Why are concerts so damned loud?!?

[Mike_E_McGee]

I saw Los Lonely Boys last night. The opening band was way too loud for the room. It wasn't painful, but it was close. Full on shouting to the person next to you wasn't enough to communicate. I saw some people signing to each other, and was impressed. That's a great skill to have!

 

At the set break our ears cooled off.

 

When Los Lonely Boys came out they were louder than the opener. Much louder!!! I was in the middle of the floor. After 3 songs I had retreated to the back of the room. After about 3 more songs, I left. The playing was great, but I was damaging my hearing. That was $42 well spent...

 

I'm not normally one to wear ear plugs. I hate what they do to the sound. I normally tough it out though. I'm no wuss. I love to feel the thumping kick drum in my chest. This was above and beyond though. It was painful.

 

I've noticed local shows have been getting louder and louder the past few years. I don't like this trend. I'm going to have to get some of those expensive custom made plugs if I want to continue to enjoy live music.

 

What is driving this volume? Do the soundmen have inferiority complexes? Is it the guitarist just refusing to come down so everything comes up to his level? Are the club owners doing this? Do they have the sound cranked to painful proportions so that people will attempt to anesthetize themselves with booze?

[Craig Vecchione]

1. Deaf sound guy. The tip-off is a very high-end heavy mix, as HF sensitivity usually suffers in the hard-of hearing.

 

2. Band demands it.

 

3. Sound guy isn't deaf, and band doesn't demand it, but the sound guy spent a bundle on the system and likes to over-compensate for his small penis with a ridiculously loud show.

[tremendo]

What? Did you say something?

 

I bought several pairs of the ER-20's and also had some ER-15's molded for me. It's good to bring them along, since you never know when the volume will get way too loud. Get them now, before you wake up one day and realize you might have permanently hurt your ears.

 

I agree that some concerts, but many clubs, have been getting too loud.

[Black Frog]

I saw Los Lonely Boys last fall- awesome show! I also dislike too loud of shows.

 

I was impressed how the sound guy dialed them in so fast after they started their first song. That show was not overly loud and I was fairly close to the stage. But it was an outdoor (covered ampitheater type of arrangement) show.

 

Same sound guy? I dunno....

 

We opened for Foghat recently and they were WAY too loud. To the point of being obnoxiously loud and I don't know how people stayed there in front of the stacks.

[where02190]

Idiot engineers who think louder equals better.

 

One of my best assetts as a live engineer I'm told is my ability to mix dynamically without having to pin people to the wall. Doing studio mixing has helped that, but I've always been volume concious. I keep an spl meter right in front of me, and use it as a gauge, since as a day/show goes on, I know I cannot trust my ears.

 

I am at this very moment doing soundcheck for a theatrical performance with a very popular Barbara Streisand impersonator in Manchester NH. The comment "finally someone who can mix without killing people" was how the artists manager greeted me. A handshake, a big smile, and that's all the interaction we had...just the way I like it.

 

I can't remember the last time I was told to turn down, however I'm often asked to 'crank it up, dude" by some loney drunk....LOL!!!

[lucho_84]

 

Originally posted by where02190 I can't remember the last time I was told to turn down, however I'm often asked to 'crank it up, dude" by some loney drunk....LOL!!!

 

 

I HATE that:mad: Especially if they're drunk.

And Black Frog, you're right. I don't know how some people can stand in front of stacks all night? It has always boggled my mind how somebody would be so stupid as to stand in front of something so loud? Idiots! Maybe they don't need their hearing for whatever job/career they have? Who knows:confused:

[kevinnem]

 

Originally posted by where02190 Idiot engineers who think louder equals better. I can't remember the last time I was told to turn down, however I'm often asked to 'crank it up, dude" by some loney drunk....LOL!!!

 

 

 

Cheers! to that, .. I have a gig like thi its a jazz club, and everdy wekk the same set of drunk guys .. hey DJ turn it up man, its the bluessssssssss you got to crack that up " ...

 

grrrrrr.

[Singin' Dave]

This does seem to be a trend. Went to a concert to see Kings of Leon at the Congress Theater in Chicago, and even up in the balcony it was just crazy loud. No way you could have any conversation up there. I basically had to scream at my wife to get her attention. We left early 'cuz she just couldn't take it anymore...

 

A couple slipshod theories:

 

Sound reinforcement getting better and better thus less speakers etc. needed to generate more SPL

 

Garagebands and high gain metal are popular...and LOUD! And the kids like it that way. The bands like it too as it covers up bad playing.

 

More people who have damaged hearing. I hate those vibrating subwoofer cars that so many people drive now. How can they even think inside that boom box automobile?!

[thunderpaw]

I used to think I liked loud music. I had a similar experience oh, about twenty years ago. Went to hear REO Speedwagon, opened by Red Rider. Red Rider's house volume was perfect. Plenty of thump and articulate mids and highs. When REO came on...it became painful...fast. I liked the music, but no way I was going to put up with an assault on my future hearing...for any price.

 

Get the gear to cover the room. Let it breathe...don't push it. Mega volume may have its place in a club or at a 'rave'...it doesn't belong in a mainstream concert, imho.

 

Kim

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by where02190 Idiot engineers who think louder equals better.

 

Yup.

 

Just once... I'd like to walk up and lay that asshole out. Or better yet: hit the penis-envy dork with a 7 figure class-action lawsuit.

 

Remember 1972? And the pissed off moms who killed muscle cars?

 

Those who don't learn from history are doom to repeat it.

 

Loud is loud. Tasteful dynamics is art. That's something many of the soundorks don't get. How interesting is a 5 gal. bucket of granulated sugar?

[MrKnobs]

 

Originally posted by where02190 Idiot engineers who think louder equals better.

 

 

I guess that could be the case sometimes, but soundmen don't exist in a vacuum.

 

As you well know, there is always a person in charge and that person generally has something to say about the volume before, during, and after the show.

 

From my own experience, I'd say about 50% of the time someone else is making the call as to how loud the show is. Sometimes that produces a conflict if the person in charge is off in left field somewhere compared to what the audience wants.

 

Like you, I always have an SPL meter on the console or effects rack, but since I mostly do country shows I also have a more reliable meter that tells me if it's too loud for the majority of the audience. At clubs, I watch the dance floor and the circle of dancers will move forward or back during a number depending on how loud the mains are.

 

If it IS your call on the overall SPL, you have to look at the audience and make your best guess. You're not there to entertain yourself, you're there to keep people in the club buying drinks and hopefully going home with a good memory of the band.

 

Mixing country recording artists that's generally pretty straightforward. It's supposed to sound very much like the record, except with more dynamic range and a little more thump on the low end. High volume levels generally aren't called for, though country acts draw both young and old so you kind of have to split the difference on loudness between the two groups' preference.

 

Doing a cover band show sometimes requires threading the needle as the band might have a wide age demographic in the hall (especially in small towns) and play everything from old country standards to loud rap. Hopefully the band is smart enough to start out quiet and mellow for a good while before they run the old folks out with the heavier, louder stuff.

 

Sometimes the artist will have a very strong preference in how the band should be mixed. Usually their preferences are reasonable (even if different from your own) and must be accomodated if you don't want to lose the gig. Sometimes, though, they are insane.

 

One very well known country act whose name I best not mention has a drummer who doesn't want his kick drum miked. He's been this way for a very long time, probably since he came up from the little clubs where it wasn't strictly necessary. But once they had a few hits on the radio and started playing larger halls, I tried and failed to persuade him that a kick mike was now mandatory. I'd set one up, and he'd unplug it in short order.

 

Eventually I taped a trigger to his kick shell (back before so many country acts started using triggers) and also put the mike in the kick as before. He'd unplug the mike as usual but I'd still have the sample going. I kept the volume on it as low as I could and he hadn't figured it out by the time the tour was over. One time he even told me, "See, I told you the kick would carry OK."

 

I was glad when that gig was done, I expected to get caught and fired at any time, but damn, it's just unacceptable to have the kick completely inaudible to most of the audience. I'm pretty sure the guitar player knew what I was doing but if he did he never said anything.

 

Diplomacy is an essential part of any soundman's job.

 

Terry D.

[IsildursBane]

If we're talking about club gigs - how much of it is the soundguy and how much of it is the band? It depends on the band. I've done shows that hit 115dB at FOH w/ everything but vocals and kick drum turned off.

 

-Dan.

[milesdf]

whats the level where your heart stops again? its around 150 dbl right? it seems like some of these guys goals in life is to eventually kill someone with sound alone.

[where02190]

 

you're there to keep people in the club buying drinks and hopefully going home with a good memory of the band.

 

 

True, and the club is different from the concert stage. Club goers want it loud, and want a certain edge to it. Myself and a fellow engineer have actually done some studying of bar crowds on this. Club goers respond to the slightly painful distorted club PA sound in a good way. Take that same PA, and get it sounding hi fi good, and they don't get nearly as rowdy and into the band as when you push it a bit, not to the point of blatant distorting, but so it's hitting the console and amps pretty hard.

 

the drunk consumer effect. Maybe there should be a plugin for that. Oh wait there already is, Behringer gear...LOL!!!!!!!

 

All kidding aside, yes you do need to read your audience, aqnd often for me mixing in small clubs/bars that means in go the earplugs. Just because they want it loud doesn't mean I have to expose myself to it.

 

It's not just music, theatre is the same way. I've spoken to many a theatrical SR engineer about volume, and it's the same very time, they'd like to mix it softer, but the producer wants it that loud.

 

Sad really. Some great performances are ruined OMHO simply by volume.

[Axisplayer]

Did you say loud? I couldn't hear you anymore!

 

Did a show last Friday night that really taxed my patience to the point I was ready to quit. Smallish local club (30x60) doing a benefit for Katrina. Two bands playing and I never heard either before but wanted to do my part. I get there to a bunch of college kids hanging out along with the older regulars (biker bar....)

 

First band arives and I give them the details of the club. I tell them I have brought a fairly high quality PA but they can get over it if they play too loud. They say no problem...they aren't that loud. They bring in the gear...Bogner half stack, Marshall half stack, Eden bass rig....etc. Soundcheck is normal volume. First song is off the peg!!!! Amps are cranked WFO. They are playing everything in drop D tuning, singer is screamer, BU vocal is a rapper....geez. Never got to hear any vocal clearly.

 

Next band is same thing except three piece. I figure that will equal less volume. WRONG. Guitar player brings in a 100 watt Marshall and TWO 4x12 cabs, bass player rolls in SVT.

 

Both of the bands are 20 somethings...hope they learn with experience. By second set, even the bikers couldn't take the volume and tunes so they left and the kids stayed. One girl even wanted me to turn it up louder. as if I could have. There was nothing left in the PA but the vocals since the stage mics picked up plenty of drums...even the kick. It was like I brought a knife to a gunfight. Think The Who fronted by a Vocalmaster PA. BTW, PA should have been adequate...EAW tops, LS808 subs, 4000 watts FOH, 2000 watts monitors through 5 JBL MPro monitors....GL2200/32 and full dbx processing including 3 driveracks that were carefully setup, rung out, and system was sounding great until they started playing......

 

Thank God the next day was a Wine and Jazz festival outdoors. Even for 600 people the PA was great and music was nice and smooth with great dynamics.....

 

Sometimes I think I have outgrown r-n-r and ought to be doing country and jazz. I don't get the screaming, rapping, drop D noise played by most club bands today...I like the mellow stuff like Zep and Aerosmith...

 

Agedhorse...do you have any more membership cards for the geezer club?

[agedhorse]

Originally posted by Axisplayer Agedhorse...do you have any more membership cards for the geezer club?

 

A post like yours qualifies!

[Ear Abuser]

 

Think The Who

 

 

Still the loudest show I ever saw- 1976 tour -I seriuosly think I gave up some high end hearing forever that night.

Great show though.

[Danny (NS::U)]

I have an agreement that I sign with everyone that I absolutely, positively, will not consciously exceed 110 dB SPL A at the mix position.

 

At our venue, I have banned amplifiers from the stage. I do explain the why's and wherefores behind my position, so folks seem to understand. (So far, anyway.)

 

I'm not any kind of "big box" provider. (At the LAB I would definitely be called a "bottom feeder" and looked upon with disdain.) However, my position is that one ought to try for good sound rather than "as loud as possible...no...louder!" If people don't like my terms, then there are a lot of other providers out there. I don't like being draconian, as it's not my style, but sometimes you just have to say something when situations get out of hand.

[MrKnobs]

 

Originally posted by Danny (NS::U) I have an agreement that I sign with everyone that I absolutely, positively, will not consciously exceed 110 dB SPL A at the mix position.

 

 

Wow, that's still pretty loud.

 

I do national country acts outdoors at festivals and run between 90 - 95 dBA at the mixer, which is about 100 ft back from the (flatbed) stage.

 

Terry D.

[Danny (NS::U)]

Originally posted by MrKnobs Wow, that's still pretty loud. I do national country acts outdoors at festivals and run between 90 - 95 dBA at the mixer, which is about 100 ft back from the (flatbed) stage. Terry D.

 

That's the key. You're 100 feet back, and I'm never more than about 40-45 feet back. Small rooms, short snakes.

 

The other thing to remember is that 110 is my cap. I like things to be much quieter than that, though I did push one show to 105 when I thought it needed more umph. I was only 15 feet from the stage right stack, though.

 

Like I said, I'm a bottom feeder.

[flip333]

How often is a band too quiet?

 

A lot less often than they are too loud.

 

Has the trend for more and more power finally peaked?

 

(I am 45yo)

[coz boogie 65]

I produce monthly gigs and do a few big outdoor festivals every year. I also run or assist with the sound at these gigs. I find that throughout the day during the outdoor festivals that the overall sound increases. I know that my main sound engineer is getting tired, etc. and I have to constantly remind him to "back it off a bit". He's also blind (which is another thread all together). I think he falls under the catagory of "I have a bunch of cool equipment...so let's light it um". Now my sound engineer for my monthly gigs has about 20 years of experience and he mixes way low...sound checks are low, pre-show music is low, etc. and I think his technique better captures the sound.

Just my two cents worth.

Late,

Coz

[MrKnobs]

It's extremely important to run the music between bands fairly quiet. This is like the cracker that cleanses the palate between wine tasting, it resets the listeners' expectation of what is loud.

 

I hate to admit this, but sometimes I intentionally degrade the break music a little to make the band sound more Hi-Fi when they start.

 

Otherwise, each succeeding band will try to "one up" the last in loudness, which gets really loud really fast.

 

Terry D.

[Dave Martin]

 

Originally posted by MrKnobs Mixing country recording artists that's generally pretty straightforward. It's supposed to sound very much like the record, except with more dynamic range and a little more thump on the low end. High volume levels generally aren't called for, though country acts draw both young and old so you kind of have to split the difference on loudness between the two groups' preference.

 

 

And interestingly, the loudest concert I've ever been to was a Travis Tritt show. Even at the back of the venue, it was painfully loud. And talk to one of the Clair Bros guys (or if you work for them, you'd know) about Hank Jr. and his monitors...

[fantasticsound]

As others have alluded to, the soundman on a national, label act tour has only as much control as he's willing to quit for.

 

Management sets how loud the show is. I've worked local crew for tours I wouldn't mix no matter what the pay is. I don't mix shows in which hearing damage is a given. If a band delivers too much stage volume I'll clue them in. If they want to keep playing that loud they can do without proper sound in the house. I'm really not a jerk about this. I usually tell club acts this is what I need to provide good sound reinforcement for the crowd. You can either give me what I want and wow everyone or do it your own way.. and get what you give.

 

I'm all for making bands/artists comfortable onstage, but I've got more than enough stress in my life without dealing with people who think "me first" and "audience second".

 

I've mixed for rock, country, jazz, bluegrass, latin and other music. I aim to please the band, the crowd without anyone getting hurt. But the latter is foremost in my mind. Safety first.