PA Upgrade Help

[ned911]

We just got booked into a big time club and I'm starting to think our PA is not up to the task. The booking manager had me get with one of the other bands to find out what there PA set is.

 

Would like to know what upgrades I should make to my system to meet the needs of this club (which I'm hoping we play regularly).

 

My System:

FOH - 2 Peavey SP5's powered by PV2600

Sub - 1 Yorkville LP700

X-Over - DBX (can't remember the model but it's 2-way stereo, 3 way mono)

Vocal mics - SM58

Snare - SM57

Kick - new Audio Pile kick mic

 

Board - Carvin 1644 (FX come from board ie no outboard FX)

Monitors - 2 Carvin 722's powered by Carvin DCM2000

Feedback control - Peavey Feedback Ferret II

 

This is the other bands PA rig:

 

For PA, we use:

 

JBL SRX 2x15 +horn tops, JBL SRX 2x18 bottoms per side Four bridged qsc rmx 2450 power amps @ 2400 watts (one for each sub box, one for each set of mids) One stereo Crown K2 for the highs 1000 watt per side.

Allen and Heath 16 channel board

Alesis Quadraverb II for vocal fx, plus onboard on the allen

4 monitor mixes (2 12" monitors for lead vox, 1 15 " for each guitar, and a peavey sp2 for the drummer) The system is run by a DBX driverack that handles the crossover, EQ, compression, feedback notching, alignment delay, etc.

We have 2 condenser mic's for the guitars and run them through a tube pre-amp before the board.

Shure Beta87 on the lead vocals.

Our guitars, bass, vox, and snare are compressed and gated by DBX 266 compressor gates.

My kick and toms are not gated because I trigger them from a DDrum4 unit.

 

We typically push about 40% of the potential loudness of the system. This way, we can fill a bar with clean tight sound, and not have any clipping, overdriving, or unwanted harmonic distortion.

[J.]

How much money are you looking to spend? That's the most important question. Are there any components that you're not happy with right now? If something is definitely an underperformer in your current rig, it should be first on the list for replacement.

 

Other than that, what about some speaker upgrades? The SP5 is a decent speaker for the money (sounds good to my ears at least) but I don't know if it can hold a candle to anything from JBL's SRX series (and it shouldn't have to as it costs only a small fraction of SRX cabs). What about adding another Yorkie sub for more bottom?

[tlbonehead]

Depending on genre,about the only real need that I see is a lot more low-end capability. And a quality EQ,if you are trying to get by on the extremely limited EQ's on the board.

[ned911]

We are your basica rock cover band. Bunch of Green Day, Collective Sould, STP, Weezer, etc.

 

We are happy with everything we've got and have had no complaints about our sound but... We have never played a place this big or this important. It's one of those clubs that can move you to the next level.

 

I can definately add another LP700 if that is what is needed.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by ned911 We are your basica rock cover band. Bunch of Green Day, Collective Sould, STP, Weezer, etc. We are happy with everything we've got and have had no complaints about our sound but... We have never played a place this big or this important. It's one of those clubs that can move you to the next level. I can definately add another LP700 if that is what is needed.

Personally,I'd want three more if I was going to try and balance them to the top cabs/power. But even just one more will help a bit.

[ned911]

Would we be better off with a pair of passive 18" subs and a new power amp?

 

Local rental company has Yorkie LS800P's. If I rent 2 of these along with the SP5's would I be OK?

[Singin' Dave]

If you are happy with your sound at your other venues, renting the ls800p's for this show is absolutely the call. This will allow you to "rent" solid low end for this larger show w/ minimal $$. This show could be a one off, ya never know. I'd hate to spend money on all new subs/amp etc. and not really need them.

 

If the show goes well, perhaps you either sell you one ls700p and get one or two ls800ps, or you purchase another ls700p.

 

The rest of your rig should be fine (as long as the venue is not huge)

[ned911]

Could we get by with just another LS700 or should we get 2 LS800s for this show. I'm thinking LS800s just to be safe.

 

Also, just got venue size. It's a 250-300 people size room and usually packed on Friday/Saturday regardless of the band (we hang out there when we don't have a gig).

[abzurd]

Opportunities to "move up a level" don't come around very often so definitely don't skimp. That said, be sure A) this is one of these times and 2) you need that much "stuff".

 

How big a place are you talking and is the pay consistent with the "jump up"? We have a smallish powered PA (Nx550P's over LS700P's) and a rig similar to the other band you reference in your posting. We can get away with the small rig nearly everywhere we play, but bring out the big guns anyway in some of the larger places.

 

If this is truly a move up opportunity and not just a club looking for cheap entertainment for a night then do it right and rent. In fact consider renting the whole thing out. Sure, you're take home is lowered considerably, but you can focus on playing and not have to second guess or worry about it.

[ned911]

Its a 250-300 people venue. They have similar places in all the major cities in Texas, once you get in the door they book you at all the bars for Friday/Saturday gigs. Pay is significantly (2x) higher than our current weekend gig pay.

 

Also one of those places that instantly gives you street cred with the other high end cover band venues throughout the state.

 

We are playing an outdoor gig tonight and a 150-200 person venue tomorrow night. Figure those will give us an idea of what the current system can handle.

 

But yeh, I am considering hiring a sound engineer with PA to cover us on this first gig.

[ned911]

Wanted to bump this back up.

 

After playing the gig I'm not sure the SP5's have to umph at only 450-500 watts to get good loud sound 2/3rd of the way back.

 

Also, definately need to add a sub. Should I go with another ES/LS700P or passive?

 

The SRX line has me intrigued but so does a pair of U15's over the LS700's. Thinking about it SRX715's over LS700s would be nice and compact - but would it put out the power.

 

Next gig is 200-250 people out doors. Just ordered more drum mics from AudioPile so the kit will be fully mic's.

 

Just need some help making sub/main decisions - would be great if I could take this a step at a time.

[abzurd]

Well, it seems like you have 2 options.

 

Add, another similar sub and be able to do most gigs without a problem. Rent sound for "big gigs" until you know if it's worth investing in more.

 

or

 

Scrap all of your front house and "start over" with a much larger setup. You have to ask yourself is it worth the investment.

 

- To throw to the back of large venues you're talking about speakers with 2" exit compression horns and/or more narrow coverage patterns.

 

- With narrow coverage patterns comes the need for multiple boxes per side.

 

- You're now talking about multiple subs per side.

 

It all adds up fast. If you truly think this is what you need to do to get the bigger gigs AND you have the money to spend, then go for it. Otherwise, try it out a few times by hiring a well known sound company that has the goods. You'll pay for it for sure, but it's a small fraction of buying the gear outright and then finding out you really didn't need it. You may also find that, with the bigger paycheck, hiring out sound and not having to worry about any of it is just the ticket.

[Al Poulin]

Eventually, you may want to sell your SP5s and PV2600 and go with something self-powered. Check out Peavey's new SP5.5Ps. 130DB peak SPL - 1000 watts peak power each featuring a 15'' Black Widow woofer and 2'' titanium driver. Stand mount one of these on one LS800p per side (5000 watt system total!) and I think you've got a killer rig that will do most shows (up to 300 people or more) and have a reletively small footprint. Or just rent until you know if these bigger shows will appear regularly in your future... Just a suggestion. Al Poulin - Party-Time! DJ Services

 

http://www.peavey.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/item/116436/number/00584280/cat/105/begin/1/SP%3F+5.5P.cfm

[MarkT]

The LS800PB's are an extraordinary little box. Not much in the 40-45 and below playing field, but that doesn't sound like what you're after anyway. Two of them perfectly coupled with no cancellation (yeah, right!) will yield 140db per Yorkville's specs.

 

I've used 800's many times and they really are a very nice box.

 

FWIW, two of them have no problems keeping up with 4 EF500PB's in a hardcore/metal environment.

 

Good luck with finding what's right for you!

[madt0wn]

Has it ever occured to you to hire out a sound company for the bigger gigs? If it's so important, I would much rather have a professional mixing me from the audience perspective. In my area, the typical charge for sound and lights for a show of that size is quite affordable when considering the pay. Plus, you don't have to hump out the gear at 3am.

[ned911]

So the initial gig went well and we now have multiple dates.

 

For the initial gig we hired a sound engineer who brought a pair of wedges (so everyone would have monitor) and a power JRX sub. We got compliments from our regulars that it was the best we ever sounded. However those 2/3rd of the way back from the stage said it wasn't very loud but those in the back made it a point to tell us they really enjoyed the show because they could listen and still have a conversation without screaming. I think we need to find a balance.

 

Sound companies here (Austin) are expensive, like $500/night. Have found your better off to rent the stuff yourself and then hire a sound engineer for 10-15%, we have 2 that work with us at this time.

 

I don't have a problem replacing the entire FOH I just can't afford to do it all at once - mainly because I won't put more on the credit card than I can afford to pay off at then end of the month. Also want this next round of purchase to last for a while.

 

I spent some time analyzing the system posted in the first post. They are supplying each of the cabs at the rated program wattage but only running 40%, which is really close to the continous wattage.

 

We are headed back to one of the venues tonight to check out an 80's cover band who happen to be really HUGE at this time. I'll get the specs on their PA as well.

[abzurd]

 

Originally posted by ned911 We are headed back to one of the venues tonight to check out an 80's cover band who happen to be really HUGE at this time. I'll get the specs on their PA as well.

 

 

A very good idea. Find out what the bands that "are where you want to be" are doing. This will set the bar for your sound system.

 

Also, I would expect there to be quite the used market in Austin. If you aren't picky about exact names and models, just keep an eye open for quality stuff. Subs, in particular, are often discounted due to their size and weight. Once they are in an area, the depreciation makes it impractical to spend hundreds of dollars shipping them someplace else.

[ned911]

That is how I got the original system specs in the first post. The booking manager (who is employeed by this chain of clubs) had me contact that particular band to make sure we had enough PA.

 

The band we are checking out tonight is a venue we are booked at through October. The original system is also used at another chain of clubs that we are also booked at through October.

 

On the used front that is how I came upon the ES700P, there is a rental shop that only uses Yorkie products. Unfortunately all their used U15's are still priced at new, deep discount only comes after the 2 year warranty expires.

[drumstix]

For our larger shows in rooms like Hotel banguet halls or out doors I use a pair of U15's powered by a single 3402 run stereo over a pair of SRX718s subs. this combo sounds great and the U15's are amazing sounding. Crisp highs and the vocals wont sound better in anything else atleast in this range. I think the 715 is a great sounding box too, I have used one personally and I have only heard it in a MI store but never the less it did sound nice. One advantage is its weight somewhere around 40 pounds I believe. The U15 is rather heavy but I guess that getting in this range of speakers esp 3 ways in a wood box they all will be heavy.

 

That powered Peavey that Al mentioned sounds nice though. I like the subs alot too and again for subs there light and with castors on them they are easy to load and move around.

 

In you shoes its tough to say how I would handle it. Im always looking for ways to upgrade my stuff. I think two LS700's would be a good start but I dont know if they will have the guts to do a larger show, 4 of those might do it but do you want to move around that many boxes? The LS800's how the power and hit but they are getting big and bulkier, alittle more harder to transport what about the Art 4PRO 18" or the KV2 EX 2.2 or 2.5? From reports Ive read these subs really put out a good sound. Anyway just some idea's to think about, probably comes down to how much do you want to spend.

[ned911]

Drumstix-

 

What amp are you powering the 718S's with?

 

I'd rather spend a little more and get what I need instead of spending again and again and again.

 

All the suggestions are great. Hopefully others are gaining from this discussion too.

[drumstix]

Currently Im using a single RMX1850, bridged @ 1800w (4 ohms), mono putting 900w into each box. I have used this set up indoors as well as outdoors, a small upclose outdoor setup infront of a movie theatre with a low volume level. People walking by, just hanging out in front of the band. I did crank up the subs during the bass guitar and drum solo's just to "feel the heat" and there was plenty of thump without going into major clipping. I wouldnt mind running a lighter weight amp, I think a perfect amp would be a PLX2602, that would give you 1200w into each box bridged mono but yet weigh only 21 pounds. Others will say run more for the headroom, others will say less is better. The RMX does a decent job though, its just heavy at around 45 pounds. I have castors on the bottom of the subs, loading these subs are easy, roll up to the van, kinda grab the bottom and turn upside down into the van, unload the same way. Sound great! Hope this helps.

[IsildursBane]

 

Originally posted by drumstix The LS800's how the power and hit but they are getting big and bulkier

 

 

On a side note, anybody else have a harder time moving the LS800's than the bigger, heavier 2x18 ES1004's (or any similarly sized box)?

 

I'm finding that the 800's are so short, they're kind of awkward to roll w/o a hand cart.

 

 

 

-Dan.

[ned911]

Drum-

 

Got a pic of how those casters are mounted.

[tlbonehead]

Actually,the 800's are a fairly compact sub. I was thinking they had some sort of kick-back casters on them but its been a little while since I've been around them. If not,you could just throw a pair of pocket casters on the bottom backside. They work really well.

[drumstix]

 

Originally posted by ned911 Drum- Got a pic of how those casters are mounted.

 

 

 

Ill get a pic for you, probably will have to wait until Sunday PM, wifee has the camera in New Orleans this week.

 

The box comes with the mounts from the factory, you can buy the castors from JBL too but I bought mine outside, not cheap either.