Yamaha club series

[Craig Vecchione]

 

IThe in and out options on the P series amps are great, too. You have a choice of XLR or TRS inputs, and binding post, speakon, and 1/4" speaker outputs. This is one of the few amplifiers I could find that had 1/4" speaker outputs. I know it's probably not as good as using Speakons, but the cables sure are cheaper, and it suits me fine.

 

 

Bad idea. That amp will put out as much as 750w per channel....way more than a 1/4" jack or plug is designed to handle safely. I'll be willing to bet without even checking...this amp isn't UL listed. In Europe 1/4" jacks aren't even allowed on amps with this much power. I think the limit is 300w.

 

How much cheaper could the cable be? A pair of Speakons runs about $9.

[Al Poulin]

 

Bad idea. That amp will put out as much as 750w per channel....way more than a 1/4" jack or plug is designed to handle safely. I'll be willing to bet without even checking...this amp isn't UL listed. In Europe 1/4" jacks aren't even allowed on amps with this much power. I think the limit is 300w. How much cheaper could the cable be? A pair of Speakons runs about $9.

 

 

 

Actually, the Yamaha amps are UL listed. I remember the logo on the sticker right on top of the amp, where they also indicate, ironically I guess, power output capability. Al

[witesol]

 

One thing I need to mention is that I am aware that there are other brands that may be a better choice. Howeve for loyalty resons my client (a good friend) wants to work with a certin dealer that is only able to deliver Yamaha products. I am completly ruling out the dual 15"s. What I was trying to acomplish was geting the tops to a 4ohm load and I think putting two of the single 12"s on each side of a P5000S would do nicely. So the system would be. SW218V SW218V Powered by a P7000S S112V S112V S112V S112V Powered by a P5000S What ya all think of that? Also this is to be put into a room of about 40' x 60' 15' celling with a recesed stage thats about 2' high 30' x 15'. lots of wood and a bit on the reflective side. what would be the best way to stack all this up?

 

I like the dual S112V tops. I think that's a good way to go. What I'm wondering is whether you need all that sub in such a small room. Of course you can always turn something down but that's a pretty small room, a church no less. 4 18" speakers...Hmm. Is this church really rocking? LOud??without knowing the answer and seeing the room I'd almost suggest 4 S115V speakers full range off a P7000 and be done with it. You can run plenty of kick and bass in that size room. I regularly run such a system and it works fine.

[agedhorse]

The (regulatory) problem with 1/4" outputs is the fact that in bridge mode, a 1/4" output's shell would be hot. IF there are 1/4" outputs, they are not useable as a bridged output in bridge mode. CE's LVD will not allow it, as well as UL and CSA, since the shell voltage would be too high.

[witesol]

I think the Yamaha has a fairly foolproof way of keeping users from getting into trouble; There's a screwed on cover over the Binding posts, leaving the 1/4" and speakons only. If you bridge you'd have to make an appropriate custom cable or remove the cover. So, at least they make it a little harder for experimenters to mess things up. Beyond that it's all bets off

[agedhorse]

The guard is in lieu of other touchproof connections like Speak-ons

[paulwannabe]

 

Bad idea. That amp will put out as much as 750w per channel....way more than a 1/4" jack or plug is designed to handle safely. I'll be willing to bet without even checking...this amp isn't UL listed. In Europe 1/4" jacks aren't even allowed on amps with this much power. I think the limit is 300w. How much cheaper could the cable be? A pair of Speakons runs about $9.

 

 

I've searched through Musician's Friend and Music 123, and the cheapest Speakon cables I can find are about $25 per cable. And that's for the short ones. I can get two 40-50 foot speaker cables with 1/4" plugs for less than that. Where did you find a PAIR of Speakon cables for 9 bucks? I'd gladly use them if I could get them THAT cheap.

 

Oh, and Yamaha designed the output jacks with directions on the back for which configuration to use for bridged mode. I've been told before that bridging that amp could be dangerous, so I never do it anyway.

[flanc]

Buy as many of these ends as you need and make your own. You can get 14/2 SO cable at Home Depot or Lowes.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=092-050

[tlbonehead]

I've searched through Musician's Friend and Music 123, and the cheapest Speakon cables I can find are about $25 per cable. And that's for the short ones. I can get two 40-50 foot speaker cables with 1/4" plugs for less than that. Where did you find a PAIR of Speakon cables for 9 bucks? I'd gladly use them if I could get them THAT cheap. Oh, and Yamaha designed the output jacks with directions on the back for which configuration to use for bridged mode. I've been told before that bridging that amp could be dangerous, so I never do it anyway.

Are you aware that the cable itself is the same for a standard 1/4" cable vs a standard Speakon cable. Figure 40 cents a foot for cable and the ends. You can get NL2s for under $3 sometimes and NL4s for a buck or two more. That's for real ones, not cheap copies. BTW, I think the poster was referring to the ends themselves. If you have the cables(who doesn't have old speaker cables lying around) you can just throw the Speakons ends on them.

[dboomer]

Forget the 2x15 arrangement. This is a very common mistake for beginners....it's got more drivers and it's bigger, so it must be an improvement, right? Nope. Until you get up into the $1000+ price range, most are muddy, but don't deliver the bass response they're hyped for.

 

I don't know about "most" but I can tell you with ours that the dual 15's in SP's and QW's will deliver more bass output than a single 18" in the same series. The 18" cabs will go a few Hz lower but will not be as loud in the 60 - 100 Hz range. I haven't personally measured the PV series but I'll bet the same follows there too.

 

The only bad rap I have for the dual 15" cabs is it is difficult to expand them further. They are what they are. If that's enough then you're set. If you wanna add a bunch of subs to them that's not the best way to go about things. Now if you add those subs and use an aux fed sub arrangement system you could have the best of both worlds.

 

The next best thing to bi/tri amping your system is to go with an aux fed system in terms of dynamics, control and clarity (sorry Andy )

[paulwannabe]

 

Are you aware that the cable itself is the same for a standard 1/4" cable vs a standard Speakon cable. Figure 40 cents a foot for cable and the ends. You can get NL2s for under $3 sometimes and NL4s for a buck or two more. That's for real ones, not cheap copies. BTW, I think the poster was referring to the ends themselves. If you have the cables(who doesn't have old speaker cables lying around) you can just throw the Speakons ends on them.

 

 

So, if I were to buy the speakon plugs and use them with my existing cables, how would I connect them? Would there be soldering involved? If so, I have no idea which wires to solder to which parts of the plug. Whenever a cable has crapped out on me in the past, it has usually been because of wear on the plug. So, not knowing how to connect a new end, I just found another worn out cable and cut off the bad ends, and then spliced the two cables together that had the good ends.

I'm sure this is not a good method, and I'd like to know how to connect new plugs. Which wires go where, and what do I do with the shielding, if anything? Also, shouldn't I put some kind of sheath over the end of the cable to cover any exposed wire?

[DaBender]

A couple of guys that run a local music gear shop have a weekend band. They use a single Peavey SP18 sub with a Peavey 2x15 (also SP series, I believe) stacked on top of it. The bass player goes direct, and they have a very good, agressive sound.

[boomerweps]

One of the joys of Speakons is that they are SCREW TOGETHER plugs, no soldering needed, although some people do for various reasons. NL2 have 2 terminals, NL$ have 4. Either plug, you connect the +1 terminal to the darker wire (black), and -2 to the lighter wire (white). When properly assembled, there should be no exposed wire. The copper connections are for passing signal and NOT for physical strength like on 1/4" connectors. The cable sheath is grabbed by a collet (3 prong grabber) in the back of the connector housing.

 

You can buy round sheathed 2 (or 4) wire cable at electrical supply stores or home depot/Lowes. I would NOT use SO or SEO prefixed cable for speakers. The sheathing is much thicker, required for power by NEC where they MIGHT be tramped on. Get the SJ thinner sheathed cable for easier coiling and lighter hauling weight, plus it fits in the speakon easier in heavier gages. get it in 12ga and it will last you your life with PA work if nobody cuts it ;>)

 

Last, I've made many speakon cables, BUT I have also bought many via EBAY because the cable alone cost more purchased locally. Take your time, get some thick 12/13ga long speaker cables with speakons for a decent price with shipping. Then you can cut the longer cables into the lengths you hneed and add speakons to the cut ends.

 

Boomerweps

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I've searched through Musician's Friend and Music 123, and the cheapest Speakon cables I can find are about $25 per cable. And that's for the short ones. I can get two 40-50 foot speaker cables with 1/4" plugs for less than that. Where did you find a PAIR of Speakon cables for 9 bucks? I'd gladly use them if I could get them THAT cheap. Oh, and Yamaha designed the output jacks with directions on the back for which configuration to use for bridged mode. I've been told before that bridging that amp could be dangerous, so I never do it anyway.

 

 

I'm referring to the cost of a pair of Speakon connectors, not a complete cable. For 9 bucks you can upgrade a 1/4" cable to Speakon, so how much more could a Speakon reasonably be expected to cost above a 1/4" cable? It buys you much better reliability, and the freedom from danger of shorting the amp or electrocuting yourself or someone else if the speaker end is removed. Well worth the small investment. But it's your money, your rig, your decision.

 

If you can cut a cable into 3 lengths and install 6 ends, you can build three 50' cables with Speakons by buying a 150' roll of 14/2 SOOW at Home Depot, and 6 Speakons. Total cost would be under $25 per cable. For about $10 total extra, you can make them with 12/2.

[Craig Vecchione]

I don't know about "most" but I can tell you with ours that the dual 15's in SP's and QW's will deliver more bass output than a single 18" in the same series. The 18" cabs will go a few Hz lower but will not be as loud in the 60 - 100 Hz range. I haven't personally measured the PV series but I'll bet the same follows there too. The only bad rap I have for the dual 15" cabs is it is difficult to expand them further. They are what they are. If that's enough then you're set. If you wanna add a bunch of subs to them that's not the best way to go about things. Now if you add those subs and use an aux fed sub arrangement system you could have the best of both worlds. The next best thing to bi/tri amping your system is to go with an aux fed system in terms of dynamics, control and clarity (sorry Andy )

 

I disagree, Don; the cabinet design might give good lab results, but in the venue they rarely deliver satisfying bass. There's more (or better be) to a 2x15 cab than bass response. The most common problem with inexpensive 2x15+horn cabinets is that the horn can't keep up or simply sounds bad because it's pushed too hard.

[flanc]

 

I disagree, Don; the cabinet design might give good lab results, but in the venue they rarely deliver satisfying bass. There's more (or better be) to a 2x15 cab than bass response. The most common problem with inexpensive 2x15+horn cabinets is that the horn can't keep up or simply sounds bad because it's pushed too hard.

 

 

Is Don talking about a 2X15 sub as opposed to a full range cabinet with 2X15 woofers + horn? I've never heard a 2x15 (+horn) cabinet that had subwoofer like output.

[dboomer]

Well if you were to use a single 15 (or 12") with a sub ... you would still have the same HF driver and horn. So how is that different?

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Is Don talking about a 2X15 sub as opposed to a full range cabinet with 2X15 woofers + horn? I've never heard a 2x15 (+horn) cabinet that subwoofer like output.

 

 

 

I don't know...at first I thought he meant subs too, but there's no SP 2x15 sub, so I think he means the 2x15+horn. I don't count the QW in this discussion as I specifically stated an under $1000 condition in my original comments, and the QW is about $1,200. The 1K price point is where you're more likely to see true 2" horns, which are much better able to balance the overall sound with the two 15" cone drivers.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Well if you were to use a single 15 (or 12") with a sub ... you would still have the same HF driver and horn. So how is that different?

 

 

 

The difference is that the 18" is handling up to 100Hz, the 15" or 12" is handling only 100Hz to 2.5- or 3.5kHz and isn't affected by the LF interacting inside the enclosure. Better clarity in the vocal response range.

 

Additionally, for the same money a 1x12 or 1x15 is a lot more likely to have a better horn than the same-priced 2x15.

[DJ Swydez]

I've searched through Musician's Friend and Music 123, and the cheapest Speakon cables I can find are about $25 per cable. And that's for the short ones. I can get two 40-50 foot speaker cables with 1/4" plugs for less than that. Where did you find a PAIR of Speakon cables for 9 bucks? I'd gladly use them if I could get them THAT cheap.

 

Okay, if you are not into making your own cables, you can buy pre-made speakon cables for reasonable amounts. At the local GC, 14awg 25-foot speakon cables were marked at $20 or so, and the 50 foot 14awg 50-foot cables were marked at $30 or so. If you went thicker guage cables (12awg), the 25-foot cable cost $30 and the 50-foot cables cost $40. That's not that much considering what you're spending on your overall setup. Plus, if you go into your local GC and buy 4 Yamaha tops, 2 Yamaha subs, 2 Yamaha amps, and all the other equipment required for your setup, you'd be surprised what you can negotiate those GC salesmen to throw into your package for free, while still giving you a nice discount, you just have to be a good negotiator!

 

Anyway, Good Luck.

[guitarharv52]

Okay, if you are not into making your own cables, you can buy pre-made speakon cables for reasonable amounts. At the local GC, 14awg 25-foot speakon cables were marked at $20 or so, and the 50 foot 14awg 50-foot cables were marked at $30 or so. If you went thicker guage cables (12awg), the 25-foot cable cost $30 and the 50-foot cables cost $40. That's not that much considering what you're spending on your overall setup. Plus, if you go into your local GC and buy 4 Yamaha tops, 2 Yamaha subs, 2 Yamaha amps, and all the other equipment required for your setup, you'd be surprised what you can negotiate those GC salesmen to throw into your package for free, while still giving you a nice discount, you just have to be a good negotiator! Anyway, Good Luck.

 

AGREED!When they know you are not just bending their ear telling them what you want someday.When you walk in with money and you will buy if they can get you out the door for the price you want you can get better deals.

[witesol]

 

The difference is that the 18" is handling up to 100Hz, the 15" or 12" is handling only 100Hz to 2.5- or 3.5kHz and isn't affected by the LF interacting inside the enclosure. Better clarity in the vocal response range. Additionally, for the same money a 1x12 or 1x15 is a lot more likely to have a better horn than the same-priced 2x15.

 

I believe in the Yamaha (and JBL too?) there is a high pass on the bottom 15. So a sub with that makes the bottom 15 sort of redundant. Same horn though as the regular S115V. I've always found better results with more horns(along with an additional bottom speaker)arrayed rather than simply more 12s or 15s and one horn.

[dboomer]

 

Additionally, for the same money a 1x12 or 1x15 is a lot more likely to have a better horn than the same-priced 2x15.

 

 

I ws speaking within the same line ... eg. an SP4 as compared to an SP2 or 5 with an SP118 sub. They all have the same HF driver.

 

The top/sub combo will have a little lower frequency response (maybe 5 - 10Hz) and will have a better IM distortion spec as you noted. On the other hand the SP4 will have more 60-80Hz output (read that "kick drum") than the combination will. The HF performance of both will be almost identical.

 

My point is that properly done dual 15" cabs are not "evil" as they are constantly refered to on this board. It's just a different way of doing things that works out well for a number of people. Personally, I'd prefer to do it with seperates ... but ... it takes more work, there is more chance to screw it up and it takes longer to set it up. Different strokes baby:thu:

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I ws speaking within the same line ... eg. an SP4 as compared to an SP2 or 5 with an SP118 sub. They all have the same HF driver. The top/sub combo will have a little lower frequency response (maybe 5 - 10Hz) and will have a better IM distortion spec as you noted. On the other hand the SP4 will have more 60-80Hz output (read that "kick drum") than the combination will. The HF performance of both will be almost identical. My point is that properly done dual 15" cabs are not "evil" as they are constantly refered to on this board. It's just a different way of doing things that works out well for a number of people. Personally, I'd prefer to do it with seperates ... but ... it takes more work, there is more chance to screw it up and it takes longer to set it up. Different strokes baby:thu:

 

 

 

I don't think anyone here has dismissed the format outright...I've always seen the condition that I placed...that in the entry-level price point they are typically very poorly done, and enjoy sales not because they sound good but because they are 'big' and promise more than they deliver. The fact that the format has been "improved" by quasi-3-way crossing would also indicate admission of the weakness in midrange clarity plaguing the design. Inexpensive 15's rarely do midrange very well, and the higher crossing point required by inexpensive smaller compression horns forces the cone driver into this unenviable position.

 

There are no 'always'' or 'never's' in my book, but in the price range, I feel confident that you can usually do better with other rigs. But definitely....diff'rent strokes:)

[agedhorse]

The problem I see with many dual 15's is that they are still an entry level speaker and use a HF horn/driver combo. and x-over frequency that is just inappropriate for the job.

 

It CAN be done very well, the JBL SRX, and the Peavey DTH were well executed and pretty good sounding, but hardly inexpensive.

 

Built as a powered box with DSP and a real pro engineer programming the parameters with the aid of real tools (ie. Anechoic chamber, time domain measurement) can yield some tremendous results... if that;s the desired speaker style. But it won't be entry level or cheap.