Members JohnMCA72 Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 I think if you have to rehearse it you won't be very successful at it. Just like music. If you rehearse it, you'll never be very good at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 Just like music. If you rehearse it, you'll never be very good at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 Just like music. If you rehearse it, you'll never be very good at it.do you memorize your improvised solos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigboy78 Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 do you memorize your improvised solos? You spend years learning which notes to improvise with and practicing the solos until they just naturally flow. Stage schtick is the same. If you're not a natural and haven't practiced/rehearsed it enough that it appears natural, don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 There is a good amount of schtick in our shows. All of it is verbal interaction with the crowd. None of it is the typical stuff you see done with toasts and games and hand out prizes. Its all personal interaction with people in the venue. Small talk stuff that evolved into humor. Edgy, witty and aimed at getting people to loosen up and have a good time. Whats crazy is that some of this stuff recycles but its typically aimed at new people so the regulars enjoy seeing how the noobes to the show react. Its not anything that you can reherese. Its more of a wind the front man up and watch him go. He says some funny {censored}. Its been interesting to hang out with a guy who has been full time musican working bar rooms and pool decks for over 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 27, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 27, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members babalugats85 Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 Being in my late 40's, I've found I have a knack for getting a reaction out of certain crowd members. Whenever a group of young, pretty women stumble into our show (likely lost), I make a bee line for them and to get them engaged. Always draws a reaction and on occassion, a civil stalking order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members steveosplace Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 You can tell a lot of big bands use some simple choreographed movements, like the way they'll move to certain positions on the stage, and other simple routines. This is all worked out ahead of time, especially big bands like AC/DC, they have to use the stage and be at the right place at the right time for various effects etc. Simple things like coordinating your positioning isnt too cheesey and looks good imo, really any kind of moving around is ok if it feels natural and you arent forcing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JailTime Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 Simple things like coordinating your positioning isnt too cheesey and looks good imo, really any kind of moving around is ok if it feels natural and you arent forcing it. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnMCA72 Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 do you memorize your improvised solos? Of course not!. Quality of performance is inversely proportional to preparation. Expressed mathematically: Q = 1/P, where Q = Quality of performance & P = Preparation (or Practice). Take the concept to an extreme, & the best possible performance is delivered by somebody who's never, ever, in their life played an instrument, or Q = 1/-? . This can easily be proven any night of the week, when somebody off stage rips all over the performance of somebody who's actually on the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 As JohnMCA72 notes, good improvisation requires a great degree of proper preparation: you don't just walk up and play ANYTHING, you have to have a solid knowledge of the foundations that the improvisation can build upon and, very often, those preparations require rehearsal. Same with a schtick. If one is very good and practiced at the basics, one might be able to "improvise" a great schtick, but to the degree it involves other people, certain elements will almost certainly have to be rehearsed. You might improvise your solo, but the song the band is playing underneath you is almost certainly rehearsed. Whether it's a song the entire band spent time working on or an old blues pattern that the musicians have essentially be "rehearsing" for decades, nothing good just "happens". Good things on stage take planning, experience and some degree of rehearsal and repetition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted March 27, 2012 Members Share Posted March 27, 2012 As JohnMCA72 notes, good improvisation requires a great degree of proper preparation: you don't just walk up and play ANYTHING, you have to have a solid knowledge of the foundations that the improvisation can build upon and, very often, those preparations require rehearsal. Same with a schtick. If one is very good and practiced at the basics, one might be able to "improvise" a great schtick, but to the degree it involves other people, certain elements will almost certainly have to be rehearsed. You might improvise your solo, but the song the band is playing underneath you is almost certainly rehearsed. Whether it's a song the entire band spent time working on or an old blues pattern that the musicians have essentially be "rehearsing" for decades, nothing good just "happens". Good things on stage take planning, experience and some degree of rehearsal and repetition.well, you obviously have to bring your back of goodies from years of playing onto the stage in order to improvise well. But after that, there are many variables that will determine where your improvising goes that particular night. Your personal mood at the moment, the mood and happenings occuring in the room, the other members playing at that particular time, etc. Something the drummer or bass player happen to do on this particular night can easily inspire something out of the blue that you have never done before and may never do again in that song. Same with the band/crowd interaction/schtick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 well, you obviously have to bring your back of goodies from years of playing onto the stage in order to improvise well. But after that, there are many variables that will determine where your improvising goes that particular night. Your personal mood at the moment, the mood and happenings occuring in the room, the other members playing at that particular time, etc. Something the drummer or bass player happen to do on this particular night can easily inspire something out of the blue that you have never done before and may never do again in that song. Same with the band/crowd interaction/schtick. Yep. Question becomes: from what perspective is the OP asking his question? If he's a bit of an "old pro" like you and I are, then it's easy to say "just get up there and do it and let it flow naturally. If you rehearse it, it's gonna come across as lame" because we've got those years of "rehearsing the basics" behind us. So much so that we probably don't even really realize what we did was "rehearsing". OTHO, if he's just starting out and wondering "how do I learn to do that sort of schtick/improvisation well?" we'd have to offer a different bit of advice, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 My last band had a really good relationship, and our banter was second-to-none. We didn't specifically rehearse it, but if something really went over well at a gig, we'd do it at a later gig. Not EVERY gig, but when it felt right. If you really know and get along with your stage-mates, it can occur very naturally, and still be worth repeating. We have discussed some improved intro stuff with next-to-no notice/warning in this new band, and it worked out pretty well. I think it has to do with the bands comfort level beyond playing the songs you know how to play, and we are all very comfortable in our own skin.. heck, last Saturday we got set up for an acoustic show thinking we were going to do our 45 minute original set when the singer got there only to find out that we were supposed to play for 2 hours straight - starting NOW... noone sweated. I know cover songs that I can play and sing and just had the bass player 'watch' and follow along. About 35 minutes into it, as we were making a rough transition from 'Breakdown' to 'All Along the Watchtower' it occurred to me that we had all looked a rough situation in the face and gave our best, and it was pretty good! Nowhere near as tight as my old band, but it was just about 'owning it', no matter what 'it' is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stratotastic Posted March 28, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 Yep. Question becomes: from what perspective is the OP asking his question? If he's a bit of an "old pro" like you and I are, then it's easy to say "just get up there and do it and let it flow naturally. If you rehearse it, it's gonna come across as lame" because we've got those years of "rehearsing the basics" behind us. So much so that we probably don't even really realize what we did was "rehearsing".OTHO, if he's just starting out and wondering "how do I learn to do that sort of schtick/improvisation well?" we'd have to offer a different bit of advice, don't you think? It was from the perspective of seeing these guys play live and totally take over the room from the instant they started and thinking to myself, "holy {censored} they're slick--wonder how they work all that stuff out." And don't go by their videos--those are completely lame compared to their live act, but if you click through you see a lot of it's choreographed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 It was from the perspective of seeing these guys play live and totally take over the room from the instant they started and thinking to myself, "holy {censored} they're slick--wonder how they work all that stuff out." And don't go by their videos--those are completely lame compared to their live act, but if you click through you see a lot of it's choreographed. Yes, I watched their videos and got the impression that their videos don't do them justice. Their "demo" video is too slick, staged and boring, and their live videos are too random. Funny that a top act like Patrice And The Show doesn't have that part of their promo more solid, but maybe they don't really need it get gigs. Going by what you say, I would guess they work a lot of stuff out. Probably stuff they work the basics out once or twice and then refine at the gigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 You can tell a lot of big bands use some simple choreographed movements, like the way they'll move to certain positions on the stage, and other simple routines. This is all worked out ahead of time, especially big bands like AC/DC, they have to use the stage and be at the right place at the right time for various effects etc. Simple things like coordinating your positioning isnt too cheesey and looks good imo, really any kind of moving around is ok if it feels natural and you arent forcing it. Bands playing concert venues - while working with complex lighting and staging - are certainly practicing this aspect of their show - and rightfully so. If I were working those sorts of stages - I would be too! However, I'm just a weekend warrior who (along with my bandmates) squeezes onto a postage stamp sized stage (or more likely, general area on the floor) - positioning one's self of stage is more about finding a place to stand so that minor movement doesn't trash somebody else's gear - or injure the bandmate standing next to you. My bandmates and I certainly won't be spending much time on choreography at rehearsal any time soon. Same thing goes with "schtick". Like most bands - we've got a number of "crowd interaction" things that our frontman pulls out of the bag as he sees fit. We don't "rehearse" these things into the show - simply because the "moment" has to be right for them to work. For us - "rehearsing" a specific piece of schtick into a specific spot in a specific song would be a disaster - simply because if the "moment" ain't right when we get to that "spot" on a gig, forcing the "schtick" would be ugly. As I said in a previous post - successful schtick is ALL about timing. The only thing we ever rehearse are spontaneous "breakdowns". Rehearsing these are really a listening exercise ... in which the frontman practices giving the band a cue ... and the rest of the band executing the breakdown at a proper spot in the song's groove. This is something that improves with rehearsal. It's also something very different than trying to rehearse a segment of "schtick" itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 We've got a new piece of schtick we're going to work out for weddings. Problem is I don't know exactly how it's going to work out and how to rehearse it yet. The idea is to bring the groomsmen up on stage while we do the song "Sexy and I Know It", but the idea is to have the girls sing it but somehow turn it around so they are singing it ABOUT the guys and working them into the bit. This is one that SOUNDS good on paper but until we try it out we can't really rehearse it and see how it will go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members steveosplace Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 Bands playing concert venues - while working with complex lighting and staging - are certainly practicing this aspect of their show - and rightfully so. If I were working those sorts of stages - I would be too! However, I'm just a weekend warrior who (along with my bandmates) squeezes onto a postage stamp sized stage (or more likely, general area on the floor) - positioning one's self of stage is more about finding a place to stand so that minor movement doesn't trash somebody else's gear - or injure the bandmate standing next to you. My bandmates and I certainly won't be spending much time on choreography at rehearsal any time soon. Same thing goes with "schtick". Like most bands - we've got a number of "crowd interaction" things that our frontman pulls out of the bag as he sees fit. We don't "rehearse" these things into the show - simply because the "moment" has to be right for them to work. For us - "rehearsing" a specific piece of schtick into a specific spot in a specific song would be a disaster - simply because if the "moment" ain't right when we get to that "spot" on a gig, forcing the "schtick" would be ugly. As I said in a previous post - successful schtick is ALL about timing. The only thing we ever rehearse are spontaneous "breakdowns". Rehearsing these are really a listening exercise ... in which the frontman practices giving the band a cue ... and the rest of the band executing the breakdown at a proper spot in the song's groove. This is something that improves with rehearsal. It's also something very different than trying to rehearse a segment of "schtick" itself. Yep, likewise for the most part. But I've also been pushing my band mates to up our show a notch by looking at it as a show from the audience side of things instead of just trying to be just perfectly technically correct while ignoring the performance aspect. Unfortunately our front(wo)man doesnt have a bag of tricks so its going to take some deliberate thought to break us out of our monotony. We've been trying to increase our "fun" onstage but I've been thinking a few synchronized movements like on some big rock riffs would look cool too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 Unfortunately our front(wo)man doesnt have a bag of tricks so its going to take some deliberate thought to break us out of our monotony. We've been trying to increase our "fun" onstage but I've been thinking a few synchronized movements like on some big rock riffs would look cool too. Don't underestimate the power of a bit of cheese. I've always been resistant to things like "synchronized movements on some big rock riffs" just because they seem so worn out and cheezy to me, but as corny as it is, we throw a couple of these into some songs and they always go over great. The bass player and I will walk out into the crowd and do a couple of synchronized moves and usually people are rushing up to try and do them along with us. Of course it all depends on your band and your audience and your gigs and all that. And I would do such things sparingly, but I think that as performers we tend to not realize that things WE think are way overdone and silly and tired aren't nearly so for the majority of our audiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vermoulian Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 The analogy of stage banter/moves etc. to guitar solos is really apt in a number of ways. Some people are great natural improvisational players, and some people, although skilled players, are just not good at that, and some people have some latent ability but need to get accustomed to playing that way. The most magical performances are often where somebody in the first category is really firing on all cylinders and some amazing stuff comes out. But if you are in the second or third category, you can do a lot better if you plan something out in advance and rehearse it, than if you just wing it anyway out of some misplaced sense of "that's what the real musicians do". That's what SOME of them do. Also, there is plenty of music (GOOD music) that is just not amenable to loose, off-the-cuff playing. You can get some great moments when you have a tight band nailing a good arrangement. Similarly, there are some people who have the proverbial "gift of gab" and can talk at length to anybody, can instinctively joke with the crowd and get a good reaction, can read a crowd and react just the right way to keep them engaged. Many good and successful band have front people who have those talents. (I suppose there is a chicken-and-egg issue as to having those talents and being good/successful.) This includes a number of the posters in this thread. But just because your band has somebody like that and you don't need to do a lot of advance planning, doesn't mean that for people in bands without a front person gifted with those talents, they should not plan things out meticulously in advance. You lose a little spontaneity, but it's better to go with something a bit canned than to flail around looking uncomfortable or telling un-funny jokes or whatever. And, the most brilliant front person in the world is only marginally useful when it comes to a choreographed stage move involving multiple people. (And in my experience, audiences EAT THAT {censored} UP.) Like anything else, various aspects of stage performance, including talking to the audience, schtick, etc., get better with practice. I think a lot of the "you're just born with it" theory comes from the fact that the people who are good at it have probably been doing it continuously their whole lives before they get on stage for the first time, so you rarely see somebody develop into a good audience-interaction person from ground zero, whereas everybody has seen (and experienced) learning a musical instrument from nothing. If you're not naturally good at it, it can only help your show to think about it and practice it. It only seems cheesy and canned until you reach a certain level of smoothness, at which point it looks a lot more like smooth, spontaneous repartee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stangconv Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 So what is the stuff you guys are doing? We are putting together a fun party band and would like some ideas to toss in some "cheese" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnMCA72 Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 Don't underestimate the power of a bit of cheese. I've always been resistant to things like "synchronized movements on some big rock riffs" just because they seem so worn out and cheezy to me, but as corny as it is, we throw a couple of these into some songs and they always go over great. The bass player and I will walk out into the crowd and do a couple of synchronized moves and usually people are rushing up to try and do them along with us. Of course it all depends on your band and your audience and your gigs and all that. And I would do such things sparingly, but I think that as performers we tend to not realize that things WE think are way overdone and silly and tired aren't nearly so for the majority of our audiences. People like cheese! There's nothing wrong with giving people what they like. Hell, they might even invite you back to do it again, & pay you more money for it! A musical performance is a multi-dimensional event. Even a low-level bar gig can have a hundred or more dimensions, easily. Those who only pay attention to 1 or 2 of the dimensions miss out (i.e. "It's all about the music"). Those who want to raise their game to a higher level need to pay attention to more of these dimensions. Those who are performing at the highest levels are there exactly because they aren't ignoring (as many) dimensions of their performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted March 28, 2012 Members Share Posted March 28, 2012 People like cheese! There's nothing wrong with giving people what they like. Hell, they might even invite you back to do it again, & pay you more money for it!A musical performance is a multi-dimensional event. Even a low-level bar gig can have a hundred or more dimensions, easily. Those who only pay attention to 1 or 2 of the dimensions miss out (i.e. "It's all about the music"). Those who want to raise their game to a higher level need to pay attention to more of these dimensions. Those who are performing at the highest levels are there exactly because they aren't ignoring (as many) dimensions of their performance. So true. And to go towards people liking a bit of cheese, I'll repeat something I've said before about doing songs like "Brown Eyed Girl" or "Mustang Sally"....as musicians who are tired of those songs and assume that the whole world must be, we forget that there are likely many people in your audience who haven't heard those songs in a long, long time. YOU might have been playing BEG every night for the last 20 years, but that girl in the corner booth---she maybe hasn't heard a band play that song live since last summer and she LOVES that song. Same with a few cheezy stage moves. It might seem horribly corny as a musician to cop a move you've seen bands do 1000 times over the years, but those people in your audience haven't been as burnt-out on that stuff. Hopefully, anyway. The only guy who might say anything negative to you about it will be that drunk dude sitting at bar who has been in that same spot every night for the last 10 years. Like you really care that much about what HE thinks anyway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 29, 2012 Members Share Posted March 29, 2012 Bands playing concert venues - while working with complex lighting and staging - are certainly practicing this aspect of their show - and rightfully so. If I were working those sorts of stages Sometimes, it occurs onstage and just becomes part of the show. My last band that played from 1999 through 2004 never practiced any stagecraft. But we had things happen and evolve- the trumpet player walked out into the crowd once on one of my songs that featured him on a long solo, and they went nuts, so in that song it became standard for him to do that from then on. Another time, during a swing tune we did, the sax player had an extended solo. In one particular venue, the bar was in the basement and the restaurant upstairs. So he would walk off stage, walk up stairs, walk through the restaurant, and re-emerge from the elevator which was near the stage, playing the whole time. Again, people went nuts and so we did it every time we played there, which was often. We had moves we all did at certain points, certain jokes we'd tell, certain segues and mashups that evolved. On slower nights, we'd play 'Stump The Keyboard Player,' etc. All of this stuff evolved into a show, but we didn't initially plan any of it and it all happened spontaneously the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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