Plugging into the house system? Or not.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Yes I understand that by asking to plug into the record output on the board, you're not asking for any adjustments on their part. Plug in, push record, you get what you get.

 

I'll chime in and add another vote for they will most likely just tell you they "can't" do it because, regardless of how simple it is, they probably aren't going to be willing to add ANYTHING extra to their work load.

And yes, unless your stage volume is very low and/or the FOH volume is very loud, the mix straight-out-of-the-board is likely to be atrocious. I've got a really nice collection of old 'through-the-board' tapes that are essentially nothing more than vocals and kick drum.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

I'll chime in and add another vote for they will most likely just tell you they "can't" do it because, regardless of how simple it is, they probably aren't going to be willing to add ANYTHING extra to their work load.

And yes, unless your stage volume is very low and/or the FOH volume is very loud, the mix straight-out-of-the-board is likely to be atrocious. I've got a really nice collection of old 'through-the-board' tapes that are essentially nothing more than vocals and kick drum.

 

The Zoom H4N has 4 track capability - two on board condenser mics and two line. I've always recorded all four. Improves the odds, but not foolproof. Based on their photo, I am assuming that FOH WILL be quite loud and include everything.

[SpaceNorman]

No disrespect intended - however, I just can't help but feel that this one is being WAY overthought. This gig is a battle of the bands scenario, eight bands, 30 minute sets, 15 minute changeovers - intended to give an agent a chance to hear the band. I've played a few of these things over the years - and there's never been alot of meaningful discussion between the sound provider and the bands involved. You show up - set up what you can off stage - rush like hell during the change overs. The sound provider's stage hands move microphones around as best they see fit. As the 15 minute changeover clock runs out there will be things you wish you could finish - but you won't have the time - the stage manager/MC will be announcing you. You get zero sound check (they'll dial the mix as best they can during the 1st song). Your actual performance time will go by in flash. You'll spend the first 10 minutes of your performance trying to shift your mindset from the mad rush of the changeover - to actually being a performer. You'll struggle with the sound (new room - which looks to be a relatively BIG room, different PA than you're used to .... hey, these guys use subs!) - it WILL sound different to you, guaranteed. About the time your ears adjust to the new environment and you start to feel like a musician - you'll be starting your last song.

You'll rush to get your stuff packed and loaded out. You'll stand around your vehicles in the parking lot - torn about whether to go back in, have a drink and listen to whoever else is playing because you're not sure about whether or not your stuff will be safe in the parking lot. On your way home - you and all your bandmates will be wondering WTF was that !!!!!.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

The Zoom H4N has 4 track capability - two on board condenser mics and two line. I've always recorded all four. Improves the odds, but not foolproof. Based on their photo, I am assuming that FOH WILL be quite loud and include everything.

 

Being able to mix live and through-the-board would be good. As far as the mix including everything--again, that just depends on the stage volume. If you have a guitarist who cranks it up, the FOH guys might not put him through the mix much at all.

[modulusman]

I have heard of soundguys making extra cash by selling recordings they make of the bands they mix. You might ask if he is recording you anyway and just buy one from him.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by SpaceNorman

No disrespect intended - however, I just can't help but feel that this one is being WAY overthought. This gig is a battle of the bands scenario, eight bands, 30 minute sets, 15 minute changeovers - intended to give an agent a chance to hear the band. I've played a few of these things over the years - and there's never been alot of meaningful discussion between the sound provider and the bands involved. You show up - set up what you can off stage - rush like hell during the change overs. The sound provider's stage hands move microphones around as best they see fit. As the 15 minute changeover clock runs out there will be things you wish you could finish - but you won't have the time - the stage manager/MC will be announcing you. You get zero sound check (they'll dial the mix as best they can during the 1st song). Your actual performance time will go by in flash. You'll spend the first 10 minutes of your performance trying to shift your mindset from the mad rush of the changeover - to actually being a performer. You'll struggle with the sound (new room - which looks to be a relatively BIG room, different PA than you're used to .... hey, these guys use subs!) - it WILL sound different to you, guaranteed. About the time your ears adjust to the new environment and you start to feel like a musician - you'll be starting your last song.

You'll rush to get your stuff packed and loaded out. You'll stand around your vehicles in the parking lot - torn about whether to go back in, have a drink and listen to whoever else is playing because you're not sure about whether or not your stuff will be safe in the parking lot. On your way home - you and all your bandmates will be wondering WTF was that !!!!!.

 

I think you've got it exactly right. Yeah, I DO tend to overthink these things, but sometimes it's just what's needed when everyone else overlooks something. We probably won't have too many choices about things, but just being able to anticipate what's next helps me to roll with it better.

The last time I did something like this, it was a mess . . . mostly the singer's fault, who freaked and didn't want to go on until she finally agreed to do it at the very last minute. We were late getting set up and were penalized for being late.

[wesg]

 

I'm reluctant to have someone who's never heard us decide where I sit in the mix. I'm way back in some songs and drive others.

 

I assume you're like me and change volumes with the volume knob on your piano for that?

If so, then sound check at the loudest level, and tell the sound man that you are sound-checking for a mix where the piano is out front -- and that you promise not to turn your piano up any louder than it is right now. That will help him set his gain properly. Then for the quiet songs, you can pull the piano back yourself. If it's too quiet at FOH he can give your fader a bit of a bump and pull it back for loud piano tunes, but chances are this will work okay without further sound-man involvement.

My piano didn't have any markings on the volume knob, so I wrote some on with magic marker to facilitate level changes. The last thing I want is to overdrive my input on the board, but I can't tell this by listening if my monitor is split off before the board.

By the way, if you are offered a mic, take it, even if you don't sing. That way you can talk to the sound man during sound check.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by wesg

I assume you're like me and change volumes with the volume knob on your piano for that?

 

Actually I use a Boss volume pedal in line. . . and a number of different voices alone or in combination. We're starting with "Dance to the Music" with a fairly prominent organ part. That should get them pretty close for the other stuff.

. . . followed by "Boogie Down", "Express Yourself", "When Something is Wrong With My Baby", Diggin' On James Brown", "Low Rider", and "Turn Your Love Around". How's that for eclectic?

[StratGuy22]

As a sound guy I multitrack record every gig. If the band wants to buy their set, it's $40, and a USB drive is included in the price. It's recorded right after the preamps, totally dry, and can be loaded into any DAW.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by wesg

....My piano didn't have any markings on the volume knob, so I wrote some on with magic marker to facilitate level changes. The last thing I want is to overdrive my input on the board, but I can't tell this by listening if my monitor is split off before the board....

 

One of the things I like about my little Samson SM10 line mixer is how I'm able to create a 2nd mix (using the MON send) - that I work with the sound guy to set the signal strength for during sound check. We spend a minute or two figuring out what the "range" or instrument outputs will be - and pay attention to the output balance of all three of my tone sources . Once we've set it - I don't touch.

My stage monitors get fed by the mixer's MAIN send. I work to make sure I've got the approriate balance between instruments in that mix during sound check as well. After that - the only thing I really need to control is my stage volume - and that's essentially a one knob show.

That couple of minutes spent tweaking first the MON send followed by the balance between my tone sources goes a long way in getting my sound right.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by StratGuy22

As a sound guy I multitrack record every gig. If the band wants to buy their set, it's $40, and a USB drive is included in the price. It's recorded right after the preamps, totally dry, and can be loaded into any DAW.

 

Very cool. How many tracks and what do you send to each track?

[Crownman]

 

Originally Posted by StratGuy22

As a sound guy I multitrack record every gig. If the band wants to buy their set, it's $40, and a USB drive is included in the price. It's recorded right after the preamps, totally dry, and can be loaded into any DAW.

 

Its a good idea to ask the band before the gig if its okay to record them. If the band is on a label and has copyrighted material you can get into some major problems. Ask me how I know, lol.

[SeniorBlues]

Well, the jury's still out on whether or not it was worthwhile. The place was nearly deserted - they were competing with Christmas and the Redskins. The guy running the board gave us a mix that was not well balanced, either FOH (based on several recordings) or on stage. (He was quite young and working with a new digital board.)

On the plus side, he not only let us run a direct line off the board to supplement the condenser mics, he also agreed to run my camera which requires a stop/restart after each song.

We only played 18 minutes, but I think there's enough material to splice together a new - and in some ways better - promo video. Give me a couple days and I'll post something.

[StratGuy22]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Very cool. How many tracks and what do you send to each track?

 

Hi, i have a StudioLive 24.4.2 so I can record up to 24 tracks at once. So it typically covers everything. I normally don't use overheads as there is always enough cymbal bleed through the other mics. It records right after the preamps, so it's a clean unmolested recording (no compressors, EQ, gates etc) It saves each track to a .wav file which is compatible with most DAW's (Pro Tools, QBase, Garageband etc) then they can remix it to their hearts content. As others have said, I don't bother making a board mix, as they can be lacking in areas, depending on the stage volumes. This weekend one guitar was louder than I like and there wasn't a lot going through FOH, so it would be really low in a board recording.

A typical band, 5 piece drums, bass, 2 guitars, and 3 vocals will usually be under 4GB in file size for a 45 minute set. I have 2 sizes of USB drives, 4GB and 8GB so either will work, depending on the file size.

 

Originally Posted by Crownman

Its a good idea to ask the band before the gig if its okay to record them. If the band is on a label and has copyrighted material you can get into some major problems. Ask me how I know, lol.

 

True dat. LOL

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Well, the jury's still out on whether or not it was worthwhile. The place was nearly deserted - they were competing with Christmas and the Redskins. The guy running the board gave us a mix that was not well balanced, either FOH (based on several recordings) or on stage. (He was quite young and working with a new digital board.)

On the plus side, he not only let us run a direct line off the board to supplement the condenser mics, he also agreed to run my camera which requires a stop/restart after each song.

We only played 18 minutes, but I think there's enough material to splice together a new - and in some ways better - promo video. Give me a couple days and I'll post something.

 

Like you said, you ended up with some new material to splice together a new promo video, so it wasn't a total wash.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by StratGuy22

Hi, i have a StudioLive 24.4.2 so I can record up to 24 tracks at once.

 

I know I'm going OT here, but given the difference in cost between 16 and 24, I'm wondering if you have found the additional 8 tracks to be worth the investment. That's $3.3K vs $2K.

[modulusman]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

I know I'm going OT here, but given the difference in cost between 16 and 24, I'm wondering if you have found the additional 8 tracks to be worth the investment. That's $3.3K vs $2K.

 

Well the 24 channel has 4 parametric EQs instead of semi parametric. It also has the ability to do 10 monitor mixes while the 16 only has 4.

[StratGuy22]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

I know I'm going OT here, but given the difference in cost between 16 and 24, I'm wondering if you have found the additional 8 tracks to be worth the investment. That's $3.3K vs $2K.

 

I went from a PowerMax16, which had 12XLR inputs. I debated between the 16.4.2 and the 24.4.2 I thought with the 16.4.2 I'd only be adding 4 more channels, and that would be the new limit. As others pointed out, there was more control with the EQ, plus 10 aux's instead of 6.

I decided that I would go with the 24, and sometimes have 8 channels or do that I wouldn't be using, vs wishing I had 2 more channels. It cost a bit more but buy once, cry once. I've got it now, and don't regret it at all. I also ended up buying a 16.0.2 for small gigs. Comedian, solo, duos, open mics etc.

[SeniorBlues]

The more I listen to clips from the session, the more I think about the benefits of a mixer that includes multi-channel recording capability.

Regarding his mix, for openers, the keys should have been louder on stage and dialed back FOH. By contrast, the drums were way too loud on stage, but seem to have been OK out front. The bass FOH was too "boomy" - too much low end, not enough mids.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJZZEGhWZPE

 

[Roy Brooks]

Don't worry about it. Show up with your keyboard(s) and keyboard amplifier if you use one. If you use an amplifier the soundman will decide whether he will mike or DI it. If you do not use a keyboard amplifier you will most likely be DIed straight into the board.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Regarding his mix, for openers, the keys should have been louder on stage and dialed back FOH. By contrast, the drums were way too loud on stage, but seem to have been OK out front. The bass FOH was too "boomy" - too much low end, not enough mids.

 

Not really too much wrong with that mix from what I can hear especially considering the situation.

As far as the FOH vs stage mix goes, how loud you are on stage is really YOUR job not his. All the FOH guy can do is mix based on what's still needed after all the stage volumes are taken into account. You gotta play loud enough to hear yourself and then he takes it from there. As far as the drums being too loud on stage goes? Well, that's largely a function of how hard a hitter your drummer is. Some guys can pull way back and keep the groove; others not so much.

Sounds good though. Some tasty organ playing, for sure

[MJastrzebski]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

The more I listen to clips from the session, the more I think about the benefits of a mixer that includes multi-channel recording capability.

 

Don't make that the primary criteria when selecting a mixing console. While ability to multitrack is a great tool you may not end up using it as much as you think.

I have Dante cards in my Yamaha LS9-32 which allow 32 tracks out to pro tools with a couple of ethernet cables. After recording the first few shows after I got the setup, I haven't recorded a show in the last year. Most of those recordings are still sitting unlistened to on a hard disk.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

All the FOH guy can do is mix based on what's still needed after all the stage volumes are taken into account.

 

We had very little time to figure out how much of everything was going to come back to us through the monitors. He spent most of his time on the tone of each drum, then sent the set back to us at an ear splitting volume. I would have preferred nothing at all, given that he was center back on a two foot riser. We should have stopped the first song immediately and asked him to correct it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

We had very little time to figure out how much of everything was going to come back to us through the monitors. He spent most of his time on the tone of each drum, then sent the set back to us at an ear splitting volume. I would have preferred nothing at all, given that he was center back on a two foot riser. We should have stopped the first song immediately and asked him to correct it.

 

Yeah, I thought you just meant the drums were loud on stage, not that they were coming back through the monitors. I've never wanted drums in the monitors. Not ever, I don't think. I can remember some bass players asking for some kick drum in their monitor on very, very big stages, but that's about it.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by MJastrzebski

Don't make that the primary criteria when selecting a mixing console. While ability to multitrack is a great tool you may not end up using it as much as you think.

I have Dante cards in my Yamaha LS9-32 which allow 32 tracks out to pro tools with a couple of ethernet cables. After recording the first few shows after I got the setup, I haven't recorded a show in the last year. Most of those recordings are still sitting unlistened to on a hard disk.

 

We're in demo making mode. I have decent video equipment, but using a balanced audio track would set these clips well apart from your typical youtube stuff. It's not studio production quality, but I don't expect we'll ever go in that direction, for a variety of reasons.

[WynnD]

 

Originally Posted by trevcda

I'm probably telling you stuff you already know but...The last thing you want to do in this situation is to have to depend on an unknown to hear anything but vocals in the monitors, and with a twelve minute throw and go change over, even that may be a crapshoot. Bring amplication for instruments. If you want to make things a bit smoother, have DI's for keyboards and bass already patched into your gear so that all you need is an XLR to their system and your good to go. Let them mic guitars, drums and vocals. Keep the monitors "vocals only" and don't try to muck them up with a bunch of instrumentation just because you can. When I say bring amps, I don't mean to cover the room, I mean as stage monitors. Keep the stage volume as you would (or at least should) when you're rehearsing so that everyone can hear vocals first and instrumentation second. Because here's the deal in a situation like this; unless they're utterly incompetent, if you can deliver a spot on stage performance because everyone is pitch perfect and can hear themselves and each other, it's really hard to screw that up out front. Conversely a train wreck on stage is a really LOUD train wreck out front.

Added: You could also advance a stage plot and bring a few copies with you the day of the show. It shows a level of professionalism on your part and would be appreciated by the crew if they're any kind of professionals themselves.

 

Amazingly good advice. One other thing, if you're usually packed in tight, continue to pack the group tight even if there is a ton of space available. You want to hear your bandmates as closely to normal as you can and if you spread out, it will be different. Then pray that the sound engineer is good. Good luck!