly, if I were putting together a band doing 60s and 70s material, I'd STILL stick to largely the "standards" but I'd work on clever arrangements as the way to make the band standout and keep things interesting for the players. The great thing about older material is that the older it gets the further away the connection to the original recording becomes. You could probably come up with all sorts of ways to jazz up the arrangement to a song like "Sugar Pie" to make it interesting and sophisticated and still keep it danceable and recognizable for the audience. But that comes back to work, effort and creativity. In my experience, most bands don't want to do that. They just want to learn something "off the record" because that's the easiest thing to do and collect the paycheck and go home. And then when they get bored they go off in search of more interesting records to ape without considering that they could do more with stuff that's already working for them.

[Vito Corleone]

 

never heard of it and I've always been a huge fan.

 

 

Really? How could anybody be anything CLOSE to a huge fan of Morrison and not know THIS song? Seems odd to me, but whatever. That "Best Of" album is probably the best selling album of his career. And "St. Dominic's Preview" is a classic. But whatever. It was just a random song title I threw out to make a point. Pick any number of other VM hits and the point is the same.

 

Posting this cuz I like the song and maybe there are others here who've never heard it before. If you guys all haven't, you should. It's a classic.

 

[video=youtube;ffCaPkqE6m8]

[tim_7string]

OT, but since when is double platinum 'failing'?

 

Hardcore fans of popular entertainers/bands will often buy anything their favorite entertainer puts out. Doesn't necessarily mean it was worth buying.

 

And if it was so successful...well, I don't recall seeing another Chris Gaines album out there, do you? Garth himself probably considered it a failure in comparison to his mega-platinum smash albums.

[Perfessor]

Play That Funky Music! They will dance...

[sbrett]

Hardcore fans of popular entertainers/bands will often buy anything their favorite entertainer puts out. Doesn't necessarily mean it was worth buying. And if it was so successful...well, I don't recall seeing another Chris Gaines album out there, do you? Garth himself probably considered it a failure in comparison to his mega-platinum smash albums.

 

I can only pray that one day my biggest failure in music goes double platinum. I'd be happy if it goes double aluminum.

[kmart]

 

I can only pray that one day my biggest failure in music goes double platinum. I'd be happy if it goes double aluminum.

 

 

It's not like selling double platinum guarantees money or fame.

 

I know several artists who sold multi-platinum and are practically unknown AND broke.

 

Multi-platinum crap is still crap at the end of the day.

[BlueStrat]

 

It's not like selling double platinum guarantees money or fame. I know several artists who sold multi-platinum and are practically unknown AND broke. Multi-platinum crap is still crap at the end of the day.

 

\nHa ha! What do Billy Ray Cyrus, Creed, James Blunt, Baha Men, Joey Lawrence, Ashlee Simpson, and Vanilla Ice all have in common?

[vanlatte]

\nHa ha! What do Billy Ray Cyrus, Creed, James Blunt, Baha Men, Joey Lawrence, Ashlee Simpson, and Vanilla Ice all have in common?

 

Besides the fact that Creed managed to come back as Alterbridge once they got rid of the dead weight otherwise known as Scott Stapp?

[sbrett]

 

\nHa ha! What do Billy Ray Cyrus, Creed, James Blunt, Baha Men, Joey Lawrence, Ashlee Simpson, and Vanilla Ice all have in common?

 

 

They don't have to work a typical day job?

[BlueStrat]

 

They don't have to work a typical day job?

 

 

If I had to be Billy Ray Cyrus and sing Achy Breaky Heart for the rest of my life, I think I'd rather scoop out septic tanks with a tablespoon. There are some things that aren't worth any amount of money.

 

 

And do I really need to list all the platinum sellers who do have day jobs today?

[TIMKEYS]

 

If I had to be Billy Ray Cyrus and sing Achy Breaky Heart for the rest of my life, I think I'd rather scoop out septic tanks with a tablespoon. There are some things that aren't worth any amount of money. And do I really need to list all the platinum sellers who do have day jobs today?

 

 

Having to sing a hit song over and over again is just the curse of success. Think of how many times Jimmy Buffet has had to sing gagaritaville. Think of how many times us poor bastards have to do it down here on the beach lol.

[sbrett]

 

And do I really need to list all the platinum sellers who do have day jobs today?

 

 

But do they HAVE to? If so there's a reason (or several), and it probably has very little to do with how many albums they sold.

 

I'm just saying I'd take a double platinum failure any day of the week.

[BlueStrat]

 

But do they HAVE to? If so there's a reason (or several), and it probably has very little to do with how many albums they sold. I'm just saying I'd take a double platinum failure any day of the week.

 

 

 

Oh, ok, I think I see what you're saying. Fair enough!

[kmart]

 

But do they HAVE to?

 

 

Yes, they HAVE to.

Selling multi-platiinum, even over several or dozens of albums in a row doesn't ensure any level of financial stability or security for the future. It doesn't necessarily mean you get a SINGLE penny, even if you're 100% behind all the content, never mind if you you're a non-song writing member of the band.

 

Hell, a good friend of my wife's sold MINIMUM gold, but usually platinum, for several albums straight between roughly '97 through '03. They were so popular at one point they were asked to and then appeared on freaking Beverly Hills 90210 of all things, had PLENTY of sales and exposure, etc. The friend is the frontman, and only original member; he has always been the primary songwriter. Trust me, with who's in his family and the pure business and music industry smarts involved, if ANYBODY is getting paid out of the deal, it's him.

 

The band is still active; they tour in bits and pieces, usually 2-3 weeks or so at a time, hitting key markets where they will sell out 500-1500 tickets each night and high volume of merch without fail. That's enough to keep the band business in the black and to allow him to continue doing music, but does not support him, his wife and two kids nor their house. He HAS to work, period. He's just lucky to be able to do so in other areas he's interested in, and sure, having a semi-known name and some residual fame as a rockstar got him gigs as a 'roving correspondent' for some sci-fi and horror cable programming over the past few years, so it's not like he's flipping burgers, but if the TV show he created/wrote hadn't been picked up by MTV this year, it's not like he'd laugh and say "Well good thing for my retirement that I sold 2 million albums in 1999!"