Members Weathered Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 Too bad more sound people don't approach is somewhat like that. I really get sick of the exaggerated 4-5K HEAD EAST/METALLICA "click" too. And using the bass guitar somewhat to add "notes" to the kick is a cool way to think. When I started mixing on bigger rigs, the guy that I was working with said "If you've got a great drummer and bassist, you should EQ the kick and bass together, so that you really can't tell where one ends and the other begins." I personally try to use as little strip EQ as possible, and boosting almost always sounds more "artificial" to me than cutting does, so I try and cut what I don't like. And yes - that clicky kick drum is cool for metal, but for most rock, country, blues, etc, I prefer less click. I also swear by the Beta52, because the Audix D6 sounds like a sample to me, and the D112 sounds like 1985. :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bighud Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 For a rant: I hate drummers that show up with a band that has PLENTY of stage volume. Then he has no hole in the kick, then wonders why the bass isn't hitting hard during their set. After the set I completely explain how that good hitting bass is gotten and they seem completely baffled. Then get really upset at even the idea of having to put a hole in the head. Then I suggest having one permanently mounted inside so there's no need for a hole in the head.... Then I get " Do you think I'm {censored}ing made of money here?" So then I give them the three options ! Cough up the cash and install a mic 2> Cut a damn hole in the head 3. Be a dumbass and let the thing sound like {censored} all the time because they're too {censored}ing stupid to listen to anyone that knows what they're saying. Whewww. RANT OFF. LOL If you have a MD 421 that is not being used anywhere, this can get you that big kick sound without a sound hole. It requires alot of gain though and can be cranked with minimal bleed cause of the great rejection. My personal favorite on kicks without a hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Q moder Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 Yup its a fad. Started not by musicians or the audience. But by a small group of people that call themselves soundman. There is really not much point in a loud kick. Its not even really a sound its more something thats felt. So why is it so important? Answer is not. There are of course some legitimate soundmen. However there are some who are really fustrated musicians. They tried to play. But can't and finally some real musician broke it to them. So they decieded that they would show these musicians. They would work the sound and make it sound the way they wanted it to sound, not like the musicians wanted it, or the audience. They would impose their own will one way or another. For instance one example the soundman goes up on stage and demands that the drummer (A Musician) cut a hole in his bass drum to get the sound that the sound man (A Musician wanna) wants. The poor drummer is at a lost. He see's no reason to cut a hole in his drum head for this kick chest thump that this now really upset none musician wants. Then the wanna be a musician now control freak Hitler style storm trooper storms off the stage cursing the poor drummer and telling every one what and idot the drummer is and he the soundman is sultan of sound. I would imagine that this soundman would probably cut down the vocals and the instruments in order to get his kicks and that by the time he's done the musicians now sound like they are all in a tin box. But there is a kick man so its music now that the soundman has spoken. If the kick is so all important then why not just get a click track. Then run it thru the channel of the Pa that is course the loudest and leave the drummer alone. When the kick is that loud it covers up the music until the point that no real music is heard just a kick (probably what that soundman wants). I don't know about anybody else but I don't like to pay to hear a show where the kick covers up every thing else. I have no desire to be punched in the chest either. I suppose its alright for a rap act maybe but not a rock band. If I go to a show and the kick is not too loud I always make it a point to tell the soundman musician that I appreciate his work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 Yup its a fad. Started not by musicians or the audience. But by a small group of people that call themselves soundman. There is really not much point in a loud kick. Its not even really a sound its more something thats felt. So why is it so important? Answer is not. There are of course some legitimate soundmen. However there are some who are really fustrated musicians. They tried to play. But can't and finally some real musician broke it to them. So they decieded that they would show these musicians. They would work the sound and make it sound the way they wanted it to sound, not like the musicians wanted it, or the audience. They would impose their own will one way or another. For instance one example the soundman goes up on stage and demands that the drummer (A Musician) cut a hole in his bass drum to get the sound that the sound man (A Musician wanna) wants. The poor drummer is at a lost. He see's no reason to cut a hole in his drum head for this kick chest thump that this now really upset none musician wants. Then the wanna be a musician now control freak Hitler style storm trooper storms off the stage cursing the poor drummer and telling every one what and idot the drummer is and he the soundman is sultan of sound. I would imagine that this soundman would probably cut down the vocals and the instruments in order to get his kicks and that by the time he's done the musicians now sound like they are all in a tin box. But there is a kick man so its music now that the soundman has spoken. If the kick is so all important then why not just get a click track. Then run it thru the channel of the Pa that is course the loudest and leave the drummer alone. When the kick is that loud it covers up the music until the point that no real music is heard just a kick (probably what that soundman wants). I don't know about anybody else but I don't like to pay to hear a show where the kick covers up every thing else. I have no desire to be punched in the chest either. I suppose its alright for a rap act maybe but not a rock band. If I go to a show and the kick is not too loud I always make it a point to tell the soundman musician that I appreciate his work. Well, too much of anything, kick or otherwise, is a bad thing. There is a major difference between a nice, fat full kick tone that defines the music and an over-the-top kick that buries everything. I like the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 Q Moder is now showing us how inexperienced he is with the pro audio AND touring act world. Mr. Moder, do you really think the big, successful touring acts are so stupid as to let some rogue sound guy run rough-shod over them. Of course not, there is quite a tight, cooperative nature as to how the general band sound is arrived at and the big bottom end, while not something I particularly care for, is something that many rock type artists want. It's up to the sound guy to work with the band and production manager to make this happen. That is why many acts spend a week or so in rehersal before hitting the road. We happen to have done a lot of "first day on a tour" shows and have sat through a day of production rehersals and the shows themselves and believe me, when the bandmembers wander out (individually) to FOH to listen to the mix, they guide this process too. You seem to be into bashing the sound guys with your rude, condecending remarks. When you open your mounth like that, it says a lot about your experience my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Q moder Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 Agreed. Cheers to no excesses. No aged I never said a word about any big touring act letting some bozo run their sound. They would not stand for it. Your putting words in my mouth that are not there. If your taking offense it might be that you are one of "those soundmen". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 No aged I never said a word about any big touring act letting some bozo run their sound. They would not stand for it. Your putting words in my mouth that are not there. If your taking offense it might be that you are one of "those soundmen". Started not by musicians or the audience. But by a small group of people that call themselves soundman. This seems to be a pretty universal statement. Perhaps you could identify that "small group of people that call themselves soundmen"??? I'm taking offense at the rude way you presented your comments. I wouldn't be "one of THOSE soundmen" because the acts I work for do not particularly care for that style nor do I. BUT, I respect the tough job of those who do work for these types of acts, it's a style popular to the younger audience and for music with a little bit of attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Q moder Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 I already did identify them. As was put Tbone there is no excess in good music. But thats just our way of thinking. Your free to your own opinion of course as are we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 I already did identify them. As was put Tbone there is no excess in good music. But thats just our way of thinking. Your free to your own opinion of course as are we.Well, I'm much more in agreement with Andy on this. A good soundtech should understand the sound that the act is looking for and try to accomplish it, regardless of their personal tastes. If there is a heavy kick, or whatever, you seem to think that there is no chance at all that it is being put there because of the desires of the act being reinforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Q moder Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 I agree completely. So he should not be attempting to cut holes in the drummers bass drum either simply because he thinks it would be cool or that he would like to boost up the annoying sound. I dout that any thing like that would have been said to any major act.It would be more along the lines of "Why yes sir whatever you say sir", end quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 If you have a MD 421 that is not being used anywhere, this can get you that big kick sound without a sound hole. It requires alot of gain though and can be cranked with minimal bleed cause of the great rejection. My personal favorite on kicks without a hole. With the room I have to work with I still get a lot of bleed. I borrowed a 421 for a while and tried it out. It was better but not better enough to spend the cash on one right now. I'm slowly replacing the entire PA in this club so when the money comes up for new mics a 421 is one that will be on the list. and for Qmoder I'll give an example of the people I'm talking about. I have had quite a few bands come in and the drummer has no hole in the kick. I do the best I can to position the mic where I can have the best chance of getting a full kick (not a bash the {censored} out of everyone kick). However, they end up with a stage volume of 115db or so (yes I checked 6 different bands that came in and were almost right at 115 db in stage volume constant on A weighting). Then you have the singer who can't hear {censored} now and needs so much monitor it's crazy. With that sonic {censored}storm onstage it just bleeds into the kick mic. Even with a gate, once the gate opens the kick gets lost in the other crap bleeding in, OR I have to keep the gate so tight that the kick just doesn't cut through. These are the people that need a hole in the kick drum because they won't stand up to the other members and have some kind of volume control onstage. This doesn't make me some nazi wanna be musician soundman. I AM a musician, I AM a singer, and I AM a soundman. Most musicians have no idea what it's like to be a soundman and put up with people that have no clue about anything sonic and how to make a room sound good. They walk in and crank to 10, ruin the mix completely and then wonder why you are giving tham a hard time. Conversely, a soundman that has been a musician knows what it's like on both sides and what can ruin a great mix, and the reverse, a musician that has been a soundman knows what the guy has to deal with and will usually change his way of doing things onstage for his benefit and the overall sounds benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 If the band's "sound" requires that there be a hole in the kick in order to achieve this, then the options are either a hole in the kick or a compromise in the sound that the band gets. Either way is totally acceptable to me as long as the band understands and accepts the compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 If the band's "sound" requires that there be a hole in the kick in order to achieve this, then the options are either a hole in the kick or a compromise in the sound that the band gets. Either way is totally acceptable to me as long as the band understands and accepts the compromise. Exactly, I completely agree, however, 8 times out of 10 the band doesn't even come close to understanding what the problem is. I try to calmly and easily explain the problems to them so that they do understand what's going on. It's my job to make them sound as good as possible. If doing that entails me sitting down with the guys and explaining to them exactly where the problems lie then I'll do it, not to be an asshole, but to help educate someone who honestly doesn't know. I've had more than a few guys look at me and say" huh, I never thought of it that way, let's try it" when I suggest a different amp placement for better stage volume and clarity. Sometimes they like it, sometimes they don't. But they always left the gig knowing that I was doing whatever I could to help them hear better onstage and sound better for the audience. Mind you that I'm talking about local and regional club bands, usually younger guys, not major artists that carry all their PA and all that crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted November 9, 2007 Members Share Posted November 9, 2007 Exactly, I completely agree, however, 8 times out of 10 the band doesn't even come close to understanding what the problem is. I try to calmly and easily explain the problems to them so that they do understand what's going on.It's my job to make them sound as good as possible. If doing that entails me sitting down with the guys and explaining to them exactly where the problems lie then I'll do it, not to be an asshole, but to help educate someone who honestly doesn't know. I've had more than a few guys look at me and say" huh, I never thought of it that way, let's try it" when I suggest a different amp placement for better stage volume and clarity. Sometimes they like it, sometimes they don't. But they always left the gig knowing that I was doing whatever I could to help them hear better onstage and sound better for the audience. Mind you that I'm talking about local and regional club bands, usually younger guys, not major artists that carry all their PA and all that crap. I do this from time to time, as well. It usually happens when they're the opener, and I mix the headliner, and it sounds better than they did. I usually get the "Why do they sound so much better than we did?" question, and I usually just explain to them a few areas that they could work to improve their sound. From time to time, that includes putting a hole in their kick drum head (I don't usually run into drummers that don't have a hole in their kick), but it could also involve: not cupping the mic, keeping the guitar level down, dialing in the amps to fit in the mix better, so on and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 9, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 Yup its a fad. Started not by musicians or the audience. But by a small group of people that call themselves soundman. And you know this how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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