Members Gary in NJ Posted March 25, 2008 Members Share Posted March 25, 2008 I've been using Peavey PR12N speakers for the last year. They are, without a doubt, the weakest link of my sound system. I have contemplated replacing them many times, but never made a decision. Before I go any further, let me get this out of the way. I'm a tinkerer. Actually, I'm way beyond a tinkerer. When I wanted to own an airplane, I built one. When I wanted to own my first house, I built one. I work on my motorcycles and my cars. If I'm not thinking about a project, I'm not happy. I like to do things myself - my way. There is always a better way to do things and I enjoy discovering new things. So it is with this spirit of do-it-myself that I share this story. This story isn't about making the ultimate speaker cabinet. Quite the opposite; this story is about taking complete crap and discovering if I can make it into less crap. OK, some background is in order. I had the opportunity to take a look into my PR12N's the other day when I went to borrow the speaker for use in one of my monitors. When I removed the speaker I was shocked to find out that Peavey made no-none-nada effort to make the PR12N sound good. Look at the picture below. I now understand why the PR12N's sound like hollow boxes - THEY ARE! [ATTACH]259687[/ATTACH][ATTACH]259688[/ATTACH] So it got me thinking. The Peavey Impulse 1012 is the same box as the PR12. With a little effort, could I make a PR12 sound as good as a 1012 - which is a decent speaker. Then I thought about it a bit more a decided that I wanted my speaker to sound different then a 1012, this way my "Frankinspeaker" couldn't be called some sort of Impulse rip-off. The first thing I decided to do was line the box with sound deadening material. I went to Home Depot and purchased some Kraft-Faced R-13. The R-13 was twice as think as the material I wanted to use, which was perfect because I could cut once, and split it into two. I also picked-up some building adhesive to secure the R-13 to the box. If I was to do this again, I'd use spray adhesive. So I completely disassembled the box, removing the cross-over and the RX-14 compression driver. This way I wouldn't damage anything inside the box as I moved around with the caulk gun. I placed sound deadening material on the back of the box, the top and on all side surfaces FORWARD of the sound ports. This will allow enough smooth and clean surface for sound to reflect and escape the box through the ports. Besides, if the box sounds too dead, it's a lot easier to remove the R-13 then to get back in there and add material. The photo below shows the box with the R-13, cross-over and RX-14 installed. [ATTACH]259689[/ATTACH][ATTACH]259690[/ATTACH] Choosing the right drivers is the biggest unknown for me. It would have been easy to order a Peavey 1208-8 Black Widow for the woofer - but it seemed a bit too easy. So, instead I ordered a Eminence Delta Pro-12A. This seems about right for that box. If one can believe the specs, it has greater SPL output and the same 50Hz capability. Weighing 16 pounds, both the Delta Pro-12A and the 1208-8 are heavy speakers - 11 pounds heavier then the Pro-12 in the PR. Truth be told, I don't know a damn thing about choosing the correct driver. I tried to understand the specs but I couldn't. In the end I chose the Eminence because it was different. The speakers should be here later this week. With just a eight screws to install in each box, I should be up and running in minutes. I didn't make any decisions on the compression driver yet. I never thought that the PR12 sounded poorly in the upper frequencies. Of course, with better woofers, the RX-14 may now be the weak link. If I think the box is out of balance, I'll install the RX-22 from the 1012 Impulse. I also decided not to change the cross-over. All of my speaker cable is 1/4" ($300 worth of cable) and I don't really feel like changing all of my cables to Speakrons. I "think" my crossover is 1,800 HZ. Once again, if the cabinets seem too mid-rangy, I can always change-out the x-over. Now all of the nay-sayers will say "dude you spent $250 on boxes that have no value." They may have no value to you, but they are MY boxes. Here is an opportunity for me to learn how to (or how not to) build a speaker. It's been fun doing the research and I'm sure I'm not done yet. Here's the scary part. I have to use these for a gig Friday night. If they sound like utter crap, I can always turn them back into PR12N's. But my guess is they will sound a lot better then what I started with. I'll let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 25, 2008 Members Share Posted March 25, 2008 There is free speaker software out there. Winisn I think it's called? Put the speaker you have in and the box and port dimensions and it will give you a frequency graph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 25, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted March 25, 2008 The fact that you're still here posting either means you never flew it, or you put a lot more effort into the research part of building the airplane than you did this driver replacement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted March 25, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 25, 2008 LOL, Yeah, the RV-6 took me over 2,000 hours to build and I have put over 500 hours of flying time on it. I put 20 minutes into the driver selection. I should have gotten the 1208, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IKILLEDKENNY54 Posted March 25, 2008 Members Share Posted March 25, 2008 I did almost the same thing with Delta 12A's in some JBL molded boxes I had. I used an Eminence PSD2002 compression driver with an active crossover and run it bi amped. I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 25, 2008 Members Share Posted March 25, 2008 The fact that you're still here posting either means you never flew it, or you put a lot more effort into the research part of building the airplane than you did this driver replacement! Thinking pretty much the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted March 28, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2008 I got the speakers delivered today. I thought it would be a simple 5 minute installation. Wrong. The pole cup that is molded into the bottom of the speaker box interfered with the speaker fitment. So I had to modify the shape of the pole cup. Even so, the speakers didn't want to sit-down in the (molded) speaker cut-out. The speaker, or the hole, were off by about 1/64th. Enough so that it took a hammer and a piece of wood to get the speaker to sit-down properly. 5 minutes, no. One hour, yes. So how do they sound? Not much different. The boominess is certainly gone, but that's because the boxes are now lined with insulation. They definitely have more output between 800 and 1,500 Hz; enough that I had to cut about 3 to 6db in those frequencies. But to be fair, I was playing them in my garage (a very live room) with MP3 music. Quite frankly, I'm not use to hearing them in my garage as I never set-up FOH for rehearsals, so it really isn't a fair comparison. If you remember, I unnecessarily ordered an Eminence Beta 12A-2 for a Club III monitor. That speaker came in too, so I installed it to hear how it sounded compared to the modified PR12's. The Club, with a lower line Eminence speaker, sounded better then the Peaveys with a higher line Eminence. But that was mounted on the floor and I was standing right in front of it. But I will say this about the Eminence Delta Pro-12A loaded PR12's - they might not sound great, but they are heavier. Tomorrow I'll (or the audience) get to hear them with live music in a proper environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted March 28, 2008 Members Share Posted March 28, 2008 With all that insulation in there, I wonder how the reduced volume of the box will affect the low end response. Considering the lack of bracing for the woofer, why didn't you consider a neo magnet speaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 28, 2008 Members Share Posted March 28, 2008 I'm not absolutely sure, but the Beta 12 may have been a downgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted March 28, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2008 I lined the boxes with about 1" of insulation, leaving a good portion open for porting. The same boxes are used for the Impulse 1012's; the Delta Pro and the BW1208 weigh the same, so bracing isn't a concern. The stock Yamaha speaker in the Club may have sounded better when it was new, but the one I removed was flat-out worn. The Beta 12A-2 sounds better then the worn-out Yamaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted March 28, 2008 Members Share Posted March 28, 2008 I'm not absolutely sure, but the Beta 12 may have been a downgrade. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it wouldn't have been. Peavey loves to tout their speaker names "black widow", "scorpion", etc. Even they don't name what's in this sub $200 box. It's officially called - One 12 inch premium, 2 3/8 inch voice coil woofer. Anyway, I was thinking more like a Deltalite, provided the specs made sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted March 28, 2008 Members Share Posted March 28, 2008 I'm going to go out on a limb and say it wouldn't have been. Peavey loves to tout their speaker names "black widow", "scorpion", etc. Even they don't name what's in this sub $200 box. It's officially called - One 12 inch premium, 2 3/8 inch voice coil woofer. Anyway, I was thinking more like a Deltalite, provided the specs made sense. Read it again. The Beta went into a Yamaha Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted March 28, 2008 Members Share Posted March 28, 2008 Read it again. The Beta went into a Yamaha Club. I'm not talking about a Beta. I'm talking about a Deltalite or similar good neo mag speaker. My question/suggstion was just simply, to keep thing light and not stress out a cheap plastic box, why not use a lighter woofer. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 28, 2008 Members Share Posted March 28, 2008 The Deltalite would have been my choice PROVIDED it has suitable TS parameters for the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted March 29, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 29, 2008 OK, here's some gig experience and, more importantly, gig feedback on the speakers. First my impression. They are 12 pounds heavier. They are louder. I usually run the Main slider between 0 and -5. Last night we were too loud at -5 and I ran the slider at about a -7 position. Now the feedback. By the way, I didn't tell anyone that I had made any changes to the speakers, so these comments are completely honest and were 100% unsolicited. "It's the most balanced you've ever sounded. The vocals really cut through tonight" "I've never heard you sound clearer" "You need to turn-up the treble, it sounds too muddy" "I don't know what changed, but you guys sounded really tight tonight" The comment about being too muddy came from a complete stranger. After I added about a 4db gain on the channel strip for each input he gave me a thumbs up and told me it was much better. In all, I'd have to say that the $220 was money well spent. I didn't get the "oh my God, that's much better" that I was looking for, but it was a noticeable improvement to people that regularly come-out to hear us. I think I will change-out the compression drivers to a Peavey RX22 or Eminence NSD-2005S. to get the output of the HF more inline with that of the MF & LF. This should give the boxes better balance. If anyone has an opinion as to which is better (any why) I'd like to hear your input. I'm hoping this will give me what I'm looking for without having to change the crossover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 30, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 Glad it worked out for the better! So how much would it wind up costing you to upgrade all four drivers (LF and comp) compared with upgrading to an Impulse 1012? That seems like a good way to judge your net savings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted March 30, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 30, 2008 Glad it worked out for the better! So how much would it wind up costing you to upgrade all four drivers (LF and comp) compared with upgrading to an Impulse 1012? That seems like a good way to judge your net savings. Good point (a very good point). Impulse 1012's have a street price of $940 for the pair. Here's the math on what I have done, or will do after I upgrade the compression drivers: 2 each Peavey PR12N - $3402 each Eminence Delta Pro - $2202 each RX12 or NSD-2005 - $200 Total Investment - $760 Now, if I sold my PR12's instead of upgrading them I would have gotten about $150 for the pair. That would make my net cost on the Impulse 1012's $790. On the surface, the math doesn't seem to work. But, the $340 spent on the PR's were a sunk cost 12 months ago. I only had to shell out $420 today, versus the $940 for the 1012's and the hassle of an eBay auction for the PR12's. The $500 doesn't really matter to me. That's a single club gig. Like I said from the get-go, the motivation for this project was to do it myself - to see if I could better understand how all of the separate elements of a speaker enclosure work together. I got the education I was looking for. I'm sure that I'll be upgrading these modified speakers in a year (my band members on the forum cringe) because there are so many speakers out there that sound better. I'll may return them back to PR12's and sell the Eminence components separately, or just try sell them as is. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted March 30, 2008 Members Share Posted March 30, 2008 Ya, I'd have definitely gone with Eminence or B&C neo-mag woofers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 30, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 Before you replace the HF drivers, be sure you don't need to replace the crossovers too....that would really tip the scales the wrong way, and just doing the LF drivers would be the smart move then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted March 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 31, 2008 Before you replace the HF drivers, be sure you don't need to replace the crossovers too....that would really tip the scales the wrong way, and just doing the LF drivers would be the smart move then. How would I know if the x-over should be upgraded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted March 31, 2008 Members Share Posted March 31, 2008 Great to hear a success story:thu: I upgraded some old Fender E115 once I bought them before I found this place and went by the brand name and thought Fender made quality PA cabs boy was I dead wrong. I replaced the drivers, horns and x-over after that the cabs sounded waaaay better and could take twice the power then the old factory specs 200 RMS. I jumped it up to 400 RMS thanks to Mark over audiopile for his APX drivers and Andy's (Agedhorse) suggestions on which x-over to get. I turn those POS cabs into a usable still going strong today. I sold to another band that still uses them gig after gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 31, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 How would I know if the x-over should be upgraded? Probably Don Boomer could let you know for sure. I'm guessing that the power handling could be increased in the 1012, and possibly uses a different crossing frequency. Basically just check the specs between the PR and the Impulse to see what they do. If it's close I wouldn't bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted March 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 31, 2008 The PR12's are crossed at 1,500Hz The 1012's are crossed at 1.800Hz The Peavey RX22 has a Freq Response of 500 to 20K Hz with 111db SPL. The Eminence NSD-2005S has a "Usable" Freq Response of 500 to 16K Hz with 111db SPL. The 1012 x-over is good to 1,000 watts, the PR at 400 watts. I'm OK with the lower threshold because it is more in line with the power handling of the speakers and my amp output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted April 1, 2008 Members Share Posted April 1, 2008 If you change any of the components you'll need to change the crossover too. Crossovers are designed for specific components in a specific cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted April 1, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 Straight from the horse's mouth. Even if he gets his feed at a different barn today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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