Members boomerweps Posted August 2, 2007 Members Share Posted August 2, 2007 Agedhorse gave you some good settings. I've read that using a 48dB LR filter can cause ringing, it's rarely recommended. I was surprised at your UNDERLAPPED crossover point, plus it was a little lower than I would start with but I have no experience with those speakers. Once you find the sweet spot frequency that you want emphasize on the kick, IF it's around the crossover point, you can try overlapping, i.e., 100Hz low pass on the subs and 90Hz hi pass on the tops. Also, did I read correctly that you are using the filters in the XTI power amp AND use a Driverack? Regardless, you can go to the JBLpro website and find the recommended settings for most ANY JBL speakers for manually setting in the driverack. They would be useable for the XTIs filters, I'd guess. Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ned911 Posted August 2, 2007 Author Members Share Posted August 2, 2007 No using the XTI filters for the sub that are the same as the DR260 settings. Then using a DBX 223XL for the tops (powered by a QSC PLX2402), I need to get a second XTI for the tops. Not sure why the DR260 has it underlapped. I'll input Agedhorse's settings and try those out along with the other suggestions. Our gate is a PV XG5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted August 2, 2007 Members Share Posted August 2, 2007 If you've ever heard a system with GOOD lo-mids, you might not say the above statement. I LOVE me some lo-mids Honestly I've never heard a system with good low-mids, if there is such a thing. IMO I figure a system with "good" lo-mids has them eq'd out a tad... That area always has a lot of woof and rumble that doesn't really do anything for me. I like for the hi-mids to come through and generally all the 250hz area does is muddy that up. I like 120hz though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 2, 2007 Members Share Posted August 2, 2007 Sometimes, underlapping or overlapping is used to accomodate an acoustic summation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted August 3, 2007 Members Share Posted August 3, 2007 I haven't heard too many kick drums that 250Hz was a friend of. Different kicks, different mics, I still finding myself cutting something in that general 250Hz area. Yep. Also realize that the feel of the kick is in the 50-75 hz range and the chest thump is somewhere in the 120-150 hz range, with the modern clickiness in the 3-5K area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gomer Pyle Posted August 3, 2007 Members Share Posted August 3, 2007 A lot of drummers tune the kick too low. If it sounds flabby it will never have any punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted August 3, 2007 Members Share Posted August 3, 2007 250hz isn't an enemy of mine, I just don't do much with him. Now 6.3k and 140hz and I just don't get along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smitty0069 Posted August 3, 2007 Members Share Posted August 3, 2007 I believe the low EQ on a MixWiz is at 60 hz, Hmmm.......I thought those were centered at 80hz. I could be FOS though as I don't have one. Anyone know for sure? Not that it really matters......just curious now. Smitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted August 3, 2007 Members Share Posted August 3, 2007 I'm probably wrong, would be the 1723rd time I was.. Maybe my GL has the 60hz low shelf. the new Mixwiz3 has 12k and 80hz shelving, mine's the older one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members swill777 Posted August 6, 2007 Members Share Posted August 6, 2007 I don't necesarily think comp. is critical.....if needed at all honestly. Inserting a gate is much more likely to give you that quick punch you are looking for.Fairly quick attack & release w/ a fair amount of gain reduction will make that gate open & shut quickly which will probably give you the punch you're looking for. The only issue with that is if the drummer is inconsitent with the kick hits.. if it is too light, it may barely open the gate. What I do is compress the kick with a 6-10 db ratio, adjust the threshold for about 4-8 db of reduction, then use about a 150-200ms attack to let the thump in, then just dial in the release to 150-300ms (or until the natural kick sound stops). Make sure the soft hits sound somewhat equal to the louder hits. Then set the gate to open and close to let just as much sound as you want thru. Then I would eq. Of course, this is for a metal/rock/punk type of "equal" punchy kick sound. This certainly would not work if you wanted a lot of "feel" in the kick. The best way is really to experiment.. once you find the settings that you like with the particular drum and mic combo, you might want to jot them down for reference. And as mentioned in this thread, tuning is extrememly important for that punchy feel and sound. Too loose won't give any punch, trust me.. I have been thru this with my drummer, and now that the kick is tuned tighter.. its way more punchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 6, 2007 Members Share Posted August 6, 2007 That's an awfully long attack time. You sure that's right? The whole kick signal would fall before the comp ever acts. A frequency tuned (or sidechained) gate will help with gate operation where the signal is quiet relative to other stage noise of a different freq. range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members caseyjf Posted October 30, 2007 Members Share Posted October 30, 2007 where do you prefer mic placement on the kick? do you guys cut a sound hole in the front? I'm a guitar player and run our sound; when I sit down just to screw around on the drums- the kick sounds a lot fuller and more resonant from the throne vs. the front - any comment on putting a mic on that side (the throne side)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 30, 2007 Members Share Posted October 30, 2007 I would recommend that you don't boost the GEQ on the mains. Do it in the input channel. If you do it in the mains it boosts everything ... including a bunch of low end gack picked up in your vocal mics. If you use your channel low-cuts, it really shouldn't be a problem on vocals, etc. But ya, if you just want it on the kick, just do it on the kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted October 30, 2007 Members Share Posted October 30, 2007 where do you prefer mic placement on the kick? do you guys cut a sound hole in the front? I'm a guitar player and run our sound; when I sit down just to screw around on the drums- the kick sounds a lot fuller and more resonant from the throne vs. the front - any comment on putting a mic on that side (the throne side)? To get the base kick sound, IMO, it needs to be inside the drum. If you're looking at the drum head from the outside opposite the throne. Imagine a clock. I try to get the mic at about 2 o'clock, halfway between each head, facing the beater head, and about 1/2 from the shell. That has always seemed to be the sweet spot. For a rant: I hate drummers that show up with a band that has PLENTY of stage volume. Then he has no hole in the kick, then wonders why the bass isn't hitting hard during their set. After the set I completely explain how that good hitting bass is gotten and they seem completely baffled. Then get really upset at even the idea of having to put a hole in the head. Then I suggest having one permanently mounted inside so there's no need for a hole in the head.... Then I get " Do you think I'm {censored}ing made of money here?" So then I give them the three options ! Cough up the cash and install a mic 2> Cut a damn hole in the head 3. Be a dumbass and let the thing sound like {censored} all the time because they're too {censored}ing stupid to listen to anyone that knows what they're saying. Whewww. RANT OFF. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted October 30, 2007 Members Share Posted October 30, 2007 I hate when I go to bars and the bass is so intense that I feel it in my chest.. One time I went to a club show and it was so intense that I had to leave because I felt like I was suffocating. The Boulder Acoustic Society played here the other night, and they had a local bluegrass band open up for them... which they sounded pretty good... but the bass was up so loud it was making me want to puke. I had left my ear plugs at home for once, figuring that i would not need them... WRONG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted October 30, 2007 Members Share Posted October 30, 2007 where do you prefer mic placement on the kick? do you guys cut a sound hole in the front? I'm a guitar player and run our sound; when I sit down just to screw around on the drums- the kick sounds a lot fuller and more resonant from the throne vs. the front - any comment on putting a mic on that side (the throne side)? A hole in the resonant head always makes it easier to mic the kick. The drums get tuned for the best sound to the drummer, no surprise there. So mic through the hole in the resonant front gets you the batter head sound. However, I disagree with Crownman. Good drums, tuned well can be miced from outside the resonant with NO hole. The AKG D112 works well for this. I won't list all the top drummers that have holeless resonants but check out Steve Smith's videos. When I first bought my Pearl MRX 20x16, it sounded so good with the heads intact. I miced it with an AKG D12E on a small folding tripod desk stand placed under the floor tom aimed at the bass batter head. It worked but not as well as my old 22x18 with the same mic inside. When using an intact kick resonant, many use TWO mics with a dedicated kick mic on the front for the thump and something like an SM57 on the back facing the bass beater for the inmpact/click. Either way, the drummer should be open to tuning suggestions for what works for a given PA sound. Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 30, 2007 Members Share Posted October 30, 2007 The Boulder Acoustic Society played here the other night, and they had a local bluegrass band open up for them... which they sounded pretty good... but the bass was up so loud it was making me want to puke. I had left my ear plugs at home for once, figuring that i would not need them... WRONG.Were the banjos and mandolins down-tuned????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted October 30, 2007 Members Share Posted October 30, 2007 A hole in the resonant head always makes it easier to mic the kick. The drums get tuned for the best sound to the drummer, no surprise there. So mic through the hole in the resonant front gets you the batter head sound. However, I disagree with Crownman. Good drums, tuned well can be miced from outside the resonant with NO hole. The AKG D112 works well for this. I won't list all the top drummers that have holeless resonants but check out Steve Smith's videos.When I first bought my Pearl MRX 20x16, it sounded so good with the heads intact. I miced it with an AKG D12E on a small folding tripod desk stand placed under the floor tom aimed at the bass batter head. It worked but not as well as my old 22x18 with the same mic inside.When using an intact kick resonant, many use TWO mics with a dedicated kick mic on the front for the thump and something like an SM57 on the back facing the bass beater for the inmpact/click.Either way, the drummer should be open to tuning suggestions for what works for a given PA sound.Boomerweps I wasn't really talking about professionals when I was ranting about the hole in the drum. 99.9% of the time when lI deal with this problem it's with bands that don't know any better. They have too many amps turned up too loud, then I have to leave the kick mic out in this sonic mess on the stage. Then they get mad at me because I can't get the thump on the kick that they want. Inexperienced people that think everything should magicly sound great because they happen own good equipment are the ones who annoy me. In a pro situation where things are tailored like that because the drummer knows what he's doing and wants it that way.... well that's a completely different scenario than the one I was ranting about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flip333 Posted November 2, 2007 Members Share Posted November 2, 2007 When I used a DBX 266xl gate on the kick, I could tell a big difference. I am just doing small stuff now and no longer need big sound. See my ad in the live sound sale section. $80 shipped DBX 266xl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Q moder Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 The loud kick thing is a fad that is long over due to end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 The loud kick thing is a fad that is long over due to end. Ya, its only been a fad for, what, 35 years? If the music overall is loud, the kick will be loud too if you want a full range tone. Obviously, too much is too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gomer Pyle Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 Honky Tonk Women Kick almost 40 years now, don't think it will be ending anytime soon, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 I treat my kick a little differently than most techs I know. I really dislike the 4k slap - it seems to get overbearing to me. I almost always end up cutting anywhere between 200 hz and 400 hz (usually cut 4-12 dB, depending on how good the drummer is at tuning their kick drum) and I also cut somewhere between 1k and 2.5k to take out the "honky" midrange that I sometimes hear. I don't generally have to boost the lows or highs to make the kick fit, so I don't end up with that "artificial" high mid thing going on. I use my kick and bass guitar as the "foundation" of my mix - the kick tends to "drive" the music, so I EQ the bass to add a note to the kick drum, and then layer everything on top of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 I treat my kick a little differently than most techs I know. I really dislike the 4k slap - it seems to get overbearing to me.I almost always end up cutting anywhere between 200 hz and 400 hz (usually cut 4-12 dB, depending on how good the drummer is at tuning their kick drum) and I also cut somewhere between 1k and 2.5k to take out the "honky" midrange that I sometimes hear. I don't generally have to boost the lows or highs to make the kick fit, so I don't end up with that "artificial" high mid thing going on.I use my kick and bass guitar as the "foundation" of my mix - the kick tends to "drive" the music, so I EQ the bass to add a note to the kick drum, and then layer everything on top of that.Too bad more sound people don't approach is somewhat like that. I really get sick of the exaggerated 4-5K HEAD EAST/METALLICA "click" too. And using the bass guitar somewhat to add "notes" to the kick is a cool way to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members axeman6969 Posted November 7, 2007 Members Share Posted November 7, 2007 To paraphrase Dave Rat, no one ever went home humming the kick drum.... This is true, and I love Dave Rat. But, "Treble never got the party started" Flamesuit on..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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